France bans GM crops

Every time an agriculture thread pops up I want to puke from the bad information everyone continues to spread.

Who here actually farms for a living?
Who has actually grown a genetically modified crop?

I can answer yes to both.

For years our farm has grown GM canola. I would like to clear up a few things. First, there is no terminator technology in the seed.

You buy the seed and enter a contract. You basically agree to use the product for one growing year and thats it.

The seed that you harvest from that crop will grow the next year. If you want to you can, but that is against your contract. Do people do it? Yep.... Have people been caught? Yep....

You could grow other forms of canola. There is nobody trying to stop you. You can be all organic if you want to. There is nobody trying to stop you.

If people understood the sheer magnitude of todays farming they would understand why GM and non organic has its benefits.

Go throw some horse crap on 160 acres and try get 120 bushel/acre oats year after year. Good luck with that.

Organic is great on fresh fields (like after clearing trees etc) because there are high levels of nutrients. Every crop you grow will deplete that, organic or not.

We need the man made fertilizers to get the yields of today. If we were using modern technology (air seeders, gps etc) 30 years ago we would not have the yields we do today. We have the yields we do because of fertilizers and weed/pest control.

Organic is great for your backyard garden, but when you need those yields, it just doesn't happen.

I told a story a few weeks ago on how we seeded and harvest a field for our organic neighbor.

We used the same sort of machinery to seed 160 acres of organic oats and 160 acres of non organic oats.

We sprayed, used fertilizers etc and the neighbor field got nothing. At harvest we used similar machinery, even the same operators.

Our yield was 3 times greater. The fields were only miles apart. We got the same weather, the same rain, the same sun. Even the soil samples were similar.

The organic field had 3 years worth of natural material on it. 3 years worth of organic fertilizer.

If we are facing shortages of food (check out the grain markets these days), we need all the yields we can get. Yes you can get yields on organics, yes they can do well in certain conditions, but in the long run, they will never produce the same results, the results that we actually need.

The only way I can see pure organic agriculture really working is on an individual scale. If people grew enough food to sustain themselves, it may work. The benefit small scale farming has is things like water consumption. (something I do not need to worry about, I use no irrigation ever).

reply to post by Dulcimer


I know what you are saying makes sense in terms of getting the amount of food into the shops for the people to eat it.. however my concern is the health of the people. Maybe the way of the future is for individuals to own allotments and grow their own foods for their family,friends etc.. and beable to feed themselves in a healthy way. The problem is that there is to much demand on the farmers to deliver the quantities of food to the consumers. I know that when i used to grow carrots in my back garden they only lasted a day before they started to go limp, nowadays food is farmed and some days later its in the shops and then later on we then go ahead and eat it. how healthy is it to eat food that takes a week or so to get into our bodies for digesting? We all need to be eating organic food that is eaten within hours of picking to get the nutraints our bodies needs or we will need more food in our day to get all the nutraints that we need.

Originally posted by Dulcimer
Every time an agriculture thread pops up I want to puke from the bad information everyone continues to spread.

Who here actually farms for a living?
Who has actually grown a genetically modified crop?

I can answer yes to both.

For years our farm has grown GM canola. I would like to clear up a few things. First, there is no terminator technology in the seed.

So the canola seed you buy has no terminator technology, does that mean that this technology does not exist? No, it does not. We were not referring to the product you produce alone and to make it sound as if the discussion was about a single crop would be disingenuous.

If people understood the sheer magnitude of todays farming they would understand why GM and non organic has its benefits.

Go throw some horse crap on 160 acres and try get 120 bushel/acre oats year after year. Good luck with that.

Organic is great on fresh fields (like after clearing trees etc) because there are high levels of nutrients. Every crop you grow will deplete that, organic or not.

Your right it take a lot more than manure to keep fields productive. One of the biggest issues facing farmers today it the production of mono-crops. Tell me in the time you have been farming what have you learned about producing the same crop on the same land year in and year out with maximized production the main goal? Part of the dependence of the modern industrial farmer is the impacts of the production method. The dependence on petrol based fertilizers and pesticides is a product of the form of agriculture we practice.

I don't know how old you are, or how many generations of farmers there are alive in your family, but if you have members who go back a few generations ask them what the difference between farming today and farming 80 years ago was like. I assure you it is two different worlds.

We need the man made fertilizers to get the yields of today. If we were using modern technology (air seeders, gps etc) 30 years ago we would not have the yields we do today. We have the yields we do because of fertilizers and weed/pest control.

