England's New Super-Carriers

Originally posted by justwokeup

Originally posted by Choice777
Not to ruins everybody's fun but...
a) how smart is it to put such a large slow object into enemy fire ? |This type of carrier or a Nimitz carrier wuld be a sitting duck for any low flying kamikaze jet flighter. Or about any decent missile. not to mention that armies arund the world are making rail guns and terra watt lasers that could puncture straight into a carrier's fuel tanks and blow the whole ship in one move.
b) 1 carrier ( what's that 1 billion bucks ? ) + 40 jets X 60 mil. (2.4 bil ) ..omg.a very attractive target for a night strike composed of 3-5 kamikaze jets flying 7 m above sea level.

c) for all the flipping welding that goes into it, you'd think they could at least make it flipping submerge at least 20-30 m to give it a bit of stealth in case it needs it.

Thats why it will sail in formation with the worlds most capable air defence destroyer (type 45).

As for rail guns they are some way off and the range of the projectile is likely to be less than the range of an F-35s weapons anyway.

Lasers are line of sight weapons. Good luck getting close enough and surviving long enough to burn your way through a carriers hull without being sunk.

The biggest threat right now is still the attack submarine. Fortunately we also have some of the best of those.

I'll have to google this type 45 destroyer or what ever it's rel name is...anyway...
All what you've said gives me a neat idea on how to actually counter every form of protection such a convoy/group might have. it's so simple and cheap to build that i think once i have enough funds i'll go into business. :d

Here are some photos for you of the construction of the HMS Queen Elisabeth.

Stern flight deck section CB05b was fitted into place Thursday.





To the earlier contributor, this is how the flotilla will look, I think, although there might be a Type 26 & Type 45 destroyer instead of two Type 45's shown in this flotilla graphic. The most awful thing is that graphic could easily represent a half of the deployable English Navy of the future, with other ships being laid up due to expenditure issues, repairs & maintenance, crew leave etc.
Quite a thought.



Here is what I find awkward, the English Navy will have to depend on a helicopter for it's AEW, rather than an Osprey variant or a Hawkeye. I'm not sure the Merlin cuts it ... what do you think ?



The parliament National Audit Office (which I think oversees public spend in UK) reported yesterday about the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers. They said that the back/forward/back decision on whether the ships would operate cats & traps rather than a ski launch system has cost £74 million. But that the major, colossal screw up was taken by the last Labor government to slow the program down, that decision alone cost over £1.5 billion and produced no tangible benefit of any kind whatsoever. I'll say it again ... UK defence procurement is an absolute joke & those responsible for such losses should be brought to account.

But it's more than that now, it's more than just procurement. There are gaps developing in English defence capabilities. And that's because the powers that be havent got a clue what England's role in the world will be or what forces they'll need to meet that role.

ie theyre withdrawing the special forces Hercules aircraft, nothing will replace them. So how will you deploy the SAS etc ? Commercial charter ? Idiots. Too few heavy air transports. Too few heavy naval transports. How will you fight amphibious ops if one of the LPD's is mothballed and one of the Bay class ships decommissioned ? That is one of the important things and a way by which the UK is moving away from US & French thinking. HMS Queen Elizabeth & HMS Prince of Wales won't just be replacing the Invincible class, it's replacing so much amphibious operations too, whereas the US and French will retain amphibious vessels (eg French carrier CDG plus three Mistral ships).

A lack of maritime patrol aircraft, the Nimrods were cut up and replaced by ... not much. Think about that one ... no air cover for your fleet until HMS Queen Elizabeth comes into service & even then it's just a helicopter for AEW. That's really poor.

Where's the advantage in the F35B over the F35C ? Nowhere. There is no advantage at all, apart from the % of work which will be done in UK on each airplane. It's range over the F35C is less good, it can carry less munitions, it's more expensive to buy & will cost considerably more to service. In the longer term it wouldve been cheaper just having both carriers run catobar from day one. Hell, last month a leaked Pentagon report said that the F35A could be shot down every time due to cockpit visibility problems, the pilots don't have 360 degree visibility due to a blindspot in the 6 o'clock position .... the English MoD said in classic way that "they didn't know" whether that would be an issue with the F35B. Didn't know ? Bloody find out then.

The English procurement staff are unable to see more than a year into the future. It's all so short term, save a penny now despite that costing us the taxpayer pound in ten years time. And there's a total inability and unwillingness to buy off the shelf from overseas, that's because of the influence of the defense contractors & the merry go round so many civil servants & government ministers enjoy of working in their departments, ordering kit from these companies then leaving their jobs in the public sector with huge pay offs at your expense, only to be re-employed shortly thereafter by those same defense contractors as "special advisors".

