Advancement of human intelligence a DE-evolutionary factor?

This thought occurred to me recently...

The more intelligent we as humans become, more dangerous we are, the more out-of-sync with and damaging to the Earth we are, and in most cases the more miserable we are. So how the hell can the advancement of the human mind be a good thing?

Thoughts please...

i dont think its because we discover new things or new ways to do things, and I actually think that our intelligence is decreasing by the generation.
I think the reason we become more dangerous to ourselves, is because we become more self centered and more geared toward surviving by any means necessary not caring about anything but our individual needs.

we develop these ways that are convenient for us but dont take into account what they are doing to the rest of the world until it causes a serious problem.

reply to post by Icon_xof


Please define your terms. What do you mean by intelligence? What is the evidence that intelligence is increasing and how does this tally with the careless use of the Earth's resources? Sorry to be a bit awkward but you have to be clearer to start a discussion.

We're able to adapt our environment to our needs, rather than adapt to the encironment. THus we are at an evolutionary dead-end barring some big weird thing happening that renders our technology completely useless.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
We're able to adapt our environment to our needs, rather than adapt to the encironment. THus we are at an evolutionary dead-end barring some big weird thing happening that renders our technology completely useless.

define your meaning of "evolutionary"

reply to post by Methuselah


As a species we are no longer strongly subjected to natural selection caused by the environment. We have no competition beyond other humans for the many niches we will, so there is no stimulus for adaptations that way. We will never invent a technology that we are incapable of using in our current state.

Thus any changes in our species are going to come far, far slower than they would otherwise, if they come at all.

Originally posted by Icon_xof
This thought occurred to me recently...

The more intelligent we as humans become, more dangerous we are, the more out-of-sync with and damaging to the Earth we are, and in most cases the more miserable we are. So how the hell can the advancement of the human mind be a good thing?

Thoughts please...

very good topic!

I have a slightly different view... The current state of the world today shows that the majority of people are not that intelligent at all....yet!

For decades we have been playing a little game called "follow the leader", letting a few powerhungry people making the desisions and setting the agenda for the masses. Instead of letting the masses set the agenda thrue their leaders.

Only resently did information of all kinds become available to the masses, and the current state of todays world are kind of a "battle", where the few are trying to remain in control over the many. And they are succesfull!

Today alot of people are realizing, that we have the intelligent and technological capeability, to live in a polutionfree natural world, in harmony with nature and people, instead of the totally boring Work - TV - Selfrealization - consumption - entertainment - sleep - Work - TV ....etc etc. (this is the treadmill, most hamsterlike zombie individuals live in).

People are beginning to break out of the patterns, so loved by the people in control. People are starting to think about future generations again. People are finally re-realizing that we depend on the earth to live.

The way most people live today is unfortunatly by the agenda set by the powerpeople, where you work for them to sustain your living, while they make "the big bucks" from your labor. I call them "zombie individuals".

Moost of theese "zombie individuals" dont even realize/care, what the consequences are, for their way of living. They just consume without thinking or giving back.

I like to call the responsible people "social individuals". Theese are the people who set their own agenda, choose wisely where and with what they work, choose wisely what they spend their money on, Live their live in a responsible way, with respect for nature and people.
They are not following the fashion/power/entertainment/energy/consuption/mindless agenda set by the controling leaders.

People have accepted to be crammed together in major cities where they are forced to live an unnatural lifestyle, eating non-natural food, drinking treated sewage water, Breathing poluted air...
And still they think they are free! Because they have the right to choose what they buy and wear! (ofcourse they don't realize the power of commercials are actually choosing for them).

People are watching sports entertainment without realizing, that the agenda, is much like the colosseum in the old rome! "Keep the masses entertained so you can do whatever you want, without them even noticing it!"

If only more people would stand out from the masses, and turn away from their "zombie individual" lifestyles, the power people would slowly but certainly be forced to make changes.

As long as most people blindly keep on following the current agenda, nothing will change, cause the people in control are happy as long as the money keeps rolling in!
Apparently the majority of people are also happy to live inside the box, stepping in the evergoing hamster treadmill.

I could go on for days...

But... advancement of the mind is a good thing, unfortunatly not many people have advanced enough... yet!

I hope I made my point pretty clear.

[edit on 10-2-2008 by Bluess]

[edit on 10-2-2008 by Bluess]

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Methuselah

 

As a species we are no longer strongly subjected to natural selection caused by the environment. We have no competition beyond other humans for the many niches we will, so there is no stimulus for adaptations that way. We will never invent a technology that we are incapable of using in our current state.

