creatine

I read in several places taht you should cycle to prevent a dependency on creatine. I've read 8 weeks on, 4 weeks off. But what's important in cycling? Getting off of it or getting off for an extended duration? Because, I could just cycle every other week, 1 week on ,1 week off.

Additionally, while creatine is a preformance enhancer, your muscles do work harder, so could you except to keep some gains? Esp. during your off cycle period?

for instance, ktpr takes creatine for, say three weeks, while doing his vertical jump excercise. At the end of the third week he's complaining to NASA regularly cause he can dunk so high. Then he cycles off ... can he still dunk?

[Edited on 3-3-2004 by ktprktpr]

I think the cycling thing is important so

1- you don't get addicted
2- your body continu to produce natural creatine

I think you'll have to do a lot of cardio if you don't want to gain weight because of creatine.

Well weight gain won't be a problem for me. I'm only 155lb at six feet, and you only gain like 10 pounds or less. I can't gain weight normally (metabolism) so it'll be interesting to see what happens.

interesting discussion here:
www.nutritionalsupplements.com...

I've decided that there are defintely dangers, but they are not clear cut. It looks like you're safe if you don't laod, drink way more water than you think you need and keep an eye on yourself.

EDIT- Also, apparently the cheaper creatine the more crap there is in it. So, as suggested, I will hold out for EAS creatine, even though its more expensive.

[Edited on 3-3-2004 by ktprktpr]

I'm starting to read that you can just be totally safe and use protein instead of creatine. Why would someone choose creatine over protein? It looks a helluva lot safer.

Originally posted by ktprktpr
Well weight gain won't be a problem for me. I'm only 155lb at six feet, and you only gain like 10 pounds or less. I can't gain weight normally (metabolism) so it'll be interesting to see what happens.

I have the same problem. I too fast metabolism.

Not so long ago, I was 6 feet, 150 lbs, and I had a #ing hard time to gain that 30 lbs more that I now have.

It's crazy, I have to always be eating, got 3 meals a day plus one or two meal substitutes, even if I'm supose to have 3 meals subs. a day... I just can't eat the much right now...

Thanks for the link. Have you checked out the vitamin supplement I posted? (also GNC stuff) Looks interesting to say the least..

Edit: I already use proteins.

[Edited on 3-3-2004 by m0rbid]

Why choose creatine over protein? Creatine= faster results.

But with all I've just read, I think I'll forget creatine...

Guys...trust me...all of those stories of creatine causing irregular heartbeat, being addicted, etc, are not true. Any health problems people have noticed while on creatine were because they already had something wrong with them. Steak has creatine in it, it is natural. You also can't become addicted to creatine. As for the dosages, it doesn't matter how much you take, it won't be worse for you. Rather, it would be a waste of creatine. Some people I know take 20g every day. Once your muscles reach a certain "saturation" point, it makes no difference how much you take each day, as long as you maintain the saturation. (this can be done in as little as 5g a day, but some people like more. if you weigh more then this might be wise). As for loading, it doesn't increase any kind of health risks. It simply speeds up the saturation process, therefore giving you the benefits faster than starting out at a low dosage. When it comes to cycling, there are many people who stay on creatine all the time. Since your body produces its own, I would reccomend to go off it every couple months or so, just so your body restarts its own production instead of relying on supplemental creatine. Your diet already contains a small amount from eating red meat however, so it isn't anything new.

Protein vs Creatine? Protein and creatine are completely different...protein is essential for building muscle. If you simply want extra power, creatine would be fine. If you want to build muscle, you need protein first of all, then creatine. You should be getting lots of protein every day for muscle building, but you wont notice a different "feeling" when taking protein supplements, as it is simply food in my mind. Creatine you can tell that you are using it, usually.

I am using this creatine right now from prolab:
www.dpsnutrition.net... ?number=PR003&back=yes&dept=1090&last=1090

It is the Creapure brand guaranteed as pure as it gets. Loading is up to you, you might as well do it because you will see faster results. After that 5g a day would be fine for maintenance.

