Montana threatening Secession !

Originally posted by barmshadow84


If our Goverement TORTUES peolpe to save Americian lives, THen torture all you want. Go get em. If taping phone calls also saves Americian lives then tape away. There's already computers that listen for key-phrases in-country it's the out of country call's and like on a higher level.
Personally I'am glad George Bush is President.
We went into Iraq on bad info. the same info the world got., T

Wow,, some people just don't get it and with all due respect,, you seem to be one of them. A hallmark of America is freedom, civil rights, human rights, the right to a fair trial, the right to privacy with protections from illegal search and seizure. The RIGHT to keep and bear arms without encroachment.

The right to habeas corpus and the right to petition the supreme court for redress of grievances when our government does not oblige. These are the rights that Americans have died for over the many years we have sent our sons and daughters to fight to keep. They are in fact the very essence of what IS America and what is so coveted and admired the world over up until a certain tyrant took office. My GOD man don't you see that? You would have us give it all up out of fear?

Every one who has ever fought and died for the very freedoms you have left would be for nothing. Yes I understand what it is to be scared but Ill be damned if I am going to give all we have fought for, away to ANYONE be it the terrorists OR a Government that says we must because they think they know whats best for me.

Does the words Give me Liberty or Give me Death make sense to you today as they once did?

Or are you willing to settle for the crumbs of the few liberties the Government will allow you all in the name of safety?

If I have to choose between enemies, I would rather keep my freedom, my rights, and fight terrorists. Even if they were here I would rather fight that way, then fight a much better armed much better financed enemy Government forcing me to comply and relinquish my constitutional rights.

The idea makes a mockery of anyone, past and present who has made the ultimate sacrifice. This President is a liar proving time and time again he not only thinks he is above the law, but has spit in its face by nullifying judicial convictions allowing those who aided and abetted his crimes, to go un-punished.

We hold these truths to be SELF evident meaning that I shouldn't have be explaining it and the importance they have for our individual freedom and to enjoy the benefits of a country where the rule of law is respected and enforced. Those same laws have been bastardized and re-written by a President and his thugs who are on record for making up lies fabricating manufactured evidence that YOU say everyone else got yet you see nothing wrong with that deception. You seem to forget that this President and by the way, I voted for him Twice I regret to say but this president had planned to invade Iraq BEFORE he ever got elected.

Did you forget the secret documents discovered sept 15 2001 titled "Project New American Century" or "PNAC".

Have you forgotten that we paid the telecoms over 200 billion dollars in extra surcharges to have a country with the best broadband internet by 2007 and they haven't replaced the antiquated copper lines to this day resulting in our dropping to 16the in the world for broad band internet.

The same telecom industry that you say we should trust to save us as you are trembling in fear because Bush says things like this

SEE BELOW:

“If these companies are subject to lawsuits that could cost them billions of dollars, they won’t participate; they won’t help us; they won’t help protect America.”

Not only does this Rogue dispicable criminal appear to be saying we should allow some to be above the law, this idiot just admitted to be threatend by the telecoms using extortion methods and blackmail to arrive at his conclusion and to motivate the rest of congress to do the same.

Let me explain something to you,, that had they been held accountable in the discovery process of over 40 law suits, those telecoms being sued would have turned BUSH over for much more Illegal activity then you or i are even aware of. He wasn't scared they wouldn't protect Americans and I don't believe they would refuse to help us even as corrupt as they are. What Bush was attempting to do is SAVE HIS OWN ASS.

They are in fact the Corp Fat Cats I was referring to in my previous post. They have robbed us and spied on us illegally and should be accountable. Yet this President who claims he is a Christian is the kind that gives the rest of us Christians a bad name. He is the same President along with his thugs is on Record to have lied 935 times. The same one that expects us to obey the laws while he exonerates lewis "scooter" Libby commuting his sentence.

Did he have the authority to do that ?

Ironically it is one of the few times he used his power to authorize something legitimately but was a disgusting decision for him to make nevertheless and one of monumental hypocrisy.

One of the most important personality traits I EXPECT from a United States President is HONESTY and INTEGRITY.

I served in the United States Navy 6 years and have been around the world twice. I loved this country so much I was willing to die for her.

Now,, I hardly recognize her.

We have built numerous Detainment Camps in this country for illegal aliens. Yet this President has called them un-documented workers while I see them all over my state of AZ selling meth amphetamines as undocumented pharmacists.

Meanwhile our National Guard who could stem the tide of this scourge, is taken out to be sent to iraq while any real terrorists of arab appearance can blend easily into the Mexican drug runners coming into my state in droves.

So much for that.

