$4000 and an acre

Here's a senario,

All you have is $4000 dollars and a acre of wooden land in the mountains. You have a vehicle that will get you there but will use a full tank of gas.
plan for 2 people for 2 years with the possiblity of adding 2 more. (flexible)

To some people $4000 will be way more than they need and to others it will be not enough. Everything you spend the money on will have to be transported there in your vehicle. Once you get there you could start building.

There is a small town 8 hours walking time one way.

An economic collapse has just made the dollar worthless followed by Martial Law being enforced to quell public unrest. A foriegn government has decided it was a good time to invade. Using a limited tatical nuclear strike on three of the largest cities.
Timeline Economic Collapse
Martial law Delared and enforced (1 week later)
Tatical Nuke Strike and invasion (1 month later)

Your acre is not i a blast area or a fallout zone. Your far enough away from cities and towns that the only enemy you might see would be scouts/or recon.

1. What would you buy for supplies?
2. How would you set up your acre?

Am I a coward for saying that I did not want to live that way?

No, not at all.

I just wanted to see who would do what in that type of senario.
Doesn't mean that it will happen.

Just an information idea hunt.

axe(4)
hatchet(4)
shovel(4)
hammer(4)
nail(1000+)
extra axe-handle(4)
extra shovel-handle(4)
empty 55-gallon plastic container(2)
waterproof plastic tarp(5)
survival blanket(4)
waterproof boots(4)
heavy coat(4)
parka(4)
wool clothing(4-8 sets)
sleeping bag(4)
rubber tubing(60+ feet)
heavy rope(300+ feet)
thin rope(300 feet)
a few pots and pans
a couple cheap tubs or basins
gauze(30 feet)
thread(20+ feet)
sugar(20 pounds)
sharp scissors(2)
machete(4)
6-8inch knife(4)
sharpening stones(4)
25-gallon drum of pitch(1)
flint fire-starters(4)
multi-tool(2)
hen(6)
cock(1)
20 gallon gas canister(full)
EDITED TO ADD:
iodized salt(40 pounds)
feed corn(30 pounds)

After delivering everything to my property, I would then drive back to town and trade the vehicle in for a fairly young and calm horse.

Jon

EDIT: If any money was left. I would buy as much ammunition as I could afford.

[edit on 2.18.2008 by Voxel]

That's a really good list, but are you planning on eating anything besides chicken, eggs and sugar? That's the only food you've mentioned. And what will the chickens eat? Will the land sustain them? You also did not mention a medical kit of any kind. Everything else looks useful though.

reply to post by macha71


I was counting on being able to trap and hunt small game, foraging for edible fruits and mushrooms, and raiding nests and dens for eggs and young. Obviously, I am assuming that I am based in an area that I know well.

The chickens are more of an alarm system than anything else and the sugar is for first-aid actually. Sugar is a great way to keep a bad wound clean from infection and can be eaten for energy in the event of illness or lack of food. You could also use sugar to make alcohol with some other easy to find ingredients.

I forgot, you would want about 40 pounds of iodized salt for drying purposes and nutritional reasons.

Honestly, I would expect in that situation to get a lot of food and supplies by stealing what you need from other less-organized folks. Perhaps it would start with secret raids but eventually things would disintegrate enough that murdering others for basic goods becomes a very valid survival tactic.

Jon

EDIT: Good point about the chickens needing food. They will eat the insects around and in my home for part of the year but they need something for the winter - if they last that long!

[edit on 2.18.2008 by Voxel]

Well, if the dollar is worthless, then I guess I wouldn't be buying anything with my 4 grand. So, I would have to go foraging and build a shelter out of downed limbs, and somehow figure out something to barter with. Knowledge maybe.

Originally posted by Noah-What
An economic collapse has just made the dollar worthless

In that case, the only thing it would be good for is fire-starter. If the dollar is worthless and no one is willing to accept it, that just made the rest of your post moot.

Voxel obviously missed the point of economic collapse and martial law. Do you expect to just casually walk into a store, pick up all that stuff, and drive away?

ECONOMIC COLLAPSE - The vendors would not accept money. You could argue that the currency was only severely devalued by hyperinflation, but in that case $4,000 could still only buy you a few nails.
MARTIAL LAW - The military would not let you make it to the store, and probably confiscate your money even if it is worthless.

That's a fine list of things to get in preparation, but once TSHTF it's far too late.