The only actual side effects documented to be from creatine use that I am aware of, are stomach aches/digestive problems (this is only with certain people who are sensitive and take large amounts at once), and also cramping (from not drinking enough water). The fear of tearing tendons and ligaments from the huge amount of weight you will be able to lift is for STEROID users. Creatine will not give you great strength gains. It will help, but not enough for you to worry about that. Steroids can make people go up sometimes 50lbs. or more on say bench press in a month, which can be bad because your body doesn't adapt to the new weight that fast. Creatine is not a steroid.

Well thanks for the clarification. I suspect that people with problems are abusing it in some way. What I think I will do is get some, take a little of it and see how it goes. I'll be sure to drink about a gallon of water a day. If everything is cool (2wks), then I'll load up and maintain.

edit- and i should get some protein to build muscle, too.

[Edited on 3-3-2004 by ktprktpr]

www.dpsnutrition.net... ?number=ON055&back=yes&dept=1083&last=1083

That is a good protein powder...the large version that will last a long time, or you can get a smaller size. It has a good spectrum of amino acids, as well as not much extra fat or sugar calories. I blend it with oatmeal and milk three times a day.

Thanks for the link. I'll be sure to tattoo "Body by Shoktek"

Originally posted by ktprktpr
Thanks for the link. I'll be sure to tattoo "Body by Shoktek"

hehe...let me know if you need help with anything else.

vitamins should be in a mans cabinet at all times. Nothing wrong with vitamins, if you take GNC's though expect to piss out half the iron and youll be pissing lime green.

What I said about my fathers heartbeat may or may not of been caused by creatine, all I know is his dr told him to lay off it and he has been fine since. Creatine should be cycled for 3 months, and you DO NOT need to load....its a waste of time and money. Creatine is naturally in steak but at .5-.7 grams nothing significant.

[Edited on 3-3-2004 by Dreamz]

Yes, vitamins are very important...I myself take Centrum Performance, in addition to Vitamin B complex, Vitamin C, and Vitamin E extra. Loading creatine is debatable, but I always load, as you see results faster. Taking a constant 5-10g a day will get you the same saturation over a longer time, which is time you could have already been making better gains if you had loaded. Just for reference, one pound of beef has 2g of creatine.

Originally posted by Shoktek
My current split:

Mon- Chest and Biceps

Wed- Legs and Shoulders

Fri- Back and Triceps

I also got good results from...
Mon-Chest
Tue-Back
Wed-Shoulders
Thu-Legs
Fri-Arms

Doing each bodypart once a week and on its own day really allows you to hit it hard...then you have a whole week for your muscle to rebuild which is necessary if training for size. You should also have a protein shake immediately after your workout with simple carbs and creatine. Some good exercises:

Chest- Barbell or Dumbell Flat & Incline Bench, Dips or Decline Bench
Back- Deadlift, Barbell/Dumbell Rows, Weighted Chin ups or pull downs, seated or tbar rows
shoulders- db or military press, side laterals, reverse flyes, shrugs
legs- squats, leg press, stiff leg deadlift, calf raises for calves
arms- skullcrushers/french presses, barbell curls

Those are the main heavy compound movements for each muscle group...there are also more isolation exercises for each that you can throw in at the end of workouts if you have extra time.

Sounds like your current routine is a good one. One thing I wanted to add about some of the alternatives you posted is concerning arms. I'd separate by biceps and triceps working the triceps on the same night with chest and biceps on the same night with back and lower back.


Here's my routine:

Monday : Chest/Triceps
Bench Press 4 to 5 sets
Incline Press 2 sets
Tricep Push Downs 4 sets
Butterflies 2 sets

Tuesday: Legs
Squats 4 to 5 sets
Donkey Calf Raises 2 sets
Leg Extensions 4 sets
Leg Curls 4 sets

Wed ? Off/Abs

Thurs: Shoulders

Military Press 4 to 5 sets
Upright row 4 sets
Shrugs 4 sets


Fri: Back/Biceps
Bent Over Row 2 sets
Deadlift 2 sets
Barbell curls 4 sets
Lat Pull down 4 to 5 sets
Seated dumbell curls 2 sets/arm
Seated row 2 sets




This routine has worked great fro me strength wise. Last December I started with a measly 190 Bench and now I'm doing a set of 10 with 360!

