Permaculture as a Solution to Earth Destruction

Originally posted by idle_rocker
The thing I would NOT want to see this turn into is a communal type society. As an American, I still want to be free to own and till my own land.

If you mean free, as free as society is now, i would disagree to a great measure. See you think you are free but you are not. The western hemisphere is run by 13 rich families. This country you call America, is not as free as you would like to think, it is a dictatorship posing to be a Democracy. Voting does not matter, whatever candidates the N.W.O. has in mind will be the next president. Hillary Clinton and Obama are on their list. Why do you think Lennon and J.F.K. were killed. J.F.K. wanted to abolish the I.R.S. and the federal reserve, which takes hard working peoples money and gives it to rich Politicians and Bankers. Lennon was killed for promoting something as easy as peace. Do you get that. He was killed for spreading to the world that living in peace and harmony can exist. Since he was a man of great power and Influence he was threat to the N.W.O. they are doing what Hitler wanted to do a long time ago, only they took it to another level, they did it behind the peoples backs, and said ti was freedom. Is that the kind of freedom you want. Well i know for Damn sure that's not what i want.

Sorry OP for the off topic rant, i just get pissed off when people say they want the same freedom they have now, when that freedom doesn't exist.

[edit on 9-2-2008 by darcon]

Whatever it is you're saying may be true, but I still have the ability where I am to own my own land, and I do. I may have a mortgage on it, but once that mortgage is paid in full, it's purely mine and all mine.

I understand where you are coming from, You till your land for this long and it is your land, But you have to understand something, People are dying in this world everyday because of the society we are in, I am not saying you can't have your land, because it is your land. But society has to change, that is all i am saying. Sorry if i got mad but it just makes me sad when our world is dying and nobody is doing a thing.

"The thing I would NOT want to see this turn into is a communal type society. As an American, I still want to be free to own and till my own land."

Please don't forget that other people have the right to live communally if they choose, just as you have the right to live independently if you choose. The problem with Capitalism and Communism is that both decries the other as an evil which cannot exist anywhere. Some people work better in tight-knit communities where everything is shared, and some people work best when they are working independently, and they like to see their labors come to fruition on their own. Both of these are fine, they can exist side by side. People seem to have the impression that there can only be one type of society or culture (even as they claim tolerance and multiculturalism). If your neighbors want to be part of a different type of lifestyle as you and you deny them that just because it is not the life you would like to lead, then there is no freedom, only oppression, and that is what we have now.

Let me go into greater detail. If you go out and decide to start farming and living self-sufficiently on a totally unused, uninhabited piece of land in our modern society, you will be doing it illegally unless you purchased the land yourself. But from whom? From someone else who purchased the land from someone else back and back until you get to someone who at one point came to the land and said arbitrarily "this land is mine". So logically the idea of "land ownership" is a delusion, it's just people making baseless claims. The fact is that all land on earth, used or not, is claimed by someone. So it is actually impossible to legally live outside the system. There is no way out, no way to live a different life from the one our system provides. That's not freedom. Nobody has the right to claim land they aren't currently using. Such claims are driven only by greed and nonsense.

Thank you for all the replies. I am glad I've piqued some interest in the matter.

We need to change our ways of life to survive.

I am sure most are well aware of the rising oceans and temperatures. I do not believe global warming or climate change is completely anthropocentric, but we certainly have a hand in the pollution and degradation of our planet.

So what do we do now? Do we sit back and let the world kill itself?

Or do we do something about it and replant trees to curb the carbon in the air?

Well you all know what I'm down for...


More later.

Ya like you said Biggey i am glad you started this thread too. It is just sad that threads like these don't get as much attention as some other threads on ATS that are Worthless, but that is just my opinion. I believe like you said we need to start planting more trees and cut down on pollution. I was glad to see this year that the green bins HAVE ARRIVED!!! Now i live in canada, Two hours outside Toronto. Green bins were issued all over canada but i do not know about the states. The green bins are basically compost except everyone gets issued A green bin, and a small Bucket bin to put in your home, we also get a form that says what to put in it and what not. When the small bucket bin gets full you put it in the green bin. Once a week it gets picked up and goes to a Specific area to Decompose. This has improved the amount of Garbage in the area by a significant amount. My question to you Biggey, is you live in Painted Desert, AZ right? So do you guys have Green bins where you reside, If not go to your town office and start Raising hell. That is how it started down here. With a group of people with petitions and such. Finally the Canadian government hired a company to create the green bin Design and it make it happen.

[edit on 12-2-2008 by darcon]

reply to post by Mesafina
You are absolutely right, Mesafina. That is our choice as a people; to own alone or live communally. As I would prefer owning my own land and tilling it for myself (meaning myself, family and/or friends), I would not want to make anyone else do it if they didn't want to. Everyone must, however contribute in some way to make the program this thread is about work.

