Was Muhammed a Christian?

Originally posted by intrepid
No disrespect Chicken but not all christian religions believe in the trinity. Jesus made many prophesies. Asked about the signs of the times and his return he said there would be "wars, and reports of wars, famine, pestilence, etc (Matt 24) if I recall. I read an artice on Islam and the difference between Judaism (and by extention Christianity) is that it was a split of Issac's sons. Jacob produced Judaism while Ishmeal produced Islam. As for Muhammed???????

I don't think you understand what neither we or you are talking about. Abraham "invented" both Judaism and Islam. Christianity is even more perverted than the Babylonian cults. Jesjuah came to gather the lost sheep of his people and to lift up the child who cries in the wilderness. You don't understand what this means do you?

I call myself a Christian, but I do so with shame and a woe, for most people who call themselves Christians don't care about anything else than the beautiful churches with all their gold and art, and the usual recitation of the "Christmasgospel" once a year for the right magical athmosphere.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 16-2-2004 by Hamilton]

I'm dropping the whole Guru Nakan dispute because I feel it's pointless. If you believe in it then go ahead, I can't stop you and I'm not here to preach to anyone.

Muhammad in the Book of Barnarbas:

www.answering-christianity.com...

Chapter 220

How many military battles did Jesus lead people into? Looks like Muhammed had a little bit more of a nasty streak in him when it comes to fighting battles. Of course they won their battles so we here how they were in the right and it was such a holy event. Forget about all the fighting and bloodshed, Muhammed had to kill the evil forces. Winners write history. He also had a lot of wealth that can not be accounted for. He may have been dealing some drugs, who knows. Muhammed was a person and I need to read a lot more on him before I can decide if he was great or not. From what little I have heard he sounds like any other man to me. He just wanted to make sure his name lasted in history. Jesus seems to be a a much more special person, at least to me. He seems like a more legit "prophet" or whatever you wanna call him. Like more of a person one could respect. I am not sure if I think he's the sone of God or maybe some half man and half alien. He could have picked up some amazing tricks when wondering around for so many years. I also think it's funny how Muhammed is said to be last and greatest prophit. Man, isn't that handy for him. Well, since he has come I guess we can't listen to anyone else who trys to tell us anything. Sounds like a good set-up to me.

[Edited on 16-2-2004 by Mandalorianwarrior]

I also tend to think Christianity has very little to do with Jesus anymore. I tend to think he would not be happy with the way things work in the religion as a whole. My post just above was a VERY late reaction to JC and Muhammed being compared. I can see many things they share in common but I can also see many differencs as well.

Jesus was the culmination of all the law and all the prophets. He was God come to earth in flesh. He called the people to God, but he was calling the people to God through himself. John called the people to God. Jesus called the people to himself.

The Jewish leaders asked him when he stood before them if he was the Son of God. He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

He didn't say "Sure." He didn't say, "I'm one of God's sons." He invoked the "I am," the same name God gave to Moses. This point was not lost on the Jewish leaders who immediately decided they had heard enough - Jesus had just blasphemed and called himself God.

Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic or he was who claimed to be, which was God. I don't really know how you can have it any other way.

Oh Net chicken, why have you tried this threaad out? joking. but you are right, even though it never seems to get through.



Matt 12:8

"" For the son of man is lord even of the sabbath ""



this was Jesus speaking to the jews about the sabbath.



this is all you need to know if you believe in the NT, and its as simple as sincerity.



Peace.

I'm dropping the whole Guru Nakan dispute because I feel it's pointless. If you believe in it then go ahead, I can't stop you and I'm not here to preach to anyone.

Yes drop it, as soon as you realize that " prophet Muhammed " was not the " last " of the great prophets.

Did he not also say that no faith would be born after his?

Thier will always be prophets, and thier continue to be some to this day, shaded under mainstream religions, and some regarding simply as sects, and cults, or nondenominationals.

Have you heard of the AHMADI movement in Islam? The man who so blantantly claims to be the " Iman "?