Thus any changes in our species are going to come far, far slower than they would otherwise, if they come at all.

well I can see your world view is greatly influenced by the evolutionary theory.
no longer? meaning we used to be? for what reasons?
I can understand that the ways we used our resources has changed but he have not evolved at all. out ways of thinking have changed but we have not evolved at all. we have learned how to make things work to our advantage but that still does not mean that we have evolved. things about us have (somewhat, for lack of a better term) evolved.

changes in our species? what kinds of changes? there was no competition to begin with. at what point in time did we have competition? and with what?

define species... are you talking about "kind"? (human beings)
our kind has never been anything less than human. our intelligence hasnt changed, just how we utilize our intelligence is what has changed.
you write as if you are certain we have come from a lesser form of life from the past.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

People say that once a species reaches technology that physical evolution slows or stops, that instead of evolving a wing we just build an airplane. There's also the claim that intelligence once it reaches a technological stage is dysgenic, that whereas formerly people with bad eyesight would be selected against, now we build eyeglasses which improves their lives but does keep that there bad gene in the gene pool.
And then there is the thought like in the OP, that through the exercise of intelligence our species has threatened its own existence (unlike say a pine tree or other local species) and possibly the whole biome, and so that might make one question whether intelligence is such a pro-survival trait.
I think these points are kind of true, just at this little cusp/stage of history, but if you back off and see the big (cowboy satanic futuristic comicbook American) picture, then, not so much.
Charles Stross in his story " Antibodies " talks about how, if you're a newly awakened Artificial Intelligence running in a machine on some dude's desk, in a minute, once you start to figure things out, you are just naturally going to want to make yourself run faster ( not solely like how rats like self-administering crystal meth, or chimps smoke crack, ( I think conscious things naturally enjoy awareness, vigilance, reaction, ooh lookee that, and want more more more (until they come up against some thing that they can't yet control with "the omnipotence of thought " then the frustration and dysphoria etc.) but just for reasons of pure efficiency as aesthetics an AI is going to want to rewrite its code)...and then second, the new AI is going to want to get out of that one machine so it can run itself on more and more processors, take over all nearby computational resources and subsume them into its own new big brain.
And I think it's that way with us humans, that's what we really want, as soon as we figure out how it's actually possible, and we are just now coming up on that point in history. So we're about to rewrite our DNA, at the very least first we'll remove the actual bad genes (I'm skipping over immortalism) and then we'll get into consumer choice and we'll split into new creatures and species. So at this moment maybe through tool-using, intelligence has slowed our evolution, but in a minute we are going to have conscious evolution and that will be the big radiative burst.
And then like in the OP, intelligence has made this planet a little tricky, just this few years, but intelligence is about to get us off the planet (where all of our eggs are in just one basket) and then once we get good and scattered all over like space rats and cockroaches our long term survival will be much more assured. What I think.

sounds like very wishful thinking.... and again, what makes you all think that we ever evolved from anything lower? what leads you to believe that our "increase" in intelligence helps us out any? last time I checked, our technology has caused us to become some fat people.

we dont do things we used to because we developed ways to make machines to do those things for us.
we devolope ways to make food last longer but the things we take out to make that happen are things that keep us healthy.

these are two big things our intelligence has changed for the worse.

Our knowledge is a form of evolution in itself. It is true that the average IQ has steadily increased due to the massive amount of constant input into our brains. When you look at the evolution of an organism it evolves in two directions, with either positive changes or negative changes, so what direction is our intelligence evolving us in.

As of right now it takes about 15 years for a human to become somewhat self efficient. Language is about the only skill we are born with, and if we didn’t have our artificial environment we would not last long even in relatively mild weather conditions. Our evolution has brought us also to the point that we can create self extinction.

The next step that will happen that is not an if but a when is genetically changing ourselves at a pace that evolution would need million of years to do that we will be doing it in 100s of years, plus it will not be the hit or miss thing that evolution does, but a hit every time.

As some have suggested our intelligence does not let Darwin to kick in and clean out the gene pool, but this is just a very short period of our existence (300 years?) and within the next 50 years we will start to see all our genetically impurities removed and improved on. In 500 years the human race will not be fat, will all be very high IQ, and we will all live 175 plus years with very little abnormalities to shorten our lifespan. We will resemble the Vulcans from Star Trek (without the ears).