Organic is great for your backyard garden, but when you need those yields, it just doesn't happen.

To participate in the system you are in, you are right. But the idea that this is the only way to farm and to make a profit is simply wrong. There are plenty of examples of how agriculture can be made more friendly to the farmer, the earth, and the larger community(s) dependent on the farmer.

I told a story a few weeks ago on how we seeded and harvest a field for our organic neighbor.

We used the same sort of machinery to seed 160 acres of organic oats and 160 acres of non organic oats.

We sprayed, used fertilizers etc and the neighbor field got nothing. At harvest we used similar machinery, even the same operators.

Our yield was 3 times greater. The fields were only miles apart. We got the same weather, the same rain, the same sun. Even the soil samples were similar.

The organic field had 3 years worth of natural material on it. 3 years worth of organic fertilizer.

A tragic story to be sure I can't offer any explanation as I know so little about the situation.

If we are facing shortages of food (check out the grain markets these days), we need all the yields we can get. Yes you can get yields on organics, yes they can do well in certain conditions, but in the long run, they will never produce the same results, the results that we actually need.

Need? like the massive surplus of corn and other grains every year? What we need is a system of agriculture that does exactly what it is suppose to do, and was always able to do well, feed people in a healthy manner.

The only way I can see pure organic agriculture really working is on an individual scale. If people grew enough food to sustain themselves, it may work. The benefit small scale farming has is things like water consumption. (something I do not need to worry about, I use no irrigation ever).

Wiki Community Supported Agriculture

Local Food Web

Slow Food

Seattle Food Economy

Just a small taste of what is out there. I come from a long line of farmers in the Midwestern US. They all got run out of business as the roll of farmers and farming changed over the years. Food production did not use to be the way it is now, nor does it have to. There are alternative to the modern paradigm that are just as if not more efficient to the way food is presently produced.

I guess one import thing to add is that crops produced in non organic ways do have nutritional value. There has been plenty of research into the subject and I do have to agree that some organic products really are better for you (and tastier).

Cereal grains do have to have good protein content and weight. This is all measured when sold. If you produce a lifeless crop organic or not, it will will be worth less.

You could say our farm used to be organic, in my grandparents day. They never had the yields we do now. My dad would tell me how the crops used to be so thin and we would only fill one small truck.

Yes the pressure is on to get yields. I believe that is the main reason why farming has changed. It had to change. Unless people start eating less, or the population is cut by 50 percent, we will need to increase yields.

If the population of the world grows, the yield must grow.
If the urban centres grow, the yield must grow.
If the weather of the planet changes, the yield must grow.


I know that people hate when farmers spray crops. I do not like the idea myself. But you need to see the devastation that can happen if you do not.

In the past few years we have had trouble with something called bertha army worm in our Canola. The worms sure love the GM canola.... and they certainly do not die from eating it (they keep coming back year after year).

If you do not spray when you have an infestation, your entire crop could be wiped out. It was so bad on a neighboring field that you could hear them crunching away on the plants at night. If you walk through the field you would be covered in them. The yield of that crop was probably cut down 80 percent because they did not spray.

People have to realize the situation we would be in if we did not take these actions. I am almost certain we would be in a food shortage now if it were not for modern faming practices.

If I could produce the same amount of product with organic means and have no worries I would do it. (I would save on fertilizer, chemical, seed etc).

Maybe some areas of the world can get away with it (for now). Brazil comes to mind. But then again people hate them for clearing away forest...

There is no easy answer.

reply to post by Dulcimer


I'm not from Brazil, but I don't think it's any different there in terms of pest. In fact, it is probably worse. I'm from another rainforest country and we've got a great variety of bugs to contend with. The situation could be similar for Brazil. There's no easy (or pretty) solution here either. If we were to do it organically, the best way is to let the birds handle it (the pests). The downside is they'll eat the bugs (for protein) and the grains (for carbs).

World wheat stocks are down. This is why the product is going limit up on the market every day for the past few days now.

Canadian wheat stocks are down 30 percent from 2006.

U.S wheat stocks are at the lowest since world war 2.
www.brownfieldnetwork.com...


If the world had an abundance of product, Canola would not be worth 13 bucks right now instead of 8 last year.

If there were an abundance of malt barley, brewers would not be complaining about the price of product.