If you can't trust your President and you can't get him to obey the damn law then what makes you think he won't do the same to us. How long before this kind of double standard where they convict those while keeping their own immune to the same laws you and I would be jailed for breaking. The buck has to stop somewhere.

It starts with the technology to spy on your phone calls. You think it will end there?

Next people like you will say let them read our mind if it saves lives.

That's coming sooner then you might think

The police state is already here my friend and some have experienced it heh wouldn't you know it, that video has already been taken away. That too, seems to be happening a lot these days.

I think anyone supporting Bush for the reasons you have given should listen to the wisdom of Ben Franklin who said

"He that would trade some of his freedom for security,,

Deserves neither freedom OR security"


Shame on you

- Con



















[edit on 22-2-2008 by Conspiriology]

reply to post by Nailer


I definitely can hear you out as I live in eastern Iowa, near Illinois. I also have some family who live in Illinois. It does anger me that the state has been going the way it has been. We in Iowa have dealing with our own move towards socialization of our state with our Governor making some similar moves like Blawhathisface, even if they aren't as big and radical.

Go Montana!!!Check the montana goverment web site then go to the sec of state page.Thats how I think I found it.

reply to post by Conspiriology

Awesome post.
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You summed up my thoughts much better then I could ever have.

Also to Barmshadow84 and like thinkers:
I also unfortunately voted for Bush twice. I`m not proud of it and in fact used to also say that he kept us safe from terrorism since 9/11 (and I lived in NYC).

I also used to argue right here on the threads, back in 04` when I joined ATS, that it was right to be in Iraq, we got rid of a brutal dictator who had WMD, who killed innocent and that the U.S. was the most powerful in the world and had a responsibility to provide the police for the entire planet Earth. I thought that Bush was a good guy and only wanted what was best for me and my family.

I used to read the posts by the members here who thought the government was conspiring and I used to get mad at their ignorance while I skimmed through their posts (sorry guys).

Well, with out going too much more in depth, I was just like a lot of Americans who just thought that a lot of the ideas of conspiracy were thought up by "nuts".

Well call me NUTS!!

But I`ve noticed a lot of changes in America over the past few years or so. I don`t see the same America as I used to. I`m also Christian, a Catholic, and what I see is pure evil going on all around within government and corporations alike. I have never had a closer relationship with God as I do now, as I see so much trouble for everyone and I pray daily for guidance.

Without going into depth, I will just say I have seen and been through a lot. My life is not how I intended it to be and it kind of went downhill in a lot of directions. You can also say I was victim to conspiracies on much smaller levels, which helped shape things for the worse along with bad decisions on my part. I`ve had a lot of time to think.

One day not too long ago, BAM!! A light bulb goes off in my head and everything starts to make sense._javascript:icon('')
_javascript:icon('') Like a freekin jigsaw puzzle, I can see all the pieces. Everything starts to come together.

It started with 2 simple words: Federal Reserve.
To me this was the Federal Government`s Reserve Bank, the institution in charge of printing money that was backed by something and run by our government._javascript:icon('')
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I knew no different, to me it was common knowledge, not debatable.
Those 2 words can be very tricky because most don`t think about it (I don`t think). It`s only logical to think what I thought and I know there are countless others who think the same way.
Or possibly I was just an idiot for not knowing.

But anyway, after viewing a video someone sent me, I decided to do the research and what I found blew me away. I had no idea or concept of international bankers. I didn`t know a private institution was in charge of our United States currency. I didn`t know that we pay trillions in interest and go into depth to a few people because we "let" them control our money. This led me to research the Rothschilds and their interactions with the U.S. and other countries throughout history which led me to research the Bilderbergs which led me to so many mind blowing facts and ultimately many new conclusions about things.

I came back to ATS after a long time of not being around. I started looking into more things. I did the research about fire melting steel. I`ve looked at arguments from both sides. I`ve watched hundreds of professionals explain things I never understood about physics, demolition, aeronautics, and fact after fact after fact that is scientifically undeniable. I conclude that the overall evidence, and in some cases lack there of, prove that 9/11 is still unexplained by our government, at least truthfully. The answers are all at your fingertips but you have to want to find them and for a long time I never did. I was happy knowing what I knew and content that there was no big conspiracy against myself or anyone else. Well, I guess it took a few little conspiracies to wake me up to the fact that bigger ones are very much possible.