I've done the chest/tri back/bi routines for a long time...I don't really like working the corresponding arm muscles after chest or back, as my arms are already blasted from doing that. Right now I'm having some back problems, so I've sadly decided to lay off squats and deadlifts for the time being..stiff leg deadlifts and barbell rows are also out. And are you saying you went from a max of 190 to 360 for 10 reps in just over a year? Because that is amazing...did you just start training? Have you used steroids/pro hormones? How about size wise..

Here are some ideas I have that might help your routine...

Originally posted by astrocreep
Monday : Chest/Triceps
Bench Press 4 to 5 sets
Incline Press 2 sets
Tricep Push Downs 4 sets
Butterflies 2 sets

I would try replacing flyes with dips here, before pushdowns

Tuesday: Legs
Squats 4 to 5 sets
Donkey Calf Raises 2 sets
Leg Extensions 4 sets
Leg Curls 4 sets

Wed ? Off/Abs

Thurs: Shoulders

Military Press 4 to 5 sets
Upright row 4 sets
Shrugs 4 sets

Upright rows are well known for being shoulder killers, they wreak havoc on rotator cuffs...especially with benching heavily, and military presses, I would replace these with something like side laterals.

Fri: Back/Biceps
Bent Over Row 2 sets
Deadlift 2 sets
Barbell curls 4 sets
Lat Pull down 4 to 5 sets
Seated dumbell curls 2 sets/arm
Seated row 2 sets

I would do all back work first, then biceps...big to small

These were just some suggestions..you say that you have been making great gains with your routine, so if that is the case, don't change it. But if you ever hit a plateau, then try out some of the changes I wrote. I would highly suggest however, that you stop doing upright rows...these are very dangerous, and bad no matter what form you use. They are responsible for many people having to quit lifting altogether from shoulder problems.

Originally posted by Shoktek
I've done the chest/tri back/bi routines for a long time...I don't really like working the corresponding arm muscles after chest or back, as my arms are already blasted from doing that. Right now I'm having some back problems, so I've sadly decided to lay off squats and deadlifts for the time being..stiff leg deadlifts and barbell rows are also out. And are you saying you went from a max of 190 to 360 for 10 reps in just over a year? Because that is amazing...did you just start training? Have you used steroids/pro hormones? How about size wise..

Nah, I have never used roids or hormones. I eat a diet full of protein and I don't overwork the muscle group. Thats the key. Most people feel like to gain, they must leave the gym spent. Thats not true and working the same group more than once a week is a Huge No No! Also, I never max out with one rep sets. I don't move up until I can do 10 to 12 reps with a weight. Because I use between 6 and 12 reps at high weights, I don't count it until I can do the minimum 6 reps with it.


I like the upright row. I use only 50 lbs as I view it more a shaping tool than anything. I don't go close to maxing out and just do 2 sets of 12 with 50 lbs. I will take your warning seriously and see if I can move to something else. What do you think about side dumbell flies?

Originally posted by astrocreep
What do you think about side dumbell flies?

Any kind of side raising movement is good...as long as you do your heavy shoulder military or dumbell presses, the rest is just details. Still, with side raises, use good form and light weight, and don't raise it up too high. I actually had minor shoulder discomfort a long time ago from doing these incorrectly. They are still far better than upright rows...also, barbell rows hit a lot of the same muscles as upright, but they are a more natural movement and better for you. Most back movements include a lot of shoulder muscles..

What did you end up doing morbid? I'm going to get some creatine as a belated b day present very soon and I'll soon face your same choice.

ktprktpr, I am glad you bumped this thread or I might never have seen it. I was enrolled in a high-dose (1400mg 2x/day) creatine clinical trial to guage its effects on neuromuscular disease. The experiences I had mirror those of the other contributors to the thread, but a little heavier on the gastric troubles. But enough about that!

The positives for me were overshadowed by the stress it put on my kidneys, so I had to drop it. I had even upped my water intake to almost 4 liters/day, too. If I get to start back on physical therapy we will try a lower dose.