Is hydrogen as a “clean fuel” still a dream? What can we do?

it depends on how it's produced. storage is still a slight problem, but it might be overcome, energy source otoh, are a real issue.


www.abovetopsecret.com...&flagit=237039


fuel cells are horribly inefficent, even rechargeable batteries are better in this regard, imho, hydrogen is a PR ploydesigned to sell the unknowledgeable people down the river, until there's a crunch, at which pont, the industry will be able to dictate further development, ie. full blown nuclear power program, among other things.

Originally posted by fuelcell

Originally posted by bigspud
hydrgen is a dead end.
he3 will be used for fusion.
electric cars will use a combination of Lithium Phosphate batterys and ultracapacitors.

LiFePO4 is of good potential. But the power is low yet (discharge-charge rate too low). There are also some difficulties with supercapacitors.

the ultracaps are used for high current situations(acceleration), LiFePO4 battery for cruise. while cruising, battery charges the ultracaps.
toshiba has lithiums that charge to 80% in one minute.

the technology is available, its just a matter of the corporations figuring out how to squeeze every penny out of our pockets.

reply to post by MBF


Compressed air is energy storage. We need energy production.

Energy storage is like a battery. Your car battery can only last a little while running the lights and accessories before it is dead and can no longer deliver power. The energy production is more like the car's alternator, which takes some of the power from the turning engine and converts it into electrical power that the battery stores.

I have heard the idea of compressed air before, but it would be just as practical to make a car that runs off only batteries; when the batteries run out, you stop at a battery store and replace them.

I do believe there is a way to produce hydrogen cheaply and plentifully, but that is one of my current projects. As such I can not make further comments about it. Well, other than the obvious one - remember the Hindenburg? Safety is going to be paramount.

TheRedneck

reply to post by fuelcell

Hi fuelcell,

This recent study found a novel method of a photosynthesis like H2 production in which sunlight striking a Ruthenium based dye is used to release electrons to a catalyst which then splits water forming H2. Solar cell speeds hydrogen production.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by MBF

 

Compressed air is energy storage. We need energy production.

Exactly, I was responding to another post. Something has to compress the air before it can be used to run a car.

I have heard the idea of compressed air before, but it would be just as practical to make a car that runs off only batteries; when the batteries run out, you stop at a battery store and replace them.

I just don't think this is a viable long term solution to the problem. It may have it's place to help in certain areas. Still, something has to compress the air and that is energy spent with a loss of efficiency.

I do believe there is a way to produce hydrogen cheaply and plentifully, but that is one of my current projects. As such I can not make further comments about it. Well, other than the obvious one - remember the Hindenburg? Safety is going to be paramount.

Do you work for a corporation or is your project a personal project? I have been working on a personal idea that would supply plenty of power for hydrogen production. All I need is somebody with enough money to foot the bill. Once the device is built, the only cost is maintenance. One of the biggest problems in this country is the people with solutions to problems don't have access to the funds. I know there are a lot of nuts out there that don't know squat about energy production, but there are a few with valid ideas.

reply to post by MBF


A personal project. I drive a truck for a living... long story, and one I prefer to forget. I used to work in engineering.

The search for funding is a major problem, indeed. All of my current projects are being researched with personal funds. The good part of driving for a living is it allows some discretionary spending. I now have at my disposal a complete electronics lab that allows me to take any circuit from idea to marketable prototype, a machine shop, welder, and I am presently assembling some chemical apparatus. Expensive, but my personal policy of 'no debt' has allowed me to do this.

I'd like to discuss some of this with you privately. Would you be adverse to a U2U or e-mail exchange?

TheRedneck

reply to post by MBF


It really wasn't meant to be taken that seriously

I do know that some companies are getting drinking water from the oceans.

There are also massive water shortages starting to appear in many places.

The ocean is the biggest water source, and with Greenland ice alone melting, sea levels can rise, perhaps utilizing and displacing some of this water through purifying methods for all sorts of uses, including drinking, crops, and other things like hydrogen sources can help some. It is not the cheapest solution now, but we all know, usually the process gets cheaper with time.

I know Georgia and Florida are arguing over the aquifer, there are places where stealing the river water affects the communities downstream.