I hate to take this thread too far off topic but to explain why Montana would ever want to secede from the Union is to explain all of these things that more and more Americans are waking up to every day. People who comment on the thread and express their blind trust in government are just like I used to be. They are not dumb or stupid or crazy in any way. They are being manipulated by something far stronger then any one person could ever be. They are all victims and need to understand the facts and not brush them aside. We all need our country back, the one that was sold out from under us back in the 1910`s when the Federal Reserve was reinstated by someone who satisfied his own selfish desires in becoming president. Kennedy died because he was going to give us our country back and abolish the Federal Reserve as well as other things. There are so many conspiracies and they are all tied together and yes it is very very crazy, but it is real.

I can`t explain everything here, but there are so many good members here who have took the time to post the links in various threads to help inform everyone what is taking place. There are very powerful documentaries with real people, very credible people, people who worked in government agencies, people who were in politics, the list goes on and on. People have died, been murdered to shut them up.

I know people who were at Ground Zero searching for survivors. There are so many facts that the Bush administration has tried to cover up. There are way to many instances of so called "coincidences". You have to stop thinking the way you are used to think, the way, yes, the way the powerful elite have programmed you to think, as crazy as that sounds.

It is not about just Bush nor every politician in government, but the ones who are all connected together for a common goal including very powerful corporations who have a common interest. It is all written in stone quite literally (a world of 500,00). I can now see the truth and I`m scared, but I love my country for what it was founded for and believe we can overcome.

Maybe Montana will be the ones to show us the way.

As much as you`d hate to, watch some Alex Jones videos on Google or YouTube and do some research on your own. Look into who owns and controls the media. Thats just a start.

reply to post by Nailer


go Montana go !!!
break off from the imperialist american empire

The United States of America is a Corporation! And in that corporation are States that have signed a contract to become, and have been for a while now, an affiliate of that Corporation with all the contracts rights that apply. When contracts are broken, just like in regular business deals, it is time for a change...time to break from the contract that is not following the guildlines set forth at the signing of that contract.

If this is really a secession, then all it really means is that the great people of Montana are fed up with their contract with the U.S.A., Inc. and wish to get out of the deal because the terms of the contract have been broken in certain places. Good on ya Montana!!! In my humble opinion, this is something that is a long time coming and maybe other states will follow, who knows. This U.S.A. Corporation has been sucking the people of these 50 states dry for many years now, it's time we take back our freedoms.
Sidenote: If the people of Montana do break from the US, then the Government will roll in and "take care of business", WACO style...just my opinion!!

Purduegrad05

Maybe this is the way we can beat the system eh? If every state did this it would totally dismantle the united states and the power of the one current government. And what is the NWO going to do kill Montana? haha.

I still think a Federal Government is good, but in the last 100 years the U.S. Fed Gov has become way too big.

1- Get rid of the IRS and instead of taxing peoples income there will be a flat tax on all goods and services. If you spend a million dollars a year you will be taxed on that, if you spend one thousand dollars a year you will be taxed on that. You can’t cheat out of paying taxes at the cash register and you can get rid of audits, tax-crime, and that big entity the IRS. (There are millionaires who pay less in taxes then people who make $25K a year, does that sound fair?)

2- Become a neutral country, down size the military, close all of our out of country military bases. If we want to mess around in outside affairs we can do it through the support of the U.N... Then we can focus our money and energy on our own country, fixing our real problems that really affect us; not some pretend fantasy ones.

3- Limit the size of corporations. Most of the big ugly military contractors will go away if we had a much smaller defensive military. Companies like Wal-Mart can’t get as big as they do, with such size, wealth, and power they can lobby and manipulate our elected public servants to there favor in stead of ours. Let small business and mom and pop stores come back.

4- A system of checks and balances our good, but take away much of the power away from the federal government, and give it back to state, city and town governments so we can make laws that suit are unique and diverse population. (If you live in NYC you don’t need a hand gun, but if you are hunting elk in Alaska during grizzly bear season you might want to bring a side arm.)

I think these simple changes are the answer to a better U.S.A, not a break up of our beloved country. Maybe Montana really doesn’t want to secede, they are just trying to give D.C. a wake up call the best way the Wild West can.


[edit on 23-2-2008 by jojoKnowsBest]

First let me say I am from the North, I am no southern rebel. I am not putting the rebels down. Just stating my credentials.

I do not believe that secession is the right move. I do not believe that it was the right move in the Civil War. The heart of the Civil War was the subject of states rights, which lead to the secessionist movement.

I am all for states rights. We need a concerted effort to bring forth a difference in the laws of the states. Not to homoginize them.

The differences were a major part of the US Freedoms. Without the constant contention between the authority of independant states and the Federal Government, our individual rights become trampled by a super burocracy. Lets put the power back where it belongs, in the states.
Reduce the National government to a working minimum for the benefit of the states as a whole. Do not reduce the states to branch offices of the Nation.