Deep

So you could not say you are the son of God? If there is a God then would we not all be a son of God? We were created in his image according to the Bible. I would think Jesus could say "I am the son of God" with having it mean the same. He didn't come right out and say, "Yup, my mom had sex with an angel and I am straight from God's (angel or whatever) sperm." Saying that "I am the son of God" seems kind of like saying nothing more than there is a God and I am created in his image. I could be wrong but that is my take on it. I think that Jesus was a great teacher regardles of what he was. I also wonder if the prophets tried to preach Jesus being the one and only "son of God" thing more than Jesus himself. Especially after his death, whenever that may have really come. Nothing like making a buck off of your fallen leader. There are so many view points out there and I'm just not sure what I believe yet. I don't want to kill my brain and fall into one mind set as of yet.

amazing.


peace.

[Edited on 16-2-2004 by Truth]

What is amazing?

Deep

what is amazing?


the never ending circle arguments.



meaning while the world continues to demise. I hope he comes soon.




This is just my opinion ZD, please take no offense to it.



peace.

No offense taken.

The world has always been in such demise, if it not were, we would not single out " sole " prophets to lead the path to enlightenment.

Deep

So since it's not your view then it must be wrong and the demise of the world? These debates go around in circles for a reason.

Maybe it's just important for people to find a belief system that works for them? I'm happy if someone has something working well for them in their life. I just think it's funny that an every day human being can laugh at others because they know that others are gonna burn in hell since they have some devine info that others can't see.

That seems kind of odd to me. maybe he will come, maybe he wont. Of course I used an exageration about the son of God thing with mentioning sperm and all but I see nothing wrong in that.

I just want to be honest with myself and not trust in JC out of fear and nothing more. I would think that the people who believe in Jesus just because they are afraid not to if he comes would be worse off if all about him being the son of God is true.

P.S. I do like these circle arguments however. Both Truth and ZD seem sharp as can be. I do appreciate the brains within this site. It's a nice change for once. Maybe it's running into these conversations that confuse me even more



[Edited on 16-2-2004 by Mandalorianwarrior]

Im not going there tonight Zero, I got praying to do, something ive been slacking on.


You know where I stand, so let me stand. I don't need to prove him to the world because he will do it shortly.




Good night. peace.

Maybe I should make myself more clear, Jesus and other prophets stuck out like sore thumbs through thier teachings of equality and salvation, which in these days in common place in which we call " secular " society.

Deep

If you believe Jesus will prove it to the world shortly than shouldn't it be your duty to prove it to people? I would imagine that Jesus would want it that way. For you to save as many as you can? Or would his second coming be for individual purpose rather than the greater of humanity and those who can still be saved?

warrior, before I leave, I have to say that (I) don't save anybody, God does.


God workds with men who are seeking, if they let him in he will guide them. So I don't ned to prove what ive seen in life. my proof is personal and not fictional, and whoever is seeking he will give a chaance for salvation. Im just a man who
has seen his work personally and prays for others to see it, aand if they do thats up to them.


I don't think like if I attempt to sav someone I recieve some token or something. We are talking about salvation. eternal life brother. in 100 years everybody in here will be forgotten and in the grave and this life is nothing compared to eternity. I don't need to argue to prove that which to some is not provable. the proof comes from sincerity, a gift that alot of people just do not haave anymore.



ask this.


Are you here to prove me wrong warrior?

or are you truley seeking God when you are from the computer in silence and open to where he leads you?



i have no clue what it is you are here for, but you do.



now im oficially going to bed. good night all.


peace.

3. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS AND MOHAMMED
Jesus' birth as the Messiah was prophesied in Scripture. Mohammed's birth as the so-called Seal of the Prophets was not.