That would be the more serious aspect of taking the water from the ocean, not to put it directly in the tanks of the cars, but as an initial source that further helps the people in many ways, plus the environment if the tap on the freshwater river and aquifers sources are left to take their natural courses and the wildlife can get their habitats to somewhat normal.


It was just easier to say it the other way

reply to post by TheRedneck


Sounds like we are in the same boat. My college education is in engineering, but I farm. You are lucky, truck driving pays a LOT more than farming. Like you mine is a long story too. U2u me and we can discuss it.

Originally posted by FreeThinkerIdealist
reply to post by MBF

 

It really wasn't meant to be taken that seriously

Sorry...most people take it the other way. I didn't intend to offend you in any way.

I do know that some companies are getting drinking water from the oceans.

There are a lot of countries that get their water from the ocean, but it is an expensive process.

There are also massive water shortages starting to appear in many places.


I know Georgia and Florida are arguing over the aquifer, there are places where stealing the river water affects the communities downstream.

The Atlanta area has had a severe water shortage. I think it is a $1,000 fine if you get caught washing your car or watering your lawn. Did you hear that Georgia is wanting to move the state line a little over a mile north so it can get water from the Tennessee river?

Originally posted by Long Lance
it depends on how it's produced. storage is still a slight problem, but it might be overcome, energy source otoh, are a real issue.


www.abovetopsecret.com...&flagit=237039


fuel cells are horribly inefficent, even rechargeable batteries are better in this regard, imho, hydrogen is a PR ploydesigned to sell the unknowledgeable people down the river, until there's a crunch, at which pont, the industry will be able to dictate further development, ie. full blown nuclear power program, among other things.

Thanks for showing me the post.

Under current technology, hydrogen fuel cell is not so promising. However, if we can more efficiently use solar energy to split water, it should be much more advatageous, in my opinion. Actually I am working on water splitting now.

Generally speaking, hydrogen fuel cell motor can reach ca 90% energy effciency (not considering the pre-steps for making hydrogen). Ordinary motor vehicle engine efficient is only about 22% using the thermo-Otto cycle. We might expect more advantage with fuel cell technology in the future.

Originally posted by bigspud

Originally posted by fuelcell

Originally posted by bigspud
hydrgen is a dead end.
he3 will be used for fusion.
electric cars will use a combination of Lithium Phosphate batterys and ultracapacitors.

LiFePO4 is of good potential. But the power is low yet (discharge-charge rate too low). There are also some difficulties with supercapacitors.

the ultracaps are used for high current situations(acceleration), LiFePO4 battery for cruise. while cruising, battery charges the ultracaps.
toshiba has lithiums that charge to 80% in one minute.

the technology is available, its just a matter of the corporations figuring out how to squeeze every penny out of our pockets.

hello bigspud, do you have any more details about the Toshiba charging technology? I heard about a fast chjarging and check with a Colleague, who told me that they used transient charging technolgoy but he is not familiar either.

However, he told me that the inventor of the technolgoy mentioned that this way would substantially reduce the life of the battery.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by MBF

 

Compressed air is energy storage. We need energy production.

Energy storage is like a battery. Your car battery can only last a little while running the lights and accessories before it is dead and can no longer deliver power. The energy production is more like the car's alternator, which takes some of the power from the turning engine and converts it into electrical power that the battery stores.

I have heard the idea of compressed air before, but it would be just as practical to make a car that runs off only batteries; when the batteries run out, you stop at a battery store and replace them.

I do believe there is a way to produce hydrogen cheaply and plentifully, but that is one of my current projects. As such I can not make further comments about it. Well, other than the obvious one - remember the Hindenburg? Safety is going to be paramount.

TheRedneck

Glad to hear that. Good luck to you.

Originally posted by plumranch
reply to post by fuelcell

 

Hi fuelcell,

This recent study found a novel method of a photosynthesis like H2 production in which sunlight striking a Ruthenium based dye is used to release electrons to a catalyst which then splits water forming H2. Solar cell speeds hydrogen production.

Thanks a lot, plumranch. I am actually also working on water splitting and therefore like your information. We have several complexes under tests... I might talk about a little bit results soon.

We need to sustantially increase the quantum efficiency, to move the light to the region of visible range, etc...

Thank you again.