Excuse me for paraphrasing.
The States will rise again!

reply to post by jojoKnowsBest


When someone violates a contract, you do not necessarily break the contract. Frequently you renegotiate it. You might put in some penaltys and limits stating clearly what the repercussions will be for further violations.

reply to post by Nohup


I like your reply. But if they were "non-o-non-o" look at the various elements that would set up in the State. Both good and bad. That would be the income.

Most people do not relize a whole bunch of land has been given to countries.
Same exact situation. It is there country they fly there flag.

The people who could pull it off are the Indians.

They would have support from the GUWM....(Great unwashed mass) aka US Citizens.


It would be a magnet.

Thanks, Jim

reply to post by Eagle1229


i missed this post before but just how do delaware and nj have a border dispute? a river and bay separate them so are they arguing over who owns the water?

I remember being told that if a state leaves the american constitution or declares that it is no longer a state of America then the land returns to soverign rule. Meaning the land would return to British rule.

This was part of the closes for american independance.

I might be miss informed however this wasn't written in to the constitution as this was part of our auf wiedesen out of america.

The documents would belong to the Royal family i would guess or be looked after by the Royal lawyers.

Any way Montana is welcomed back if this happens!

Originally posted by ian990003100
I remember being told that if a state leaves the american constitution or declares that it is no longer a state of America then the land returns to soverign rule. Meaning the land would return to British rule.

Yeah, no.

Anyway, how could that possibly work with a state that wasn't a state or even a territory until nearly a hundred years after the Declaration of Independence and the Revolutionary War?

I don't think they are talking about succession. More like they want to make sure the Supreme Court is aware of how this decision will affect other states, and their statehood.

reply to post by bigfoot1212
New Jersey wants to build a pier out into the Delaware river
for LNG tankers to offload their cargo. However Delaware says their
stateline runs (at that point) right up to and including the Mud Flats of New Jerseys shoreline. Delaware says New Jersey cannot build the pier without their permission and and "possible recompense for quantities of fuel offloaded" (my theory for the dispute rather than environmental concerns
over the mud flat turtles)

New Jersey officials say the LNG plant would produce 1.2 billion cubic feet of natural gas per day – enough to supply every home in New Jersey, Delaware, and eastern Pennsylvania. Economists estimate that the project could generate more than $1 billion in new jobs and other economic benefits in the region."
"Under the 1682 land grant, Delaware owns and controls the entire river in the northern part of the state, including the submerged lands on the New Jersey side of the river where the pier and tanker loading area would be located.

So while Delaware could not stop construction of the plant on the river bank, it is claiming the power to effectively block the project by refusing to allow construction of the pier and tanker loading area.

But officials in neighboring Delaware refuse to allow the Jersey-based project to go forward. They say the new plant would threaten Delaware's coastal environment and could become a target for a terrorist attack."

Noticed the Battleship New Jersey got a new coat of paint and the engine room was off-limits (refurbishment?) when touring last May:-)

reply to post by Eagle1229


interesting- i live5 miles from joysey( albeit a bit up river) and here on the delaware river the land is claimed by the channel of the river
ty for pointing that out- i'll have to do more research now as to which islands i can hunt on legally

We can all agree that there are military bases, local, governments, legislative bodies, local police, etc, etc, etc. I imagine that any state that would secede would have continued control over all of these resources, and most likely in Montana's case, would continue to maintain and operate their military facilities under Montana's government even if the soldiers of the US government were forced to leave, left of their own accord, or even defected.... Montana would continue to use those resources. As some have said, that if Montana did declare it's independence, that martial law would be declared..... look at the fact that most of the military will do whatever is asked at them at any given time, but on the same hand they are also, in general, serving in order to protect Americans, if they were suddenly ordered to attack, suppress, herd, and oppress an entire state, I think you would see a good number of soldiers that would defect, or turn the guns on their superior officers. If martial law was declared I think you would see more of those states that are take pride in their self-reliance say f this, and secede, and with more states following suit, what power would the US government have, but to surrender and agree to terms.

reply to post by Osiris1953


well if we can get enough states to do it that would be a great.
gov't needs to be back in the hands of the states-even if they bicker with each other-and not in the hand of 1 all powering entity

reply to post by bigfoot1212

i live5 miles from joysey

Just clearing up a possible misunderstanding
If I've said this once I've said it twice
Draw a line from Trenton to Asbury Park everyone living North of this line
lives in North Joysey, everyone to the South lives in South Jersey.
Please don't attribute Joyseites to everyone.



[edit on 4-3-2008 by Eagle1229]