Was Muhammed a Christian?

Man, that is one mighty nice post Thinker. I am gonna have to spend a little time on it to fully understand it all. It has a lot of good info. There are many religious books and people of different faiths may not be ready to give in to a book from another religion. I do tend to hold the Bible in high regard. I am not so sure that everyone gets the right message from it however, including myself. I have very different opinions on what the stories are trying to tell us, on the true history trying to be told. It's such a timeless book and so many different interpretations can be taken from the same stories. I have to read some more out of some of the other religious books. It seems that most share many of the same ideas.

[Edited on 17-2-2004 by Mandalorianwarrior]

hmmm Interesting discussion. Though just because some sentences in Qur'an make more sense in Aramaic to somebody, doesnt mean that the whole book was initialy written in Aramaic. As far as I know, mohammad spoke arabic and what he said was written down and later canonised into a book we know today as the Qur'an. A lot of people that followed him in the early days memorized those suras, a practice still widely popular in islamic society. They all spoke arabic, not aramaic.
There is however the possibility that he found a gnostic book somewhere and, although he was iliterate, he translated it into arabic, or somebody did it for him, and then said it was given to him by God. But as a Muslim, I don't believe that.
Is there a book, a solid research, written about this subject? I would love to read it.

@Thinker : how interesting, you use a book whos divinity is solely based on BELIEF to dispute another book whos divinity is also based on belief. YOu have about zero EVIDENCE that jesus was the Son of God, or that he actually said that, the only thing you have are gospels of mark, John, Luke etc etc. Also the verses from Qur'an you quoted are only partial, out of contest, and wrongly translated.

Originally posted by Mandalorianwarrior
How many military battles did Jesus lead people into? Looks like Muhammed had a little bit more of a nasty streak in him when it comes to fighting battles.

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. "

Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."

Machaira, the word translated sword here, is not any sword, but a small and curved sword, most like a short shimitar, the typical Arab sword.

"and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Gentiles here, or "ethnos" specifically refers to non-Jews living in the area. These people today, are the Muslims. And they are in general far more God-fearing, God-loving and rightious than the Christians. Christianity is a kind of cult the Torah prohibits, while Islaam is a law which is compatible with the Torah.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 17-2-2004 by Hamilton]

Man, that is one mighty nice post Thinker"

the internet and copy paste works great.

I didn't write it, but i believe guy that did it.

Originally posted by Blacktron
Jesus was the culmination of all the law and all the prophets. He was God come to earth in flesh. He called the people to God, but he was calling the people to God through himself. John called the people to God. Jesus called the people to himself.

The Jewish leaders asked him when he stood before them if he was the Son of God. He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

He didn't say "Sure." He didn't say, "I'm one of God's sons." He invoked the "I am," the same name God gave to Moses. This point was not lost on the Jewish leaders who immediately decided they had heard enough - Jesus had just blasphemed and called himself God.

Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic or he was who claimed to be, which was God. I don't really know how you can have it any other way.

Jesjuah said he is YHWH, the Lord, the highest servant of God, him about whom one can say: He is God, for in him is the Spirit of the Father, him who Created this world in seven Days. Mosche, Isaiah and all the prophets witness about this. "Before Abraham was, I am" he says. John the Baptist also witnessed about him and said: "Him who existed before me comes after me". Remember that John was born before Jesjuah, but still he says the same thing. The very name Jesjuah means Salvation, or is pronounced more or less exactly the same way (Yeshuah and 'Yeshuwah), and the name which his name is a variant of, Jehosjuah, means "YHWH is Salvation". The thing with John the Baptist being the voice who cries in the wilderness is a referance to the story of Ismael. How Tamar left him in the wilderness to die for she saw no other way, and went to take her own life. However the child started crying, and our Father heared his cry, and helped the child and his mother, and today he is a great people, just like he promised Abraham, his father. Do you think that a father ever forgets even one of his children?

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Yes drop it, as soon as you realize that " prophet Muhammed " was not the " last " of the great prophets.

Did he not also say that no faith would be born after his?

You are all assuming too much. When Jesjuah (or Muhammed for that matter) says "I am the One" and so on, they simply say: "The One is in me, he speeks through me, and he has become me. I am his witness. I am his Son. I am his Prophet."

And you all seem to believe that they were speeking to the whole world, something they weren't. They were speeking to their nations. Have there come a new faith or religion among the Muslims? Have they accepted any other prophet coming after Muhammed? Unless you can answer yes to these questions, Islaam is right when they say what they say in this matter. Period.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

"These people today, are the Muslims. And they are in general far more God-fearing, God-loving and rightious than the Christians"

Then all the terroist killings around the world, plus hijacking which are supported in the koran.