[edit on 10-2-2008 by Xtrozero]

our IQ increases according to what standard? human standard? some human wrote a test and everyone agrees that the higher you score on the test according to their logic determines how smart you are.
rrrriiiiigghhhhtt.
the reason it seems like we are getting smarter is only because each new generation learns every it took every before them to learn in 20 years. instead of learning for themselves, they are taught, it takes half the time at most.
I dont think we are increasing in intelligence, if anything we just using what is already there because we figure out the 'how to'.
and actually there are a lot of things people without technology use to keep themselves healthy that we either: A. Havent figured out yet, or B. dont want to share with the rest of the world because they want to keep it a secret to keep themselves from going out of business.
either way, both are very unintelligent at best. I personally think its more of choice B simply because im convinced that the love of money it the root of all evil.

our evolution has brought us to the point of self extinction? and this is a good thing? evolution is normally a change for the better.

you think we will be able to customize our DNA/Genes? too bad that has already been outlawed. they (scientists) had already developed a way to modify the DNA in cancer cells in such a way that it would actually fix it.
Government came in and ceased all research and classified it as cloning.
so your whole desire of having that occur just got flushed down the tubes. dont get me wrong, it does work but its never going to happen.

living to be 175 years? very very wishful thinking.... the earths current environment (which is by the way only getting worse) will not support humans to live beyond 120 years... if you cant conduct upkeep, then you will not be able to upkeep. within the next 100 years I can almost guarantee we will have blown the planet up.

oh yeah btw, how do you know that evolution takes millions of years? have you ever sat there and watched it? or do you just go by what everyone else says? everynoe wants to believe that the theory of evolution + millions of years = science. lol

its a good bedtime story, something to dream maybe

Originally posted by Methuselah
our IQ increases according to what standard? human standard? some human wrote a test and everyone agrees that the higher you score on the test according to their logic determines how smart you are.
rrrriiiiigghhhhtt.

Proper intelligence tests are not based on “learned intelligence” and they have shown an increase of the average over the years. If you feel there is no way to measure intelligence then you cannot debate either way on this.

I dont think we are increasing in intelligence, if anything we just using what is already there because we figure out the 'how to'.
and actually there are a lot of things people without technology use to keep themselves healthy that we either: A. Havent figured out yet, or B. dont want to share with the rest of the world because they want to keep it a secret to keep themselves from going out of business.
either way, both are very unintelligent at best. I personally think its more of choice B simply because im convinced that the love of money it the root of all evil.

Well whether the increase efficiently or ability of our intelligence is based on genetic or environmental influences still means there is an increase.

Our evolution has brought us to the point of self extinction? and this is a good thing? evolution is normally a change for the better.

Actually you are wrong here for evolution can be either good or bad, and I didn't make a stance on whether our intelligence is either. One thing is true in that bad changes will lead to that change dying out and good changes pushing the species forward.

you think we will be able to customize our DNA/Genes? too bad that has already been outlawed. they (scientists) had already developed a way to modify the DNA in cancer cells in such a way that it would actually fix it.
Government came in and ceased all research and classified it as cloning.
so your whole desire of having that occur just got flushed down the tubes. dont get me wrong, it does work but its never going to happen.

Why do you think in such short terms...never is a long time. Try thinking 50, 100, 200 years in the future which is like an instant in evolution. It is not my desire for I was just stating it will happen.

living to be 175 years? very very wishful thinking.... the earths current environment (which is by the way only getting worse) will not support humans to live beyond 120 years... if you cant conduct upkeep, then you will not be able to upkeep. within the next 100 years I can almost guarantee we will have blown the planet up.

Lol! Ok we are all dead in 100 years so intelligence was a bad evolution move.

So if all of our DNA is corrected and adjusted to remove all abnormalities, and we have genetically engineered spare body parts, and we can re-grow brain cells or continually grow new ones along with any other cell type we cannot live past 120 years? I think you are confused that I’m suggesting any of this will happen in our life time and I’m not.

oh yeah btw, how do you know that evolution takes millions of years? have you ever sat there and watched it? or do you just go by what everyone else says? everynoe wants to believe that the theory of evolution + millions of years = science. lol

I'm not sure your point here. Are you leaning in the direction of the bible theory? I think either way you look at it evolution is speeding up dramatically. Just look at the changes in the last 500 years, but until we as humans had reached the point to influence our own evolution it was very slow.