Think the way forward is for the people who want to eat organic to only eat organic... do not eat the other kind and to grow their own foods and to waste less food. The way is to search for ways to make it possible to make the organic farmers stay organic. And for the people who are not aware of how bad it is to consume chemcials to carry on doing so until they suffer the concequences. But the main aim is not to mix the crops.. to make organic, organic and keep it that way. So people have the choice. If organic farmers are in business and are making enough money to live off and understand how important they are to this planet and keeping its people healthy then they will still carry on producing organic products for the people who want it. I guess for now its balancing it out... until people become aware of the potential damaging effects of eating GM food.

hey you know what maybe gms crops are like making us like you know how the hulk got posioned and stuff- wull what if it was in our foods ands stuffs and countrys had a bunch of hulk people or like in 28 days later and the crops eventully make us all like zombys and stuff.i once read there were zombys in africa and stuff but idunno if that was true or not but it wouild suck if vegees made us into zombie people

reply to post by Pro-genetic


There may be benefits to GM food (though IMO, it should be far more researched before being put into a live field, much less fed to people). The problem is that they become patented and non-productive. The companies owning these patends are monopolistic in the extreme, and are able to quite literally force farmers ro plant their crops, go into debt, and rely on hte company for future seeds.

The combination of control and uncertainty regarding side effects is enough for me to think we need to put GM crops on the shelf. If you want more productivity, cool, I don't blame you, but we can seriously focus on improved farming techniques rather than this.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Pro-genetic

 

There may be benefits to GM food (though IMO, it should be far more researched before being put into a live field, much less fed to people). The problem is that they become patented and non-productive. The companies owning these patends are monopolistic in the extreme, and are able to quite literally force farmers ro plant their crops, go into debt, and rely on hte company for future seeds.

The combination of control and uncertainty regarding side effects is enough for me to think we need to put GM crops on the shelf. If you want more productivity, cool, I don't blame you, but we can seriously focus on improved farming techniques rather than this.

ok you know what obviosly they are not problems with goverment made crops cause they wouldnot feed us things bad for us cause a goverment is for THE PEOPLE OF THE COUNTRYS that put them in a office. so why would not they like send the bad stuffs to another country to feed them instead of theyre own peope that dos not even make sense

Everything in France tastes better and is natural organic thats why they banned it ,

reply to post by goodboy447


Taste is a matter of opinion!

And this thread got derailed a while back, im still waiting for evidence of Gm crops being bad for you, alll I am hearing is conjecture, a few post back someone was talking about Gm foods being responsible for the slow decay of mankind leading eventually to our extinction? All conjecture, it comes down to a matter of choice in what you chose? GM food or GM food cause everything and i mean everthing is genetically modified, those "organic" bushels of wheat, geneticaly modified in selective breeding,same goes for everything on the shelves! so yere all trying to argue for a position that does not exist!take the carrot, that was once purple! Am i getting through to any one at all?

[edit on 10-2-2008 by Pro-genetic]

All you people AGAINST genetically modified foods, watch this:

www.youtube.com...

Brilliant show.

Norman Borlaug is an amazing man...

Thank god the French agricultural industry has some balls

buy this book or see if you can read it on-line

Seeds of Destruction by William Engdahl

www.mindfully.org...

the geopolitical politics of GM food, when the USA loses it's financial (wall street competitive advantage) over the rest of the world, perhaps we will maintain our dominance thru agricultural means (biowarfare anyone)

know how many bush cabinet members have monsanto ties? more than you can fit on two hands

agriculture is big business, second to pharmacuticals


what are the long term effects of these things

are bee death's linked, my eyes are raised

i don't know what up with my comp. having trouble with external quotes (the following in a external quote from) organicconsumer.org

the exact link is found in page six of my bee smoking gun thread


"But, in every case, the Bt crops released in North America have been evaluated based on the toxicity to mammals and to the environment of the natural toxins, not the product of the synthetic altered genes in the GM crops."


here is a quote from Henry Kissinger a political heavy weight to say the least

" 'If you control the oil you control the country; if you control food, you control the population.' - Kissinger



[edit on 10-2-2008 by cpdaman]

I am glad to see the French take this step. I can only imagine that Monsanto will work non-stop to try to get Brussels to overrule them.

There is a lot of land in Canada and the USA that is currently covered with grasses in neighborhoods. All of that land could grow food, and it would be wonderful if every household grew and organic Victory Garden again (from heirloom seeds thank you very much!). And those in apartments can do a lot with container gardening.