I wouldn’t want to drive around with a 5,000 or 10,000 PSI tank of hydrogen in my car. With our current technology some of the first hydrogen powered production cars that are coming in the near future will need to store hydrogen on-board in order to compete with the ranges of conventional gas powered cars.

What would happen to a 5,000 PSI tank of hydrogen if it ruptured in an accident, or if it caught fire? I wouldn’t want to be sitting on top of one.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by MBF

 

A personal project. I drive a truck for a living... long story, and one I prefer to forget. I used to work in engineering.

...............

I'd like to discuss some of this with you privately. Would you be adverse to a U2U or e-mail exchange?

TheRedneck

hello there, you might also U2U me. We might have some more discussions.

Originally posted by jojoKnowsBest
I wouldn’t want to drive around with a 5,000 or 10,000 PSI tank of hydrogen in my car. With our current technology some of the first hydrogen powered production cars that are coming in the near future will need to store hydrogen on-board in order to compete with the ranges of conventional gas powered cars.

What would happen to a 5,000 PSI tank of hydrogen if it ruptured in an accident, or if it caught fire? I wouldn’t want to be sitting on top of one.

Don;t be too worried. .

In Germany they used compressed natural gas to fuel cars. In China the system was a little bit different but the number of buses/taxes using natural gas is huge.

It is pretty how now. The safety should be OK.

Originally posted by MBF


The Atlanta area has had a severe water shortage. I think it is a $1,000 fine if you get caught washing your car or watering your lawn. Did you hear that Georgia is wanting to move the state line a little over a mile north so it can get water from the Tennessee river?

Right. That is all the reason that we need to use natural resouces in a more thrifty, more efficient way. We have only one Earth and only limited resources. The Earth has over 6 billion people to feed... We need new energy and raw materials. But before we make enough breakthroughs, we should not to be too consumeristic.

reply to post by fuelcell


That may be true, but hydrogen is still not used on a large scale in domestic automobiles. There was a bus that ran on propane on my Island home about fifteen years ago; but how would a pressurized tank of propane do in a burning wreck or a quick large puncture?

The other problem with hydrogen, mentioned by other posters, is the amount of energy you get from it versus its volume. A tank of gasoline is extremely efficient relative to the amount of power it contains to its volume. Most cars these days have around 300 to 400 mile ranges on a tank of gas and that's what many consumers expect.

It’s expensive to build a whole new hydrogen infrastructure when you can easily implement bio-diesel or E85 at current fuel stations.

India's car company Tata is coming out with a cheap car that can travel up to 70KPH and 200 kilometers on a tank of compressed air. You go to a compressed air station fill up, and the car is kind of a compressed air / electric hybrid and it makes zero pollution. It also needs a short amount of time to charge, If I remember correctly.

No need to find an efficient way of pulling hydrogen atoms from the universe, all you need is an air compressor.

I am not familiar with the compressed air powered car mentioned in your post. Thank you for your information. I'll try to gather more information before making detailed comments on the technology.

As for PEM hydrogen fuel cell powered automobile technology, I agree it is not very practical now. Some buses ran in Chicago since 15 years ago. But that is just a demo. That bus is expensive but it is good to accumulate some "experiences".

There are many technicals alternative energy systems. Compressed air might be a good choice. As other posts also mentioned, compressed air stores the potential energy. And potential energy sometimes shows less volumetric density as compared to chemical energy.

As for gravimetric energy density, hydrogen is the largest, because the molar weight is so small. However, the lower volumetric energy density is the weakness.

Generally speaking, the more choices, themore flexibility. I would Hope the technology in your post could become popular soon to provide more efficient energy utilization.



[edit on 23-2-2008 by fuelcell]

Originally posted by fuelcell

Right. That is all the reason that we need to use natural resouces in a more thrifty, more efficient way. We have only one Earth and only limited resources. The Earth has over 6 billion people to feed... We need new energy and raw materials. But before we make enough breakthroughs, we should not to be too consumeristic.

It's sad that this country has 5% of the worlds population and uses 25% of its energy. I know a girl that made a 40 mile trip to get some deodorant at Walmart because it was cheaper there. She didn't even want to talk about the cost of the gas to drive to get it. I believe this country is the most wasteful nation in the world when it should be the leader in finding new energy sources.