Ugh. England did use to set the standard for it's Civil Service and propriety in public office. It's now as bad as France !!!

Everything's down to money I guess and it's easy to criticize. But why buy F35s at all ? No harm in the Rafale M or the F/A-18F, merde, both are astoundingly good aircraft, they could've been bought off the shelf and cheaper too.

Sorry that was a minor rant. I really hate to see money wasted. I'm a financial person in RL

reply to post by LeBombDiggity


Agree with most of what you say, couple of points.

The F-35 cockpit visibility issue is a bit of a red herring. The synthetic vision system will give 360 degree visibility through the airframe so being able to see with your own eyes is moot, or it will be by the time the RN are fielding in anger. This applies to all variants.

The F-35B vs F-35C isn't as clear cut and one sided as it appears. Yes the C has longer legs but it suffers in other areas due to the big wing. The F-35B will be adequate. Certainly a capability step change from anything the RN had before.

Military procurement is as much political as it as technical. There is a need to keep the UK defence industry afloat (Westland, Rolls Royce, BAe and others) that more often than not overrules other factors in procurement decisions. Thats why a Rafale buy wasn't seriously on the cards, or F-18E/F. The majority of the money spent would leave the country.

Other than that I think you are on the money.

BBC have reported from Rosyth about the building of the 2 aircraft carriers. The video presentation is quite interesting, it shows the sheer scale of the HMS Queen Elisabeth & the complexity of it's internals.

Apologies in advance if you are outside UK and unable to view BBC. he report might end up on Youtube or somewhere else. You can always try proxying in I guess.

www.bbc.co.uk...

I was reading too about the fate of the Invincible class light carrier HMS Ark Royal. She is to be cut up in Turkey, like the lead ship of her class. The thing I find interesting was a photo of her construction ... it looks positively antiquated compared to how these successor ships are being built.



Do these new construction methods represent a hazard to the ship in foul weather or in combat ?

Update time again.

Photos to come but reliably told that one of the aircraft lifts has been moved to the front of the dock.

Also the forward island radar cap is now on the deck adjacent to the island, to be fitted.

Following graphic shows assembly progress as of yesterday.



I think we're really missing a critical mass of ATS users who have an interest in naval/maritime matters, which is a shame. How do you folks feel about the creation of a very general naval thread that we can keep adding to, at least that way there should always be something fresh to retain our interest ?

More photos for you, which I ought to have posted earlier but I got waylaid by a screaming infant.

These are aerial photos of the yard at Rosyth from late April. Obviously you know what the carrier looks like (clue ... it's big and red colored), just for scale there's an SSN attack submarine in the neighboring dock, undercover for some reason, don't know it's identity unfortunately.







I don't think these are particularly flattering photos ... imho the ship looks as ugly as sin

it is not englands carriers it is the united kingdoms or what is left of it

is nice to see peoples hard earned tax dollars being wasted by the usual goverment cxxk ups nothing new there .

it would shock many non uk folk to see how many old age pensioners die in the winter from cold or people starve to death in hospital ??? i kid you not .

now the suicide rate is creeping up with many not being able to afford the new bedroom tax as BONO says every time i click my fingers a child dies on the planet ...

well stop clicking your fingers then BONO but hey lets be happy we got a shiny new carrier well over budget nuff said boys & girls nuff said

Enjoying the pics LeBomb

keep it up

Scotstoun yard have attached the polemast cartridge section onto the aft island, they couldn't do that while the island was in the assembly building due to restrictions height.

The aft island will be moved around the Scottish coast to Rosyth in Juin, weather permitting. Then it will be attached to the HMS Queen Elisabeth.

Btw 7 de-commissioned nuclear submarines are stored afloat at Rosyth until their fate is decided, the four Polaris ballistic missile submarines HMS Repulse, HMS Renown, HMS Resolution & HMS Revenge plus the attack submarines HMS Dreadnought, HMS Churchill & HMS Swiftsure.

Periodically they are docked for a hull inspection, the boat in the neighboring dock to the aircraft carrier is too short to be a ballistic missile submarine so it's Dreadnought, Churchill or Swiftsure being checked over.

I will continue to add to the pictures as and when I come across them. I hope you're enjoying them.

There's a good article about the training which Royal Navy crews are undertaking on board a United States Navy aircraft carrier, USS Dwight D. Eisenhower. The training is to re-acquaint the English crews with fixed wing aircraft operations, although I wouldn't have considered them quite as deficient in that regard as the article suggests.

