Did God create the creators that created the creator?

There are enough threads bashing religion, and I really wanted to avoid that when making this point. I just wanted to offer food for thought.

I believe in a creator, but the way I see people talk about God just doesn't make sense to me and I generally avoid all "God" references, it's just too easy to say that something unexplainable is the work of God. It's a get out.

Having said that, it seems clear to me that the world is full of intelligent design, perhaps the universe. In fact, my belief is that everything in the physical is designed, created and has a purpose.

Coupled with this, the notion that there is Man, and then there is God, is a bizarre one. (to me). There has to be layers in between. Perhaps even infinite layers, but layers nevertheless. A lot of them.

I wouldn't deny the possibility that there is one supreme being, it's just not feasible, in my mind, to be the next level up the totem pole.

People can pose the question, if God created us, who created God? Perhaps therein lies the problem and the reason we may be wrong. The answer is infinite layers of intelligent beings as part of the whole, none closer to God than any other, only we are so far down the totem pole, everything above would have God like qualities. I expect the big picture is more complex than we could ever imagine at this level of being.

As I said, just food for thought.

god has always been, will always be. the ultimate controller.
the unmovable one.

reply to post by Prote


To answer your original title: 'Did God create the creators...etc:'

Nope. I can state quite categorically that the 'Creators' (men) created 'God'. As can be very easily proven. Want the proof? Please ask - as it's very simple to explain - well, to all but the most rabid fanatics who just don't want to hear the truth of course....

J.

Hi Jimbo,

By all means share what you think but I'm not really looking for an answer to that question, it's just really a title to highlight the point that what we think of as God is simply the myriad of beings on a myriad of levels between us and what might actually be an entity that is God.

I wouldn't go so far to say that a "God" of sorts doesn't exist, I just think that the majority are confused and that there are levels between what we think is God and what may (or may not) actually be God.

EDIT: But, sure, I want to see what you have.

[edit on 14/2/08 by Prote]

Originally posted by Prote
People can pose the question, if God created us, who created God?

Well, for one, I've never seen anyone come up with a definition of God that isn't inherently paradoxical. And any discussion or debate where you can't define the terms is essentially impossible. So there you go.

That being said, lately I've been toying with the idea that "God" is the result of life (non-entropic organization and consciousness) eventually absorbing/ incorporating all of the mass/ energy in the Universe in the future, then bootstrapping the entire Universe into existence in the past.

The thing that hangs most people up is the notion of time moving in one direction only. But there's nothing in the current quantum mechanical model of the Universe that limits time to move in only one "direction."

So what you have is a very long time loop, with no particular beginning or end. Life, us included, brings God and the Universe into existence, which in turn brings life into existence. Of course, in this scenario God is nothing like the image of the Big Grandpa in the Sky, but is rather a single, all-encompassing consciousness that exists on multiple dimensional levels, and is essentially incomprehensible to us in any way.

Just a thought.

Originally posted by Nohup

Originally posted by Prote
People can pose the question, if God created us, who created God?

Well, for one, I've never seen anyone come up with a definition of God that isn't inherently paradoxical. And any discussion or debate where you can't define the terms is essentially impossible. So there you go.

That's interesting. Everyone has their own definition of God, probably why discussing it at all is a nightmare. Most ridiculous of all is how most will assume that there is us... then God, nothing in between. If there is a "God" in the traditional sense at all.

Originally posted by Nohup
That being said, lately I've been toying with the idea that "God" is the result of life (non-entropic organization and consciousness) eventually absorbing/ incorporating all of the mass/ energy in the Universe in the future, then bootstrapping the entire Universe into existence in the past.

The thing that hangs most people up is the notion of time moving in one direction only. But there's nothing in the current quantum mechanical model of the Universe that limits time to move in only one "direction."

So what you have is a very long time loop, with no particular beginning or end. Life, us included, brings God and the Universe into existence, which in turn brings life into existence. Of course, in this scenario God is nothing like the image of the Big Grandpa in the Sky, but is rather a single, all-encompassing consciousness that exists on multiple dimensional levels, and is essentially incomprehensible to us in any way.

It is incomprehensible to us at this level, and why I think we simplify it so. It seems a common theme for those to question to at some point arrive at the conciousness/energy depiction of God. Perhaps it is easier to leave him out of the loop altogether at this stage of being and focus more on the lower levels closer to us. But no-one wants to go there.

