Archbishop of Canterbury calls for Sharia law to operate in Britain

Archbishop of Canterbury calls for Sharia law to operate in Britain

www.thisislondon.co.uk

The Archbishop of Canterbury caused consternation yesterday by calling for Islamic law to be recognised in Britain.

He declared that sharia and Parliamentary law should be given equal legal status so the people could choose which governs their lives.

This raised the prospect of Islamic courts in Britain with full legal powers to approve polygamous marriages, grant easy divorce for men and prevent finance firms from charging interest.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Yes, it seems that there's really no point in "integrating" in Britain - I mean, why integrate when you have "great" figures like the Archbishop bending over backward to appease vocal religious minorities?

According to the "2001 Census" for Britain, approximately 2.7% of the population was classified as "Islamic" (outdated, of course and for that I apologise):

www.statistics.gov.uk...

Is this a 'sign of the times'? Is a "secular" legal system compatible with a "religious" one?

I'm not sure if this is quite as "conspiracy-worthy" as Leftist Noam Chomsky comparing the U.S.A to Nazism, or "In God We Trust" being retained on the U.S. coins, but it is certainly "food for thought".

www.thisislondon.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

reply to post by Chaoticar

why would any western culture want to follow this shiria law...you have to insane to do this...what is wrong with these peope?

Originally posted by jimmyx
reply to post by Chaoticar

 

why would any western culture want to follow this shiria law...you have to insane to do this...what is wrong with these peope?

Well, European governments have already proven quite..."adept" at preferring Muslims over non-Muslims in relation to justice.

And, if you thought it wasn't "bad":

Study alleges "honour killings" conspiracy

Police and authorities "afraid to act against honour crimes in case they are called racist"

Britain gives formal recognition to polygamy (already mentioned, as I am well aware)

"We want to offer Sharia law to Britain"

Bishop warns of no-go zones for non-Muslims

And I'm afraid it seems like it's only going to get worse if nothing happens soon.

You might not like Sharia Law but how will it effect you personally?

Integration goes both ways. Why can't society change to allow other citizens the freedoms they desire? You want immigrants to integrate and be part of your society but at the same time you are alienating them by not allowing them to practice what they have all their lives. You want immigrants to respect your culture then you need to learn to respect theirs.

It won't effect anybody but Muslims...

when you go to someones home and spit on their furniture and say 'well i do it at my house ' is that ok?

reply to post by ANOK


When someone comes to my door and asking me to help them, i assume that they don't thank me by forcing me to live their way in my own house If you don't like the way our laws are, change them via normal prosess or go back to where you came from or where Sharia is used today.

Parts of Sharia is already practiced in two EU countries. Bulgaria and Greece (Thrace). There Muslims practice the part of Sharia that handles mariage, divorce and custody cases. Goverments also offered them to practice inheritance law portion of Sharia but Muslims refused that.

But there were some documented cases by Helsinki human rights Monitor of missuse of Sharia in Thrace where certain families were selling 13-years old girls for 3000 Euros a pop. Selling women for mariage is also practiced in some small city near Prishtine in Kosovo where they parade women in open market and when you choose one, you sit down with the elder of the family to close the transaction (land or cash).

The penal/criminal part of Sharia cannot be practiced in EU states, because the State has the monopoly on repression, and because we are secular. Penal/criminal part of Sharia in also not practiced in progressive Muslim States.

Now, I personally have nothing against parts of Sharia law (I think it is very effective if practiced properlly), but are women down with that? I mean, I don't hear anybody asking Muslim women for an opinion. I also don't hear any women rights activists protesting. Or media just don't want to report that?

[edit on 8-2-2008 by yanchek]

Originally posted by northwolf
When someone comes to my door and asking me to help them, i assume that they don't thank me by forcing me to live their way in my own house

If you don't like the way our laws are, change them via normal prosess or go back to where you came from or where Sharia is used today.

Where is anyone forcing you to do anything? I asked how is it going to affect you personally? Is it? Or are you just scared of other peoples culture?

It's a law that would allow them to do what it is they do under their Sharia law, how is it forcing anything on you?

I don't think Muslims, all 2.7% of them, are going to force you to do anything...
It's just hysteria over nothing. I'm not saying I agree with Sharia law or even if they should be allowed to practice it, but I like to have the freedom to practice my culture (which a lot of people hate and wish to remain illegal) and I feel everyone else should to. If it infringes on me, or anyone it shouldn't, then it should be stopped. But I doubt it will ever come to pass anyway...

How many of you know any Muslims? Talked to any? Would you befriend a Muslim? If not why not?

reply to post by yanchek

Parts of Sharia is already practiced in two EU countries. Bulgaria and Greece (Thrace). There Muslims practice the part of Sharia that handles mariage, divorce and custody cases. Goverments also offered them to practice inheritance law portion of Sharia but Muslims refused that.