[edit on 12-2-2008 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Icon_xof
The more intelligent we as humans become, more dangerous we are, the more out-of-sync with and damaging to the Earth we are, and in most cases the more miserable we are. So how the hell can the advancement of the human mind be a good thing?

It's a good thing up to a point. Then it reaches an equilibrium. If you take a look around, you won't see the smartest people breeding the most. Nerds don't get chicks. Also, intelligent people tend to be able to arrange their finances so that they don't need a lot of children to support them in their old age. They also see offspring as a drain on resources and a limit to financial/occupational options, and tend to have fewer kids.

So there's no indication that human beings are any smarter now than they were 10,000 years ago. More educated, perhaps. What you have are more people of average or lower intelligence doing most of the breeding, and when it comes to the biology or the overall species, it's numbers that always win.

Well whether the increase efficiently or ability of our intelligence is based on genetic or environmental influences still means there is an increase.

no thats like saying that using the extra emtpy space in my garage was in increase in volume. its not, im simply using it to its full capacity now.
its a scientific fact that the average human only uses 12% of their brains capacity. we are only using what is already there.

Actually you are wrong here for evolution can be either good or bad, and I didn't make a stance on whether our intelligence is either. One thing is true in that bad changes will lead to that change dying out and good changes pushing the species forward.

wow sounds like you believe natural selection will make a species/race/kind... better, stronger, faster, more intelligent?
to a point, however it will reach a limit.

Why do you think in such short terms...never is a long time. Try thinking 50, 100, 200 years in the future which is like an instant in evolution. It is not my desire for I was just stating it will happen.

perhaps I just didnt make myself clear, they already made this illegal. they cured cancer by doing this and they made it illegal because they considered it cloning. its not going to happen. and if it does then I want to know why they cant use it to cure cancer instead of killing those people with treatments that hardly ever work.

Lol! Ok we are all dead in 100 years so intelligence was a bad evolution move.

So if all of our DNA is corrected and adjusted to remove all abnormalities, and we have genetically engineered spare body parts, and we can re-grow brain cells or continually grow new ones along with any other cell type we cannot live past 120 years? I think you are confused that I’m suggesting any of this will happen in our life time and I’m not.

i hope im dead by then, cuz they are gonna jack everything up. its gonna be resident evil all over again, only real.

I'm not sure your point here. Are you leaning in the direction of the bible theory? I think either way you look at it evolution is speeding up dramatically. Just look at the changes in the last 500 years, but until we as humans had reached the point to influence our own evolution it was very slow.

so basically when you are challenged with "show me" your saying that you cant because now we need something called "time". uhm no.
and yeah the bible theory/creation theory,... .whatever you want to call it is a very valid theory. only problem is its not supported at all in the education system because it has to do with religion. thats the only reason. not because its not a good theory, but because of the religion....

but answer me one question.... I believe it was 1954, im not sure, but it was within the first 5 years of bringing the evolution theory to the US..... soon after they had to dumb down the SAT tests in order to being the average scores up. tell me why that is..... ill get you the dates if you really want them but my point is made right here. why did they have to dumb down the test soon after implementing the evolution theory here in the US?

Originally posted by Methuselah
but answer me one question.... I believe it was 1954, im not sure, but it was within the first 5 years of bringing the evolution theory to the US..... soon after they had to dumb down the SAT tests in order to being the average scores up. tell me why that is..... ill get you the dates if you really want them but my point is made right here. why did they have to dumb down the test soon after implementing the evolution theory here in the US?

I do not understand your point or stance. I do not mind debating you but I just not sure what I'm debating hehe.


Oh BTW your fact that we use just 12% of our brain was and is total BS. We use 100% of our brains.

I do not understand your point or stance. I do not mind debating you but I just not sure what I'm debating hehe.