Aside from the fact that 4 axes, hatchets, knives, and machetes seems really redundant. Unless you live in the rainforest you don't even need a machete. Have you ever swung a machete? Even if you have 4 other people, can you think of any time that you are going to need to use 4 axes simultaniously? ONE spare would be good, except you've already included 8 extra handles.

-Do you know anything about raising chickens?
-Flint fire starters - you can get about 5x as many Bic lighters for the same price.
-I don't understand the difference between "heavy coat" and "parka". I'm from Canada and I only have one coat for the entire year.
-You've got all those axes and hatchets but didn't bother to include any form of saw.

[edit on 2/18/2008 by Yarcofin]

Survival wise an axe has about as much bang for the buck as any tool you can choose. I would make sure to have a lifetime supply assuming very hard use. What you would need are probably the different types of axe, and I would recommend a double bit it is twice the axe for little more cost.

Originally posted by Yarcofin
Voxel obviously missed the point of economic collapse and martial law. Do you expect to just casually walk into a store, pick up all that stuff, and drive away?

I assumed the point was that the social collapse was imminent and that you had a few days head-start on everyone else because you read ATS daily. Otherwise the whole thread is pointless.

Aside from the fact that 4 axes, hatchets, knives, and machetes seems really redundant. Unless you live in the rainforest you don't even need a machete. Have you ever swung a machete? Even if you have 4 other people, can you think of any time that you are going to need to use 4 axes simultaniously? ONE spare would be good, except you've already included 8 extra handles.

Machete is a very good weapon. I was going to say short sword but I figure a machete is a more versatile tool. Have I ever swung a machete? I own three! One is a ceremonial type from the Dominican Republic but the other two are hand-made (not by me) out of steel leaf-springs from an old Ford.

-Do you know anything about raising chickens?
-Flint fire starters - you can get about 5x as many Bic lighters for the same price.

Yes, I have helped my uncle down south raise and slaughter chickens. I would still prefer the flint and knife fire starter. I just wouldn't trust my survival to a Bic lighter! Besides they tend to run out faster than you think. What do they last? A month of use or two? Bic lighters also work very poorly if they are too cold.

-I don't understand the difference between "heavy coat" and "parka". I'm from Canada and I only have one coat for the entire year.

A parka is a light but waterproof thing you throw on over your clothes or coat. Think of it as a personal and mobile tent.

-You've got all those axes and hatchets but didn't bother to include any form of saw.

I don't think I would be sawing much. Most rough timber work can be done by an axe or hatchet. You could build a log cabin with only an axe and some manpower. A saw is really for making boards and sheets and I am not planning on building boats.

Jon

I'd rather be mobile, or, at the very least, semi-mobile in that type of situation, so I'd forget about the acre of land. I'm also in an area that lends itself well to a small group on foot. There are also hundreds of natural caves in an area of densely forested, low mountains about 100 miles from here that would be a better shelter than anything a person could realistically build with few tools in the middle of nowhere.

I'd pack relatively light:

1) A good fixed blade, several folding knives and a sharpener.
2) A small (but not too small to be useful) hatchet and machete (You won't get far in the dense undergrowth of a forest in the SE quarter of the US without the latter, unless you like thorns).
3) Waterproof hiking shoes or boots.
4) A 10'x10' neutral-color tarp. Cheap, lightweight shelter.
5) Several butane cigarette lighers and a couple of firesteels or flints.
6) Folding maps of my state and those surrounding it.
7) At least one change of clothing; chosen for durability and wear resistance. Don't forget gloves for winter and a hat for the summer.
8) A few hundred feet of paracord.
9) 100yds of 10lb test fishing line, with hooks and sinkers.
10) 1 multitool
11) Light sleeping bag.
12) 2-3 bottles of insect repellent. The mosquitos will carry you off in the spring and early summer.
13) A couple of large plastic trash bags and a roll small, cheap ones.
14) A small metal pot for boiling water. An aluminum soda can will work in a pinch.
15) Needle and thread for clothing repairs.
16) 15-20 sticks of hot melt glue.
17) A small, folding solar charger and several rechargeable batteries
18) A couple of small LED Flashlights
19) A couple of two-way radios (this is a group, right?). These should also be capable of recieving weather updates.
20) One emergency radio with built-in hand generator.
21) .22 caliber pistol and 1,000 rounds of ammunition.
22) Sunglasses and clear plastic safety glasses.
23) Small water bottle

Sounds like a lot, but most of these are small and lightweight. I'd have everyone in the group carrying an equipment list very similar to that. Everything except the clothing, sleeping bag, hatchet and machete should quite easily fit inside of a small backpack (I have many of them in a binocular bag right now.) Weight estimate? 20-30lbs, again, half of it taken up by the four items mentioned and firearm/ammo.