Originally posted by Pro-genetic
reply to post by khunmoon

 

I was merly stateing that the link put up was anti capitalist in nature and attacked business practices rather than provided evidence of any kind.
which i am still waiting for by the way? I have provided evidence showing that GM crops are healthier where as all i have gotten in return are opinions!

Excuse me but I did post a link with all sorts of information on this that demonstrates everything everyone on this thread is saying and then some!
It is on page 1 and I clearly started with 'I urge you to read this..."

You seem only too happy in your ignorant bliss so I'm going to just leave it here.

sigh

Edited to add -

Look, at the end of the day I couldn't care less really, eat what you want and I shall do the same ... it's going to continue to happen regardless of what I or anyone, says or does. I just don't see how one can nod their head at this and then wonder why they get cancer later in life.
I just don't wish to unnecessarily take that risk as alot of people don't also. I avoid all things unnatural. I'm sure you'll even defend High Fructose Corn Syrup too huh ?
I have always eaten local/organic grown food and will continue to do so. And there is a huge difference in taste.

The same can be said for the meat & poultry I am used to consuming back home - farm fresh, no growth hormones, no pesticides, no anti-biotics involved - compared to the crap America's FDA sells to it's people.

But yeah, just continue to nod and smile and accept what they tell you


[edit on 10-2-2008 by ImJaded]

Originally posted by Quazga
Did you know that the biggest issue with GM vegetables is that they are typically modified in such a way that they will not reproduce? This is so people can not use them as seed and grow their own, but have to purchase more.

So you think this is quite alright?

Uhm, yes?

If you don't want it, don't buy it. Simple as that.

reply to post by Pro-genetic


Many studies have shown that organically produced food is much healthier. Here is one:

Researchers on the European Union study grew both organic and regular fruit and vegetables side by side on a site in Northumberland and compared factors such as nutritional quality. Produce compared included cabbages, lettuces, carrots, potatoes and wheat. The early results of the study carried out by Newcastle University show that organic fruit and vegetables have up to 40 per cent more antioxidants than non-organically grown produce. Also found in greater quantities in organic produce were vitamin C, and trace elements such as iron, copper and zinc. Even greater contrasts were found for milk, with organic milk containing between 50% and 80% more antioxidants and healthy fatty acids.

Organic food is healthier

It is my opinion that the world wide obesity epidemic is more a result of food not providing adequate nutrition than anything else. When you have to eat those 3 apples instead of the one you use to be able to eat, you are going to end up getting fat.

Of course, under the current system, you make 3 times as much money selling 3 apples than 1. Imagine if we could double yields again? Not only would it make the farmers and seed companies a ton of money, it would also spell the end of global warming as no one would be able to fit in a car any longer.

reply to post by ImJaded


Soory i didn read it earlier
So you would stop using anti biotics or anything not made in nature because someone is allergic to them, my brother would die if he ate strawberries(slight exageration but he would be f'd up and in hospital) so would you not eat them? is that what your saying?
www.village.ie...
www.guardian.co.uk...
And that post has a lot to do with pesticides which has nothing to do with GM foods more than any other crop.
That post also states that GM foods are responsible for the meteoric rise of cancer rates where as the WHO states "Investigations into cancer causation have revealed, according to the WHO report, that the most important human carcinogens include tobacco, asbestos, aflatoxins and ultraviolet light. In addition, nearly 20 percent of cancers are associated with chronic infections, the most significant ones being hepatitis B and C viruses (liver cancer), human papilloma viruses (cervival and ano-genital cancers) and Helicobacter pylori (stomach cancer). In developed countries chronic infection causation amounts to only 8 percent of all malignancies, whereas in developing countries up to 25 percent of tumors are associated with chronic infections" I see nothing about GM foods.

GM crops have been field tested and FAILED.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...&colorshift=yes

ignore the evidence at your own peril, there's no excuse for blindly following the party line, besides, there ARE documented cases of deaths and organic damage through GM.



www.aquarianonline.com...

furhtermore, quality control is nonexistant

www.lightparty.com...

query.nytimes.com...

iow, you have the choice to either let something, anything catch you unaware, from which point on ANY GMOs will probably be banned out of a knee jerk reaction OR relegate GMOs to biofermenters, where they can be used in relative safety. quality control MUST be seperated from the producers, though or the EMS scandal will surely repeat.

(mod-edit: fixed links)

[edit on 11/2/2008 by khunmoon]