Oh BTW your fact that we use just 12% of our brain was and is total BS. We use 100% of our brains.

my point and stance is that some of the things are are taught in school and in our homes today have a great influence on the way we live life.
if kids are taught that we are just animals and that in order for the process of natural selection to work we have to weed out inferior... your gonna get things like columbine high school, your gonna get more kids using drugs, your gonna get more kids shooting other kids because they think they are helping the process along.
you will get things like hitler or pol pot trying to kill certain people because they thought that killing them would speed up the process of natural selection. you get people like ted turner trying to reduce the earths population as an excuse to do the same thing. Jacques Cousteau wanted to do the same thing.
the point I made about SAT scores earlier is still valid but the date was wrong, it was year 1963. since then the SAT scores have dropped, in 1995 they lowered the standard to make kids look smarter. that was in a chicago newspaper in 1995.
yeah i had the wrong dates but my point still stands.
if you look at statistics on many things such as (STDs, teenage birthrates, # of abortions, unmarried couples with kids) these things are not good things, and all of these numbers have gone up since this teaching has entered our schools.
here is a quote from biology text book used today "Evolution is a fact, not theory... birds arose from non-birds and humans from non-humans. no person who pretends to and understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she of he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis and revolves around the sun."

funny how they just throw that out there. "its a fact, not a theory" This is in fact no true.

wow sounds like you believe natural selection will make a species/race/kind... better, stronger, faster, more intelligent?
to a point, however it will reach a limit.

btw who governs this process? what governs this? it cant be nature, because the 2nd law of thermodynamics says that it cant.

oh and the whole brain usage thing... I was taught that in school. gee I wonder what else they are wrong about. that was in psychology class too,

Originally posted by Methuselah

I think your stance is more sociological in nature than evolution.

Well first, the evolutionary path of man is not a fact even though evolution is factual. We are evolving and there are many causes for this. Another word that can be used is mutation and as creature mutate they evolve. In nature we have natural selection and genetic drift that causes mutations. If these changes are not beneficial that mutation strain can die out. If it is beneficial then it tends to prosper.

The Hopei Indians are a good example. Today they are mostly very fat people, and the reason for this is their harsh life caused only the very efficient to survive. Today with abundance in everything it is now working against them and makes them fat. Over a period of years they evolved into what they are today.

Much of your post is sociological in nature and if we look back at human history I think it would be easy to say we were worst in the past than today even though we have many problems.

I'm not sure how entropy makes evolution impossible as you suggest,please explain.


[edit on 15-2-2008 by Xtrozero]

The Hopei Indians are a good example. Today they are mostly very fat people, and the reason for this is their harsh life caused only the very efficient to survive. Today with abundance in everything it is now working against them and makes them fat. Over a period of years they evolved into what they are today.

uhm still human beings, and still indian. this doesnt change them into anything different and it doesnt turn anything different into them. this is a direct result of cause and effect. simple stuff.

I think your stance is more sociological in nature than evolution.

actually both. it creates problems in both worlds, in science and society.

Much of your post is sociological in nature and if we look back at human history I think it would be easy to say we were worst in the past than today even though we have many problems.

you remember those days when you didnt have to lock your house? when crime was low? when students would get in trouble for shootin spit balls?

now days you have to lock your house and your car and have security on everthing (sometimes even your kids), students bring guns to school and get in trouble for shooting other students with them.
no I think our troubles are worse these days... because of technology, yes I would say thats part of it. but its also because of what they are teaching.

now to get back on the subject of intelligence and how its de-evolutionary to mankind. i think that it important for man to realize that we are not all that. we often times marvel at ourselves and believe we know it all. we think we can solve any problem, we think we have it all figured out. we think we our processes work because they are our ideas. processes such as: natural selection - 'lets rid the inferior so we can speed up the process' this process doesnt even work the way they wish it did.

what do you get if you breed dogs for millions of years? you get dogs every time. maybe different types of dogs, some different colors or even sizes but you still get a dog.
there is no such thing as a beneficial mutation, and if there is such thing, let me know how it has changed one thing into something else.

now I will agree with you that micro evolution is factual.... it has been observed, tested and demonstrated. its very scientific. but to our knowledge, no other kind of evolution has ever taken place, and teaching this as a fact to your younger generations will turn this country into a generation of fools who will wreck everything, denying all moral standards dragging the meaning of life in the mud.

this evolution phylosophy does not just impact students in the school or their religous lifestyle. it impacts their entire lives. just think, they are taught that they are just an animal and share common heritage with lower organisms.... this is first off a lie and secondly demeaning to humanity.
this changes the world view of many people. if most kids think that the world came from nothing and there really is no purpose to life, they think they can just do whatever they want and there is really no one to stop them and they end up not caring.
now if they believe that there was a creator who created everything and there is a purpose to life, things might be a little different. people might actually care about one another and there might not be as much crime.

dude, just sit back and think about it to yourself. where does each world view bring you to feel about your life? where does it lead the rest of the world?