[edit on 18-2-2008 by vor78]

A bicycle and some form of home made bike trailer. If you really want to be high speed, find one of those 2-stroke bike engines to motorize the setup. Find dump spots between your retreat and the urban area. People throw away the damnedest things. I heard of one enterprising scavenger who built a 400 square ft house with nothing but refuse from the construction site of a large subdivision. He even had an indoor toilet and hot water.

One my Dad's non-mechanically inclined neighbors put an 11 hp riding lawnmower out for the garbage man to pickup. My Dad snagged it up and had it running in about 2 hours. Abandoned lawnmowers often have very minor problems and can be cobbled together to produce a working motor. Running engine +fuel equals power for tools, electricity or possible get-away vehicle. The blades are tough carbon-steel and make excellent cutting tools after grinding and shaping. Every now and then you might even find an older lawnmower that has a cast aluminum deck.$$$ Marshall law or not, the the recyclers will still be up and running and will pay you cash for your aluminum scrap.

The aforementioned tools are a must but I would also include several saws. I large bow saw is must as would several carpenters and cabinet makers saws. You didn't mention what kind of trees grow in your area.

Some non-hybrid seeds are a must. How about fishing tackle?

As I've posted in the past, any form of marshall law declared in the US would be a joke. Give your average US enlisted soldier a means to make a little extra cash and stick it to the higher-ups and he'll give you papers so clean you'd fool your own mother.

As a former member of the military, I can tell you that only folks who get rounded up are the one who start shooting at soldiers. The taxman and the local LEO may molest you if they think you have something of value but your average soldier is only/mostly interested in surviving until his service contract is up and then getting the hell out of an occupation zone to go home to friends and loved ones. Checking papers is up to those at check points and the soldiers who are smart aren't going to go kicking in doors especially if they don't have to. Lots of Gung-Ho career type officers have been tragically wounded and killed under mysterious circumstances for some reason during occupations. if you get what I mean.

reply to post by tacocheesey


Ok I see I need to be a little more careful in posting, good catch.
You can spend your $4000 before the economic collapse and the worthless dollar.

reply to post by crgintx


Yes I believe I have read that post. Martial Law in this case serves to spread thin the US defense, too many cities not enough soliders. Which makes a way for invasion. Divide and conquer kinda thing.

reply to post by Voxel


Yes, the hills are ripe with game and small animals. A source of meat (if not brought along) is definetly attainable in the area. Quite a list.
good job

With $4000 you could easily get enough supplies to last that long and still be reasonably comfortable. The acre is useless in my opinion since I would be foraging for edible plants and the like in order to supliment my diet. I would bring along at least three books, the first being the Army FM 21-76, second The Forager's Harvest by Samuel Thayer or a book like it. I personally would recommend any book by Thayer since he goes into unbelievable detail about each and every plant, even how to cook them etc. Third a book on skinning, trapping, and hunting various animals.

Personally I can get everything I could possibly need for less than $1700 for two people, the rest can be used for plain old MRE's and the like. Heck you could buy a really small crappy camper and rent a back hoe and dig a big pit up there and then back it into the hole and then cover it up with dirt. Obviously taking care about support beams and a way to get in, air circulation etc... I know, I know but still I have seen it done

My basic list would be:

Clothing:
Polypropolene Underwear, Zip Collar Shirt and Pants, Black (two sets per person)
Set of US BDU Shirts and Pants (two sets per person)
4 Pair of Wool Socks
Cabela’s 1200gram Hunting boots (cost me $150)
3 sets of thermal underwear
1 set of coveralls
Down filled polyester coat
Dickies Work Coat (very tough outer material)


24 high quality steel snares, for rabbits or other small animals

Misc:
Green Head Waterproof Matches, a few boxes
Glock Trifold Shovel with Cover
Parachute Cord, Olive Drab, 150ft
US Wool Blanket, one per person
U.S. 3 Piece Utensil Set, one set per person
Emergency Medical Kits (get at least one really large one with lots of extra gauze etc...