You then say such a thing?




www.littlegreenfootballs.com...

A Palestinian guerilla fires from his rifle, as children dance around him at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near the port city Sidon in south Lebanon, September 11, 2001. Palestinians in Lebanon met news of attacks on American targets on Tuesday with jubilant gunfire, dancing and cheering, saying Israel's chief backer deserved such a punishment. REUTERS/Ali Hashisho
- Sep 11 2:25 PM ET



A Palestinian woman receives free sweets from a vendor as groups of locals in east Jerusalem's Old City celebrate after hearing the news of a terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York, Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001. (AP Photo/str)

- Sep 11 4:00 PM ET
Palestinian fires his rifle in celebration at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near the port city Sidon in south Lebanon, September 11, 2001. Arab leaders voice shock and horror at devastating attacks that leveled symbols of American power Tuesday, but a chorus of cheers rose from streets that resent U.S. backing of Israel. (Ali Hashisho/Reuters)
- Sep 11 4:35 PM ET

Mohammed (aka: Muhammad)
- Terrorist or Prophet?
Christians & Jewish martyrs say; "I will die for what I believe"
A Muslim terrorist says; "you will die for what I believe"
Mohammed marched with 3,000 followers against 2,000 Quraiza Jews, shortly after the siege of Medina ended. The Jews were attacked and they soon surrendered. A wounded chief named Sa'd was asked by Mohammed to decide the fate of the captives. His response was that the men should be put to death, the women and children sold into slavery, and the booty be divided among the Islamic army. A shrill of horror ran through the assembled captives. Mohammed then said; "Truly, the judgment of Sa'd is the judgment of the Lord, pronounced on high from above the seventh heaven".

The Muslims dug trenches across from the marketplace, and in the morning Mohammed commanded that the male captives be brought out 5-6 at a time. The Jews were made to sit down at the top of the trenches. Next, the Muslims beheaded them and tossed their bodies into the trench. This sickening butchery by the "Prophet of God" lasted all day. It continued into the night by torchlight.

Sounds like the modern day hilter/nazi




[Edited on 17-2-2004 by Thinker]

[Edited on 17-2-2004 by Thinker]

Originally posted by Mandalorianwarrior
So you could not say you are the son of God? If there is a God then would we not all be a son of God?

Jesjuah is the first elect. The first choice of God, the first begotten. The Son of Man, meaning the future King of Heaven, the Ruling God, like the Law and the Prophets witness about. He is destined to rule above the Princes in the Kingdom of Heaven. His Son shall rule over the kings of the Earth, with his staff made of iron, possibly meaning he will control the nations using a robotic army, ending all wars. The Son looks like something of a cyborg himself too.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by Hamilton

Laws about rightiousness in war, general wisdom, and common food precautions and a strong aversion against adultary, and ofcourse they both taught to to treat your neighbors with respect etc. These are mostly the same things, only suited for another nation.

I think it is important to note that laws of warfare, adultery, and other social issues were considered, debated, and taught by classical Greek philisophers such as Plato and Socrates. Also, hygiene, sanitation, cleanliness in food preparation, quarantine practice, and other health related issues were practiced by Hippocrates and his contemporaries and apprentices almost 400 years prior to the supposed composition of the Old Testament.

The Jews were learned people, and education was a tradition carried on through royal lines, such as that of Solomon, then David. I believe that from the age of 13 to 30, Jesus was educated as a rabbi, and that many of his influences were the Greek classics, as they were some of the most realistic and actionable philosophies at the time.

I also personally believe that Jesus was enlightened to the point that he realized the level of corruption present within the leadership of his faith, held great courage and conviction, and splintered as his conscience dictated.

That is all

Originally posted by Thinker

3. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS AND MOHAMMED
Jesus' birth as the Messiah was prophesied in Scripture. Mohammed's birth as the so-called Seal of the Prophets was not.

Yes there is a wide range of prophecies which fit with Muhammed. Both in the Gospel and in the other writings of the New Testament.

Through many witnesses, the Holy Spirit established the lineage of the Christ from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob to the tribe of Judah and out of the house of David (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, 21:12, 22:18, 26:4, 28:14, 49:10; 2 Samuel 7:12-16; Psalms 18:50, 89:3-4, 89:20, 132:11; Isaiah 9:6-7, 11:1, 11:10; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 33:14-15). Moreover, it was prophesied through Isaiah that the Messiah would be conceived by a virgin (Isaiah 7:14). It was prophesied through Micah that he would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2). And, it was prophesied through the typology in the third and sixth chapters of Zechariah that his name would be 'Joshua' (of which 'Jesus' is the Hellenized form).