Originally posted by Nohup
Just a thought.

Thank you for them. Interesting.

For me, God is the final cause of all things .As we did not cause the universe + the universe has a beginning makes me think that we-humans - are not the final cause of all things nor we exist without a creator.

Let us taking it different - what if actually God was created by a Super-God? ok, who created the Super-God then? a Super-superGod .Indeed , this cycle is not infinite and it should end up with a God that was the origin of everything else. Something must exist without a cause or nothing exists at all.

need to go to bed , i guess it is the flu haha
have a good week-end everyone

Everything is a product of the Imagination for certain of us. I say certain of us because there are two different living beings. Hear me out...

Imagination had come of itself as a possibility, you must understand, and will come itself further by the power it has to design in core of its central plane/self. It's an "if" that exists as an "if". Surely ideas (designs) in the alive Imagination were put as hypothetical considerations and conclusions and calulations and etc being weighed against one another and non-existence. Imagination is the drawing board before something of a material mean is formed or brought into existence in an infinite demonsional non-existence plane that has no boundry or beginning or end. Imagination is alive and it puts forth the fruits, so to speak, into whatever materal form it is pleased with in itself.

Imagination is at work in the now for each individual's future, too. This is why paradise lies for each individual after they lose their human body of this world.

What you think of as "we" are our higher self which is set to be perceived differently to everykind of perfection imagined. We are set as different seeds that grow differently and sprout into different things with certain things in common.

There are material objects inside materal objects that connect to each other and work with each other to perfection. You can perceive your conscious (a materal object) is inside a human body (a material object) it was given to work with.

Existence was an unstabilized possibility that could stabilize and did when it was ready.

Originally posted by sty
Let us taking it different - what if actually God was created by a Super-God? ok, who created the Super-God then? a Super-superGod .Indeed , this cycle is not infinite and it should end up with a God that was the origin of everything else.

What if there is no need to think about God at all on the basis that what we think of as God is something else entirely? else, we get stuck in such a logical loop.

God, if there is such a thing, may be beyond us entirely at this level, hence why we haven't a clue as a species. We embrace something that's undefinable but shun anything else paranormal. Bizarre!

Originally posted by sty
have a good week-end everyone

You too!

reply to post by Prote

thx and yes, it is weird we exist at all , or that anything exists at all

reply to post by Mabus


If I understand it correctly your central thesis of an Absolute imagination seems to be Hegelian/Kantian almost and its quite interesting as thought predicates action for human beings. However, why should it do so for God. Surely thought/imagination and action are combined - in other words, we have a fertile imagination and an infinitely creative power that is perpetually coming up with new permutations for life.

Additionally, you appear to treat the soul/ego as a material entity. this pushes this entity into the realms of empirical research because anything in the material realm should be subject to scientific research.

However, back to the topic. If you believe that the Law of Cause and Effect exist in and out of the Universe then you can apply cause and effect arguments to God. That then leads to infinite regress until we come to a 'prime mover' or 'prime cause' of all things and then the question loses its value. However, if you consider that this Universe is based around cause and effect from the fundamental forces and other undiscovered Laws, then if God is outside of this Universe where the causes and effects are different or do not exist then you have a different argument. I guess what I am trying to say is that it would make sense to me that God exists out of time and space and outside of the Universe so it would no sense to me to have an infinite pantheon of Deities.

[edit on 16/2/2008 by Heronumber0]

Wow, someone else pondered this about who created God? Well I posted an article on it in this forum just today and ran across your message.

Actually, good question who created God; cause he/she didn't just pop out of nowhere.

Perhaps there is thought consciousness (souls) before God; and well before the BigBang.

I pondered and pondered; and it hit me.

When does this infinity before the big bang end?

I believe that the Universe simple started as just one Thought Consciousness (1 Soul) called....Space

I call it the Spirit of Space or the SpaceSoul; 1st thought consciousness in the Universe; since spawned other separate thought consciousness (souls); then and so on;... so there could be billions of these souls before the big bang.