Shelter/Etc.
Several axes, with spare handles, along with extra wire and nails etc... (to be used for more permanent shelters etc...
Eureka Tetragon 5 2 person Tent
Gamelle P 5 piece cooking set (really nice cost about $50, extremely light and strong)
Spec Plus Ontario Knife, military issue, (Amazing knife, comparable to SOG knives) (one is fine per person)
Meyerco Knife Sharpening kit, less than 3oz, but does an amazing job in record time!
Magnesium Fire starting Tool, about three per person
Silva Explorer Compass, two per person
Water treatment tabs (about 200 tabs and I would use them sparingly, I always boil my water so I try to only use them when time is of the essence or I can't boil the water)
2qt Canteens, two per person
-15 degree High Point Alaskan Mummy sleeping bag, depending on the area, get -30 degree bags or lower... (-15 is really warm though)
2.5 Gallon collapsible water storage unit (can collapse to be really small, but at the same time really sturdy) (in your situation get some 55 gal. drums)
Cabela’s DiamondPeak 6500cu. in pack

Fishing Kit… lines, lures, hooks, collapsible pole etc.. 100 yds of line
Gun + Ammo (30-06 with 400 rounds, 22' long with 800 rounds)
Flash Light (solar powered, with battery backup)
Topo maps and maps of the surrounding area
FM/AM radio (if possible hand cranked and solar powered)
Water Filter - Katadyn water filters, get one per person
Plastic baggies
Aluminum Foil
Some Conibear traps, 220 etc… probably 8
Wet Weather Gear… poncho
Lighters (20 pack)
Foot Powder
Rope
Sets of BDUs
Heavy sewing kit…
Surgical sutures, for large cuts,
Ducktape or 100mile an hour tape, three huge rolls
Safety pins
Broad rimed hat
Gloves

This should be everything one could possibly need in an average survival situation, even an extreme survival situation in harsh weather in North America.

I am sure I forgot some things and repeated some things too. This is also my AWOL pack, I don't have as many duplicates as I suggesting bringing because I would like to actually be able walk with my pack on. LOL...

I was referring to the camper being backed into the pit... not the back hoe itself... LOL

reply to post by Triarchic


Lol



Thats a good list Triarchic, are those books avaible on e-bay or amazon?
Yes for some $4000 would be way more than they need and others it wouldn't be enough. Good job

Just a point of interest. Chickens were mentioned as an alert system. Geese are much better. They're even better than dogs. They eat less, are much louder when they're riled up, and you can't bribe them. They also love biting, and you can eat them if you get hungry enough. Just a thought. Of course, that only works if you stay put on your acre.

Well, I agree with plucky on that notion...
I really wouldn't want myself or anyone else to have to live through that scenario, it would suck. With that aside, what would I do?

As much as would love to stick around, I have an old beater VW camper van with a full tank of gas.... and loaded to the hilt with basic supplies and a possibility to escape. Not too hard to figure out, I would love the vacation.
At first light, no later than 2nd day:
I think I would have to leave with the parting phrase "it's been real, and it's been fun... yada" and proceed to loadout. I'm thinking time is of the essence here folks, assuming all goes well.

Loading: 30 minutes:
Grab the two empty jerry cans from the garage.
Go back and grab the mountain bikes, bungee them onto the front of the van.
Back to the house, snag the backpacks, rifle (.22) and ammo can.
Stash the rifle in the van...
Hustle back to the house, get the old H&R .22 revolver and cash from the dresser drawer.
Grabs the keys, sunglasses and my fishing hat... on the way out.
Bail out the front door...
Toss cash in glove box, pistola under drivers seat.

Prep for departure: 15 minutes:
Start up the old beast, fumble for a good cd.... REM anyone?
Take stock of the sit, anything forgotten?
Go back to the house while she is warming up..
Grab some coinage from the jug by the washer.
Scribble some notes for family and anyone else concerned on some post-its.
Stick them throughout the house. Leave one on the inside of the door for good measure.
Walk out, leaving the door unlocked for all possible intruders behind.

Departure: Unknown:
Destination: Unknown:
Leave with guest in vehicle.
Try to remain calm and collected.
First stop, convenience store:
When it is most convenient, stop. Fill petrol cans.
Grab a soda, snickers bar, 18 pack of brew and a carton of cigs for the fridge.
Pay with cash... (you can keep the change) smile and exit.
Load up. Pull up to the phone booth.

Last calls: 15 minutes:
Using the payphone, we would initiate last calls to family and friends, under the premise of "an extended hiking trip."
Relay direction of travel, stressing importance of the vacation in a nonchalant tone.
Maybe drop some hints to those reached?
End calls.
Leave area promptly.


From here, it would all be up in the air.
I would try my best to get myself, the other occupant and the bus to the acreage in one piece.


Assuming we do.... no doubt it will get hairy from here, and not from a lack of shaving either. Well that will be the next post.


Shall We?