Who prophesied the birth of Mohammed as a true prophet of God? No one. No one except Mohammed. Mohammed wrote:

"Jesus son of Mary said, 'Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger of God to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tidings of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.'"

And why do you suppose the Church edited out or ommited this part?

Surah LXI (17)
There is no record that the Lord Jesus said any such thing!

First you quote it, then you say it doesn't exist. What scriptual evidence do you have saying the Pope should be his successor? Haven't you read what the Book of John says? "If everything he said and did was to be written down, there wouldn't be enough books around in which to write it down". But still you think that only what the Roman Quisslings serve you is food. What about the hidden Manna? The Book of Barnabus prophecy about Muhammed. In the story of Ismael, he is likeways prophecied. Are you blind? If you can't see these things, how can you say the Law prophecy Jesjuah? You can't for you would never have figured it out on your own.

Throughout the Koran, Mohammed refutes that Jesus was the Son of God:

"The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him."

What Muhammed really says here, may be that Jesjuah is infact his God, since he was the One who heared the cry in the wilderness, and who came and delivered him. But no matter how you put it, Jesjuah was nothing more than a vessel for God's Spirit. A Messenger. "I can't do anything unless the Father commands it". That is the voice of a Servant. I call this Servant my Lord and God, for he existed before even me.

Surah IV (18)
"The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are!"

The context here. Who is it Muhammed refers to when he says "them" here, other than the ones who confuse the Plan of God by saying the vessel of God is God. When the children of Enosh started worshipping the Word of God, this was a sin. Jesjuah must first have his Word fulfilled, before he can be called God. I see his Word being fulfilled now, therefore I can say Jesjuah as a reply to his prophetic name Immanuel.

Surah V (19)
"The Creator of the heavens and the earth --- how should He have a Son, seeing that He has no consort, and He created all things, and He has knowledge of everything?"

Nobody's perfect:

His foundation is in the holy mountains. YHWH loves the gates of the New Jerusalem. More than all the other dwelling places of Jacob. Truely, truely: Glorious things are spoken of you, O City of God.

"I shall mention Egypt and Babylon among those who know Me; Behold, Philistia and Tyre with Ethiopia: 'This one was born there.' " But of the New Jerusalem it shall be said, "This one and that one were born in her"; And the Most High Himself will establish her. Truely, truely: YHWH will count when He registers the peoples, "The One was born there". Then those who sing as well as those who play the flutes shall say, "All my springs of joy are in you."

Amein.

Surah VI (20)
"The Jews say, 'Ezra is the Son of God;' the Christians say, 'The Messiah is the Son of God.' That is the utterance of their mouths, confirming with the unbelievers before them."

Surah IX (21)
"They [the Christians] say, 'God has taken to Him a son.' Glory be to Him! He is All-sufficient; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; you have no authority for this. what, so you say concerning God that you know not? Say: 'Those who forge against God falsehood shall not prosper. Some enjoyment in this world; then unto Us they shall return; then We shall let them taste the terrible chastisement, for that they were unbelievers [in Mohammed and the Koran].'"

Surah X (22)
"Praise belongs to God, who has not taken to Him a son."

But himself. We are all born of God when we walk in the path of rightiousness. The rightious are like the stars of Heaven. Shining and untouchable like God himself. About God and his children it is said: He will gather his children like a hen gathers her chicks and protects them in the shadow of her wings. Muhammed again and again express his disagreement with Jewish and Christian doctrine. The way he understands God, a word like son is of this world and is something human and physical. The thing with God's son has to do with the Torah: that Jesjuah was a jews and a rightious one, even the prophecied King of Israel, King of Arch Michael who is the Prince of Israel. And it also has to do with the prophecy of Ezra. Just like we can say that we are children of a city or a nation, we can say that we are children of God. But it doesn't mean that God physically bore us forth. I believe this is what Muhammed argues against. He disagrees with the Hebrew terminology. Which is fair enough, for all the Christians have misunderstood what being a son of God means anyway, they have made it mean something else than it does. Jesjuah is the Son of God, he shall carry out the Will of God. Let's not make this into a discussion over terminology. The shool of Jesjuah calls us children of God. The school of Muhammed teatch that we are servants of God. I don't see how this should cause conflict. A son of God is a servant.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 17-2-2004 by Hamilton]

Originally posted by Thinker
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father; [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."