I think what happened is;

Lord of Spirits (Holy Spirit)
Lord Jehovah
Lord Jesus

got together; some 4000-10000 years before the big bang and created
a Pure White Triangle to produce the ein sopf (light energy) thought consciousness or infinite energy source; from this they made the physical universe (kingdom - malkuth) or other souls/spirits.

Perhaps; some of us may have souls older than the physical universe.
But that doesn't mean we are God; cause the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit); and none of us are this one who created the physical universe; give credit where credit it due.

Like if my soul was older than God's; well I wouldn't call myself God.

God is the creator of everything material--yet God is not material "him"self. God has always existed. Something that has always existed has no creator because it has always been there. Matter has not always existed nor has Time. If Time had infinitely existed we would have never gotten to this point in Time, because there would be an infinite amount of Time before now. Matter is material, and something material and finite needs to have been created or else it would not exist--therefore matter has not always existed.

Time and matter need to have been created, as explained above. Something cannot be created from nothing. It seems most plausible to me to hypotheses that their creator was God.

hypothesize* Why can't we edit posts in this thread??

EDIT- Apparently I can edit this post but not the post above it, weird.

[edit on 3/30/2008 by InterestedObserver]

@OP

My logic has always told me this... All these religions with similar stories had to have had some common ground i believe it was et visiting early folks and giving them "religion" as a construct for early social development .. eg be good to your neighbor and dont steal. ect ect..

However striking similarities in music and arithmetics and cosmology lead me to believe there is a set order to the universe..

This leads me to .. our creator may have been an ET race that modified our dna or possible put humanoids from different planets here as a melting pot. But the creator of the universe the one who put the universal laws in reality is something different.. There is a GOD somewhere that set the order to the universe we live in but i sure as heck don't think that was "our" creator.

reply to post by InterestedObserver


It may have something to do with elapsed time since your first post. The feature to edit is only available for a limited time period (I think).

Originally posted by Localjoe3
My logic has always told me this... All these religions with similar stories had to have had some common ground i believe it was et visiting early folks and giving them "religion" as a construct for early social development .. eg be good to your neighbor and dont steal. ect ect..

Perhaps. It could also be one of the fundamental strategies to keep humans in their nursery.

However striking similarities in music and arithmetics and cosmology lead me to believe there is a set order to the universe.

Yes, too much to be random.

This leads me to .. our creator may have been an ET race that modified our dna or possible put humanoids from different planets here as a melting pot. But the creator of the universe the one who put the universal laws in reality is something different..

There is a GOD somewhere that set the order to the universe we live in but i sure as heck don't think that was "our" creator.

I can relate to your thought process.

I don't know how relevant God actually is, depending on your beliefs and personal definition. My point is that IF there is a single entity we call God, he ain't gonna be comprehended by humans. There's more to it and any thought of God, I imagine would restrict a persons thinking when attempting to answer the fundamental questions. I reckon it's a conspiracy.

To me, without explaining, it's all a bunch of story telling wether or not it contains partial truth or not. "Always was" explaination is no explaination to me at all.

In a sense, Extraterristials did create the humans you see on planet earth; they are called the Elohim.

But the question is who created the soul of God? He/she (GOD) didn't always just exist, no some other thought consciusness(soul) must have created the soul of God that in turn created the kingdom (malkuth).

But then we can ask, ok now who created the creator of the Soul God, and so on and so on, infinatley backwards in time till we get to a point of nothingness (VOID - vohu) or Spirit of Space 1st thought consciousness that in turn created other thought consciousness; then one the older thought consciousness must have created the Spirit of GOD (who is not the oldest soul in the universe).

I strongly believe in this truth and fact.

Just to simply say God is the oldest soul in the Universe or always existed is wrong and not true... or weak...

Up untill the 1960s science assumed the universe was eternal. In the 1960s they observed the expansion of the universe and came up with the Big bang theory basically agreeing with the Bible in that there was a creation.

Created Gods are by definition false. The true creator God is eternal. "I am". He is. He always was. He always will be.

Time is the fourth dimension. From quantum mechanics we are seeingt there are probably more dimensions we are unaware of. God works in these extra dimensions and functions outside of time. We use the concept of infinity in our mathematics all the time... like integration in calculus. But we truly can't conceive of it properly; yet the numbers still add up correctly. It is not that hard for me to assume an eternal (outside of time) creator.

[edit on 3/31/2008 by Bigwhammy]