Here's is a few key snips, with a link if you want to delve in more.

U.S. 5TH FLEET AREA OF RESPONSIBILITY (NNS) -- USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69) (IKE) is one of several U.S. Navy ships training British Sailors on large-deck flight operations as the United Kingdom prepares to launch the first Royal Navy aircraft carrier in more than 30 years. The US-UK Long Lead Specialist Skills Program (LLSSP) commenced in early 2013 with British Sailors aboard IKE and Wasp-class amphibious assault ship USS Kearsarge (LHD 3). The program is an opportunity for British Sailors to regain operational experience at sea while their carriers are under construction. "The training the guys have received on board is second to none," said Lt. Cmdr. Jon Llewellyn, aircraft handling and crash rescue firefighting staff officer at British fleet headquarters. "It's absolutely thorough, professional and valid. They're gaining experience out on the deck, which would be impossible for us to replicate in the UK at the moment." The British carriers under construction are the result of a strategic defense review by the British government in 1998, which called for a return to aircraft carriers. The first of the Queen Elizabeth class carriers will be 65,000-ton HMS Queen Elizabeth (R08), which will utilize the new F-35B Lightning II vertical take-off and landing aircraft. It is scheduled for sea trials in 2017.

America's Navy

And here is a nice shot from that website, it shows USS Dwight D. Eisenhower being replenished by USNS Walter S. Diehl, with the English Type 45 air defense destroyer HMS Dragon escorting. I keep having to crop these images unfortunately, ATS limits image uploads to 500k, which isn't good enough for many high resolution images. I will ask management via Board Questions to consider if this can be increased.

Some more pics for you, as promised.

The stern is slowly but surely coming together.



And this one's nice, could've been nicer though without the Scottish rain.
This is the first I've seen from the flight deck of the HMS Queen Elisabeth, I think that's one of the stern sections being swung in.

And the Queen's new ass is nearly ready for painting !



It's amazing how quickly these blocks are joining together.

Here's another view of the stern of HMS Queen Elisabeth, the hull is really quite enormous isn't it ?
Reliably told that the basics of the flight deck are in place. The airplane side lifts have still to be fitted, though.

Sorry for the slowdown in activity, the sun has appeared over Scotland/Écosse this last week and, well, my family & I have been enjoying it while it lasts (which won't be long haha)

Here are two photos taken this week, one at the assembly yard at Rosyth on the East Coast and one on the West at Scotstoun. Doesn't really show a lot more than before, the aft island is being made ready for it's journey.

May I ask a question ? I've noticed this as a feature in many British warships, I don't have the language to express what I mean but if you look at the aft island you'll see the "ribs" of the assembly sticking through the platework, it's the same with some other British hull designs sometimes too. Why does that happen ? Is it a peculiarity of the British designs or am I seeing too much in this ?

Originally posted by LeBombDiggity


ie theyre withdrawing the special forces Hercules aircraft, nothing will replace them. So how will you deploy the SAS etc ? Commercial charter ? Idiots.

Really? 47 Squadron already operate the replacement the C-130J C4/C5. The C-130K (Export designation for H model in UK service) first entered service in the 1960s and is being replaced by the C-130J C4/C5s.

Note the fit on the C-130J C4/C5s

www.touchdown-aviation.com...

reply to post by tommyjo


Yeah I think they're great pictures too

Originally posted by Geemor
all right, it is always so discouraging to see people drooling over these monstrous killing machines. yay to the aircraft fleets that can takeoff and land to these carriers after they have bombed some terrorists and civilians. does britain (or any other country) need these kinds of stuff? who is going to attack them? or are they perhaps build for attack purposes?

i gonna lol when i see one of these or other carriers that have costs millions of people's money to sink just because they collide with the tanker when docking. or one of those planes accidentally explode under deck sinking the whole crap. why do you people support building these things? honestly?

the support for these types of expenditures are from the military/industrial complex and the individuals that identify with said industry, imo.
also the warmongers that for religeous, economic, racist, etc reasons beleive in killing for the greater glory of the war machine. God wills it bs.

my bet is the construction of these machine of wars will continue untill the missile systems make them obsolete.

then like the wooden ships that ruled warfare, they will become history and mankind can invest their energy in better endeavors, hopefully.

Some more of the aft island.

Build diagram for HMS Queen Elizabeth as of this week.



Sponson 09 was added to the ship on Tuesday 11th. 2 pics as follows.
Only 3 sponsons now remain to be added.