Through many witnesses, the Holy Spirit established the lineage of the Christ from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob to the tribe of Judah and out of the house of David (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, 21:12, 22:18, 26:4, 28:14, 49:10; 2 Samuel 7:12-16; Psalms 18:50, 89:3-4, 89:20, 132:11; Isaiah 9:6-7, 11:1, 11:10; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 33:14-15). Moreover, it was prophesied through Isaiah that the Messiah would be conceived by a virgin (Isaiah 7:14). It was prophesied through Micah that he would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2). And, it was prophesied through the typology in the third and sixth chapters of Zechariah that his name would be 'Joshua' (of which 'Jesus' is the Hellenized form).

Who prophesied the birth of Mohammed as a true prophet of God? No one. No one except Mohammed. Mohammed wrote:

"Jesus son of Mary said, 'Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger of God to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tidings of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.'"

Surah LXI (17)
There is no record that the Lord Jesus said any such thing!

Throughout the Koran, Mohammed refutes that Jesus was the Son of God:

"The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him."

Surah IV (18)
"The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are!"

Surah V (19)
"The Creator of the heavens and the earth --- how should He have a Son, seeing that He has no consort, and He created all things, and He has knowledge of everything?"

Surah VI (20)
"The Jews say, 'Ezra is the Son of God;' the Christians say, 'The Messiah is the Son of God.' That is the utterance of their mouths, confirming with the unbelievers before them."

Surah IX (21)
"They [the Christians] say, 'God has taken to Him a son.' Glory be to Him! He is All-sufficient; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; you have no authority for this. what, so you say concerning God that you know not? Say: 'Those who forge against God falsehood shall not prosper. Some enjoyment in this world; then unto Us they shall return; then We shall let them taste the terrible chastisement, for that they were unbelievers [in Mohammed and the Koran].'"

Surah X (22)
"Praise belongs to God, who has not taken to Him a son."

Surah XVII (23)
"And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son' You have indeed advanced something hideous! The heavens are well-nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well-nigh fall down crashing for they have attributed to the All-merciful a son; and it behooves not the All-merciful to take a son."

Surah XIX (24)
"God has not taken to Himself any son."

Surah XXIII (25)
"He has not taken to Him a son."

Surah XXV (26)
"Is it not of their own calumny that they say, 'God has begotten?' They are truly liars."

Surah XXXVII (27)
"And when the son of Mary is cited as an example, behold, thy people turn away from it and say, 'What are our gods better, or he?' They [the Christians] cite him not to thee, save to dispute; nay, but they are a people contentious. He is only a servant We blessed, and We made him to be an example to the Children of Israel."

Surah VXLIII (28)
It was Mohammed's self-proclaimed mission ". . . to warn those who say, 'God has taken to Himself a son.'" (29) Yet, many have testified of the Messiah's Sonship. It was prophesied by the Holy Spirit through King David: "I will be his father, and he shall be my son" (2 Samuel 7:14). Through Isaiah: "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given" (Isaiah 9:6). Through Gabriel to Mary: "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest" (Luke 1:32) and "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). John the Baptist bore record that Jesus was the Son of God (John 1:32-34). God Himself testified twice of Jesus: "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED" (Matthew 3:17, 17:5; Mark 1:11, 9:7; and, Luke 3:22, 9:35). Saint Mark testified in his gospel: "Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (Mark 1:1).

Even the unclean spirits recognized that Jesus was the Son of God: "And, behold, they cried out, saying, 'What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?'" Matthew 8:29 (30)

To casual observers and lifeless Christians, that Mohammed claimed God had no Son in Jesus does not seem to be so very damaging: after all, they think, he did acknowledge that Jesus was a prophet, --- "a Messenger of God." These fail to see that for Mohammed to have stated that Jesus was not a prophet would have kept many from his own teachings; it would have precluded their even listening to his message. Further, these fail to see that Mohammed had to include Jesus within his teachings if he was to be more convincing concerning his own authority. It is easier to deceive if you pretend to build on an already-established foundation. It is easier to destroy if you claim a heritage in Truth:

"Surely We sent down the Torah, wherein is guidance and light, thereby the Prophets who had surrendered themselves gave judgment for those of Jewry, as did the masters and the rabbis, following such portion of God's Book as they were given to keep and were witness to. . . . And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and We gave to him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition unto the godfearing."