1 John 2:22-23

Well jesus has said what mohammed is

No you accuse Muhammed and every Muslim in this world falsely. Muhammed clearly says that Jesjuah was a Prophet and a Messenger. Who is a son of God, unless a Prophet and a Messenger is? Pilate confessed that Jesjuah was the king of the Jews. Would you call him rightious and a son of God? No. Because he blasphemed when he did what he did. It was pride that drove him. When Jesjuah had done the sign with the food in the desert, he ran away from the crowd to avoid them making him king. He forbid all his apostles again and again to call him Messiah. How can anyone call him Messiah before he has completed his Mission? "You are Kefas. From your rock my spring will flow." The rock in Simeon is the same rock Mosche came uppon in the Sin desert at Meriba. It is situated in the land of Simeon.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by Thinker
Then all the terroist killings around the world, plus hijacking which are supported in the koran.

You then say such a thing?

That you say this only shows your ignorance. Infact. The Koran condemns such acts as suicide killimgs. It even condemns destroying buildings and even a tree if it has still one green leaf left on it. You obviously just read what you want to read and shape it to fit yourself and your own kind. You are condemning and excluding. That is not the Way. What you demonstrates is called to read the Bible like Satan.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by Thinker
The Muslims dug trenches across from the marketplace, and in the morning Mohammed commanded that the male captives be brought out 5-6 at a time. The Jews were made to sit down at the top of the trenches. Next, the Muslims beheaded them and tossed their bodies into the trench. This sickening butchery by the "Prophet of God" lasted all day. It continued into the night by torchlight.

You haven't studied the Books of Hosea and Revelation very closely have you? You think Jesus is everyone who is in prophecy?

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 18-2-2004 by Hamilton]

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

Yes drop it, as soon as you realize that " prophet Muhammed " was not the " last " of the great prophets.

Did he not also say that no faith would be born after his?

Thier will always be prophets, and thier continue to be some to this day, shaded under mainstream religions, and some regarding simply as sects, and cults, or nondenominationals.

Have you heard of the AHMADI movement in Islam? The man who so blantantly claims to be the " Iman "?

Deep

Well, I didn't want to do this. I didn't want to come back to this thread but he made me.

Muhammad is the SEAL of the PROPHETS. That is it, there is no more after him.

Sukhism may have well been sprung right from Islam.

Islam is the last of the great religions, there is no more. It's the story of the three ring parable. There are only three religions that serve the one God, whether you call him Yahweh or Allah.

Every other religion sprung from these three religions.

I'm going to call Elijah Muhammad a prophet now, because according to your definition of a prophet it's easy for anyone to be a prophet.

Why not? Elijah Muhammad wrote books, he has his own scriptures, he found his own religion, he claimed God spoke to him and he has his own rules and guidelines in his religion and most importantly, he has followers.. just like Guru Nanak

So Elijah Muhammad is now officially a prophet.

I don't know if you were dropped on the head as a kid but you don't get the point of a IMPORTANT PROPHET.

Adam was important prophet because he was the first
Abraham because he was God's Chosen
Moses because he freed God's people
Jesus because he fulfilled the scriptures
and Muhammad because he gave the Arabs a peice of God's grace and salvation.


And your knowledge of Islam has officially come to an end with your "last Iman" saying.

Do you even know an Iman is a priest in Islam?

Al-Mahdi is only a Iman and Caliph.... just like the Pope... so is the pope a prophet too?

He will meet with The Prophet Jesus, that is what makes him so special and the Prophet Jesus will kill the al-Dajjal

You took long enough. Yeah Im just trying to be a thorn in your neck.

Adam was important prophet because he was the first
Abraham because he was God's Chosen
Moses because he freed God's people
Jesus because he fulfilled the scriptures
and Muhammad because he gave the Arabs a peice of God's grace and salvation

First off, prove the existence of the first 3.

Guru Nanak " founded " one of the largest Doctrines on this earth.
He gave many Indians, Hindu's, Muslims, Salvation and also " Gods Grace ". United and destroyed all castes, and taught utter equality amonst all.
Guru Gobind, fought and freed many opressed Indians from " Islamic mouguls ".

SIkhism never sprung from Islam, nor does it have any similarities within it.

Deep

Sikhism was initially founded by mixing in aspects of Hinduism and Islam, so essentially, it "sprung" from those two religions. All religions, in the end, preach the same thing, basically to be a good human being. Whether, it Islam, Xianity, Judaism, whatever, so all this bickering and "my God is better than your God" BS is pointless. I am a Muslim, by the way, and I dont judge anyone based on their religious beliefs.

Illmatic, my Muslim brother, your attacking of Deep is very un-Islamic and berating his religion by calling it "Sukhism" is disrespectful. He is entitled to his beliefs, and the Guru's were great men. To quote the Qur'an, "there is no compulsion in religion".

Deep, i've read the Garanth (sp?), and it is a beautiful piece of work. I used to live in Lahore, and have been to many of the Sikh shrines.