Personally i dont think it should be made a big issue aswel because if the Muslims want it and their community wants to adapt it than it should be allowed.

But there were some documented cases by Helsinki human rights Monitor of missuse of Sharia in Thrace where certain families were selling 13-years old girls for 3000 Euros a pop. Selling women for mariage is also practiced in some small city near Prishtine in Kosovo where they parade women in open market and when you choose one, you sit down with the elder of the family to close the transaction (land or cash).

We should differentiate between religion and culture.I have observed some Muslims dont have much knowledge about their own religion and adapt their previous ancestoral practises along.

Now, I personally have nothing against parts of Sharia law (I think it is very effective if practiced properlly), but are women down with that? I mean, I don't hear anybody asking Muslim women for an opinion. I also don't hear any women rights activists protesting. Or media just don't want to report that?

Muslim women seem to know what they want and dont want.I mean you dont see European Muslim women going on demos because their men/Islam are not treating them well.Muslim women who have knowledge of Islam know what rights they have and how they should be treated.

We have to start getting the stereotypical (opression) view of muslim women out of our mind.

The archbishop long since lost his credibility, it is no wonder Church of England attendances are plumetting when good little house dhimmis like this cretin come off with crap like this.


There should be no "dual" legal system, no matter how minor, even if it is limited to civil matters- that in itself is wrong, divisive and downright insulting and colonialesque by muslims and their indigenous apologists, PLUS if anyone thinks this isn't a slippery slope, then they are naive, stupid or scared.


If people are not happy with the system in our country, they can move elsewhere- something which white (nominal) christians have been doing in large numbers for the last 20 years- if any muslim wants to do likewise, then happy days

Originally posted by ANOK
You might not like Sharia Law but how will it effect you personally?

Let's see what Dr Hasan, who is a spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain on issues of sharia law, says shall we?

"Even though cutting off the hands and feet, or flogging the drunkard and fornicator, seem to be very abhorrent, once they are implemented, they become a deterrent for the whole society.
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"This is why in Saudi Arabia, for example, where these measures are implemented, the crime rate is very, very, low," he told The Sunday Telegraph.

In a documentary to be screened on Channel 4 next month, entitled Divorce: Sharia Style, Dr Hasan goes further, advocating a sharia system for Britain.

"If sharia law is implemented, then you can turn this country into a haven of peace because once a thief's hand is cut off nobody is going to steal," he says.

"Once, just only once, if an adulterer is stoned nobody is going to commit this crime at all.

Source - Telegraph

Still think it will only affect Muslims? Still think they only want a few bit's of Sharia? The goal, as set out by the above "Dr" Hassan, is to spread Islam and the rule of Islamic Law.

Originally posted by ANOK
Integration goes both ways. Why can't society change to allow other citizens the freedoms they desire? You want immigrants to integrate and be part of your society but at the same time you are alienating them by not allowing them to practice what they have all their lives. You want immigrants to respect your culture then you need to learn to respect theirs.

It won't effect anybody but Muslims...

How absurd.

We didn't force them to come here.

We allow them freedom of religion and other freedoms, which they deny themselves.

Your BS about us integrating ourselves into their culture is offensive. They came here, not the other way around. I am under no obligation to take on board any part of their culture, nor do I want to. They, on the other hand, have a social obligation to integrate into the society to which they moved.

To please one group on a pedastool above any other is not helping matters, but for too long the Muslim Council of Britain has had the ear of powerful people and things are being changed against the will of the British people.

Well then, perhaps all the Indigenous Australian's can go to the UK and demand recognition for Customary Law over there?

Cos, they can't get recognition for it here...

It is one thing to respect anothers culture but to expect the laws in another country be changed to suit their own culture is a bit much.

Why bother even leaving the country your from?

excellent post stumason

Originally posted by blueorder
excellent post stumason

Make that two.

If Muslims want to be be ruled by their law, then go to a country that uses that law. Muslims that are born in this country have always had to follow English law and personally i get on well with Muslims but you can't have one set of rules for one and one for another.
It riles me that Muslims can now claim benefits for more than one wife when it is against the law in this country to have more than one wife.

This country is going to the dogs and has been for a long time.
Glad i got that off my chest.

Originally posted by jon1
Make that two.

If Muslims want to be be ruled by their law, then go to a country that uses that law. Muslims that are born in this country have always had to follow English law and personally i get on well with Muslims but you can't have one set of rules for one and one for another.
It riles me that Muslims can now claim benefits for more than one wife when it is against the law in this country to have more than one wife.