Surah V (31)
Mohammed tries to persuade us that the Koran is just as scriptural as the Torah and the Gospels. He tries to make it seem as if the Torah and the Gospels and the Koran are equal parts in a threefold plan of divine revelation to humankind. Why? The most effective way to win individuals over to your way of thinking is to, first, tell them what they already believe is true (so you don't alienate them) and, second, slowly persuade them that what they don't yet know or understand can be provided for, or answered by, your doctrines: the wolf-in-shepherd's-clothing approach, so to speak.

Both Moses and Jesus proved their words with works and signs following. The miracles performed through them punctuated the truths they spoke and the lives they lived. Christ Jesus said:

". . . for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me."

John 5:36
And:

"Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, 'Thou blasphemest;' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in Him."

John 10:36-38
Mohammed did not prove his words with works. Oh, he frequently proclaims that the Surahs (the main divisions or chapters) of the Koran are themselves "signs, clear signs." But there are no accounts of miracles wrought through him, save those unreliable that are attributed to him through the imagination and fancy of his followers. Mohammed tries to explain away the absence of such proofs this way:

"They say, 'Why have signs not been sent down upon him from his Lord?' Say: 'The signs are only with God, and I am only a plain warner.' What, is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down upon thee the Book that is recited to them [meaning the Koran]? Surely, in that is a mercy, and a reminder to a people who believe."

Surah XXIX (32)
"It is He who has sent His Messenger [Mohammed] with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may uplift it above every religion. God suffices as a witness."

Surah XLVIII (33)
Mohammed claimed that it was only for him to deliver "the Message Manifest," --- the final word from God. (34) He tried to delude the people into thinking that he was the Christ returned to earth. In doing so, the Devil sought to establish his authority for overturning the principles of peace, love, and forgiveness taught by the real Savior.

Jesus instructed us to love our enemies, to revile not when reviled, to forgive those who despitefully use us, and to refrain from judgment (the condemnation of our peers). Hear what Mohammed had to say on those topics:

"O believers, prescribed for you is retaliation, touching the slain; freeman for freeman, slave for slave, female for female . . . In retaliation there is life for you, men possessed of minds; haply you will be godfearing."

Surah II (35)
"And fight in the way of God with those who fight with you. . . . And slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you; [your own] persecution is more grievous than slaying [others]."

Surah II (36)
"Whoso commits aggression against you, do you commit aggression against him like as he has committed against you . . . "

Surah II (37)
"Prescribed for you is fighting, though it be hateful to you."

Surah II (38)
" . . . take not to yourselves friends of them [the disbelievers] until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them . . . "

Surah IV (39)
"This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off, or they shall be banished from the land."

Surah V (40)
"Fight them [the unbelievers], till there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely."

Surah VIII (41)
"It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter in the land."

Surah III (42)
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush."

Surah IX (43)
"Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day."

Surah IX (44)
"And fight the unbelievers totally even as they fight you totally; and know that God is with the godfearing."

Surah IX (45)
"O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness; and know that God is with the Godfearing."

Surah IX (46)
"The recompense of evil is evil the like of it . . . "

Surah XLII (47)
"When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads."

Surah XLVII (48)
"Mohammed is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another."

Surah XLVIII (49)
"Thou shalt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day who are loving to anyone who opposes God and His Messenger."

Surah LVIII (50)
"O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them."

Surah LXVI (51)
It should be clear that the literature of Mohammed is hateful, encouraging people to live both in fear and by the sword in judgment of one another. Compare the preceding quotations with the following instructions given by the Christ:

"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye: for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not, and ye shall not be comdemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete, withal it shall be measured to you again."

Luke 6:27-38
Having compared the previous passage with those immediately preceding it, which one of the two --- Jesus or Mohammed --- do you think is the true witness of the loving Father?

Considering what is written in the Koran, there should be little wonder why Bibles are not allowed into countries over which the banner of Islam flies. The people of those nations might be able to read:

"Thus saith the Lord: SUCH AS ARE FOR DEATH, TO DEATH: AND SUCH AS ARE FOR THE SWORD, TO THE SWORD: AND SUCH AS ARE FOR THE FAMINE, TO THE FAMINE: AND SUCH AS ARE FOR THE CAPTIVITY, TO THE CAPTIVITY."

Jeremiah 15:2
"Put up again thy sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

Matthew 26:52
"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword."

Revelation 13:10
"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather, give place unto wrath: for it is written, VENGEANCE IS MINE; I WILL REPAY, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good."

Romans 12:19-21
In short, they would find out that the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, --- the one of whom Christ Jesus came to testify, is a god of peace and love and not a god of war and hate. Moreover, they would learn of the Levitical high priest and his role as intercessor for the children of Israel, offering sacrifice once a year for their sins, and how Christ Jesus was sent to sacrifice himself "once for all" (Hebrews 10:10). They would learn how the Old Testament events, rules, and regulations were but a figure, or typology, of things to come. They would learn to understand the role of the Lamb as Intercessor for all nations under the sun. And, finally, concerning their relationship to Christ Jesus, they would learn that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Throughout the Koran, Mohammed attempts to undercut the role of Christ Jesus as Savior. He tries to negate that the Lamb "bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12) and that "he ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25):

"Intercessor there is none, save after His leave."

Surah X (52)
". . . no intercessors shall they have amongst their associates, and they shall disbelieve in their associates."

Surah XXX (53)
"Intercession will not avail with Him save for him to whom He gives leave."

Surah XXXIV (54)
"To God belongs intercession altogether."

Surah XXXIV (55)
". . . the evildoers [those who do not believe in Mohammed and the Koran] have not one loyal friend, no intercessor to be heeded."

Surah XL (56)
". . . no soul laden bears the load of another."

Surah LIII (57)
"Come, now, and God's Messenger [meaning Mohammed] will ask forgiveness for you."

Surah LXIII (58)
It is plain that Mohammed tried to set himself up in Jesus' stead. What of the crucifixion? In his own form of gnostic Docetism, Mohammed accounts it cruci-fiction:

". . . they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them."

Surah IV (59)
Guilty of the ultimate crime against God are those who say that Jesus is not the Christ and that He did not die for our sins. For that reason alone, Mohammed condemns himself and his followers (so long as they remain his followers). The Lord Jesus said:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 3:16-18
"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye shall receive."

John 5:43
"If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father."

John 15:22-24
Simply stated, without Christ Jesus we have no advocate with the Father. If we reject the one God sent, we reject the mercy He extends to us through that one.

Not trying to prove you wrong. I am just looking for the truth and asking a lot of questions because I would like to find it. What could be more importnat? I can not just hear someones view and fall head over heels for it. I have to ask and digest it. Then I have to ask other people about their beliefs. A lot of people seem so sure that they have the truth down and that everyone else is going to pay for being wrong. I just like to be a bit more open. Maybe being that open will be downfall. I am more likely to think that closing my mind could lead to my demise, kill my brain.

You're right, if there is a God the salvation wouldn't be provided by you but by God. Of course you would not get a token, at least I've never heard that theory before. Maybe the Catholics had something close to this in the past. I would just imagine that the truth has to get around somehow. Of course there is the Bible but I may put a little more faith into listening to other people than most do. It's important to hear what others have to say.

I'm not sure what I am searching for other than my truth. I would imagine that it will hit me like a ton of bricks when I find it within my heart. I have not found the truth if I have doubt in my heart. There is plenty of doubt remaining so I can not sell myself short. Questions are a good thing because there must be a flaw in ones faith if they are afraid of them.

I just figured I'd see what you thought about it all and I thank you for your views. Maybe they will work for me in the end and maybe they wont. Either way I know I am not doomed while I remain open and search for truth.

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father; [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."

1 John 2:22-23

Well jesus has said what mohammed is