This country is going to the dogs and has been for a long time.
Glad i got that off my chest.

you certainly aren't alone, and I repeat, the emigration OUT of the UK in the last 20 years has been phenomenal, and it has largely been a white exodus (naturally from a Christian, however nominal, background)- nobody got outraged at this exodus and I would not be outraged if thousands of muslims felt this country did not express their religous needs sufficiently and decided to leave the country.

Never forget muslims make up 3% (known) at present of the UK populace, what demands would be made when they get into double figures..................

I've listened to the Archbishops interview twice now on the BBC Radio Four web site and I think he is being incredibly naive.

Many people promoting Sharia Law point to the Jewish Beth Din Courts which operate in the Uk and say "why not us?'. These courts Judge and mediate on matters relating to marriage/Divorce and property rights. However, they in no way supplant the Law of the land. If they grant a divorce you are still obliged to take the normal civil legal proceedings to have the marriage annulled. If any person is unhappy with the judgement of these courts, they can have it challenged under English law in a Court of Law. Beth Din courts do not stand above the English legal system and their judgements are subject ultimately to English law.

There has been a lot of encouragement over the years for this sort of mutually agreed mediation and it does work well for many people. However, I get the impression that some people arguing for Sharia Law want more than this, namely a completely separate legal system and this simply won't work. Even if sharia was simply used for the Divorces, there is still the fundamental problem that under Islam, a women is not considered equal to a man. Neither is her evidence or testimony. I should add that I have yet to hear one cogent and detailed description of what Sharia involves from any Muslim commentator over the last 20 hours of new coverage. Every comment seems to contradict one made previously and this is a huge problem when trying to discuss this issue rationally.

The reaction to The Archbishops comments have been pretty startling and I'm concerned that we may be approaching a 'Tipping point' in attitudes and tolerance levels as a result of the demands being made by some sections of the Muslim community in the UK. This can no longer be dismissed as racism or working class prejudice. There is also a perceptible change in the attitudes to be found amongst the white liberal middle classes towards Islam. You cannot have two equal legal codes operating in one society, particularly when one of those codes if founded on laws which are offensive to the majority of the people in that society.

reply to post by ANOK


So basicly what you're saying is that all of us could go to the middle east unpack our things, and choose our own laws to live by?
An example... my eldest son steals an apple and some change from a beggar. He's then apprehended and brought to court.
Now, how do I say to them they cannot cut of his hands, they can only give him a "mild" sentence and pay for the apple and give back the change?

The old saying goes, when in Rome... this still holds merrit and always should. You can't in one go say "I support human rights and freedom" and on the other hand say "I wish to support this religion that behind closed doors in many cases treat women disgracefully and see honorkilling as a way dealing with family problems".

I'm red and liberal myself but not so red that I can't see that mixing two so vastly different cultures is only going to # things up more.


reply to post by Stumason

I hadn't read your post before I wrote mine Stu, but I see you and I once again share the same view. Yours however explain it much more clear than mine... cheers

[edit on 8/2/08 by flice]

[edit on 8/2/08 by flice]

reply to post by ANOK


My opinion is that law in a country must be the same for all. You cannot punish a muslim for drinking if a christian can't be punished. I don't mind people living with Sharia restrictions in mind, but enforcing those practises to others is a violation of most western countries constitutions. Thus Muslim communities cannot be allowed to police themselves with rules that violate other laws of the country.

Drinking is not a crime.
Adultery is not a crime.
Atheism is not a crome.
So why should we make them crimes?
Just because some Muslims want to? Then lets ban Burkhas and long beards. Why? Because i want to...

And yes, i know ~20 Muslims at our university, nice chaps and i have nothing against them as they live their lives like they want and don't bother anyone else. And i've traveled in Middle-East: Jordan, Bahrain, UAE...



[edit on 8-2-2008 by northwolf]

reply to post by flice


I think the saying should be now,

"When in Rome, build 16 Mosques, have call to prayer blasted out of speakers (As Oxford Council are planning to allow!!!!), convert the heathens and behead anyone who complains"....

Now, I don't mind immigration, but it must be controlled and beneficial to the Nation. Unmitigated flows of people from completely alien lands, with values different to our own, bringing their extended families as well is only going to cause society to fracture. This nation was built on immigration of dispossessed people, but these were at least similar in thinking to our own ways.

Strict Islam is not compatible with British life and should not even be entertained in Law, or the benefits system (see Polygamy Legal and the State will pay you for it - As long as your Islamic). If they want to endorse Polygamy, they should make it available to all, provided all parties involved in the Polygamous marriage consent to it. If it's just a special rule for one group, this is discrimination.

Flice, nice to see you and others are feeling the same way. Almost everyone here at my work agrees with the general disdain and utter disbelief of the things that are being touted now.

If this goes any further, I am afraid Enoch Powell's prediction of "Rivers of Blood" may well become true......

[edit on 8/2/08 by stumason]