I don't believe land ownership can be defined as an illusion just because at one time land was obtained through squatting. Land ownership is one of the systems in America that we strive to obtain to give us a more enjoyable feeling of freedom. Just because noone can ever be truly free from anything and must obey laws for the good of the people, doesn't mean we don't have ANY form of freedom.

I think all countries are starting to make good advances toward conservation now, albeit a bit late. We have a long way to go, but if we choose wisely, our grandchildren and their children will have a better place to live. That is what most of us strive for with everything we do anyway. Hopefully, we will all see a difference for the good in our lifetimes.

Thank you so much for starting this thread, I bought Mollison's book many years ago ...(it was expensive, husband ranted and raved ... book is still around, don't know where the now ex-hubby is). The information in the book is overwhelming unless taken in pieces for short periods of time but is sooo full of excellent instructions and information it was definately worth what it cost. If nothing else it gets a person thinking about alternate and more 'friendly' ways of doing what you'd be doing anyway. It does not insist on a lifestyle change. Actually, until I read this thread, I thought I had put it on the back burner until starting on the retirement property next year. I had never considered urban permaculture as a possibility until checking out your links. Now I find that in the several states I have lived in since reading the book I have left a mini-oasis of permaculture in 5 states, and here I thought was 'greening' each place I've lived! Even if it's nothing more than edible landscaping and natural water collection every little bit helps and it's easy to do.

reply to post by reblazed


Yeah I didn't want to overload the thread with information to start out.

I am still learning myself and will continue learning permaculture throughout my life.

The beauty of it is that its a continually evolving system with nothing really 'set in stone.'

I'm happy to hear others know who Mollison is .

Again, great thread, and I'd like to see it get more support. We need to live in harmony with the land. We destroy and neglect and it still loves back just the same.

Every day, every single day.. when I walk to work, I think about how dirty the air I'm breathing is. And then I go on and think about what a populated city would be like, if the air was like.. the air you'd breathe when out in a forest somewhere. Could you imagine the cool fresh air that reminds you of the wilderness, brushing over city buildings?

I live in toronto and I don't have a green bin, nor do I think I have seen anyone else with one. My parents live 45 minutes outside toronto and I know they have one. It was a good site when I saw that such a thing existed nearby. It needs to be bigger thought, it fills up too fast

If I ever get a house I want to turn it into its own self-sustaining eco-system. Solar panels, a wind generator, a green house, water-catch, ionized water and everything will be hooked up to my elaborate computer system. I will make this happen, unless I come up with a better idea.

reply to post by CavemanDD


plus you know, this would be the house of 1 or 2 people, it wouldnt really be reducing my mark on the planet that much...even though one person does take up a LOT of resources. I see this more as an inspirational thing. Which is why I'm thinking I want to do this in the city. The best way to help people is to make them want to help others as well.

That is crazy that they Don't have Green bins in Toronto, That is just silly if you ask me. i Live in a small town, Jackson's point, Probably never heard of it. Live Right by the beach. When i mean live by the beach, i mean i can walk down to the end of the street and there is lake Simcoe. It gets worse every year with the pollution, lived up here for about 8 years and every year the lake gets more dirtier and more Bacteria signs come up in the summer. Which sucks because that is all there is to do around here is swim. I think you can try a petition there for the green bins, but like you said Large cities need Large Petitions. New Market is about an hour away, it gets bigger and more like Toronto every day. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes part of the GTA within a couple years. One thing i have to say though one of the cleanest places in canada, and i am going to go out on a limb, and say probably one of the cleanest places in the worlds is B.C. Man when i took a trip up there from Pearson Airport, which is the biggest airport in Toronto, and landed in Vancouver, then took a connecting flight to Prince George in B.C., which by the way is like the airport there is like the size of a coffee Shop. When i got outside and Breathed in that air, I swear to god i almost got High And not because of it being dirty, but because it was so clean. Also the jet lag didn't help and we were at a high altitude, but man was the air there clean. I learned something coming back in the greyhound though. All of canada Smokes weed. Even the bloody bus driver. 3 Day ride in that thing and i was so sick of friggin bus, i was so happy to be back. But the air smelt like sh!t. B.C. is one clean place i tell you.

In the spirit of permaculture, I hope anyone with an interest in the great importense of natural forests, foods and riwers, would spend an evening watching collum coats video lecture on Viktor Schauberger.

In this lecture, he describes many important factors of nature witch are co-responsible for the climate state we are in today.

He also gives alot of needed knowledge about forests, riwers, agriculture, science and many other issues.

Unfortunatly the soundquality suffers a bit, but the information given is priceless. Please take your time to watch this beautifull lecture of nature for your own benefit, I promise you will not regret it!

video.google.com
2 hr 51 min - Jan 24, 1995

-- We must understand and copy nature --

They do have green bins in toronto. I saw like 10 of them on my walk home I was like what the hell? Wheres mine!? I don't really need one at this point as I am a human garbage disposal . I only buy food I know I'm going to eat, and when I eat it, I eat it all.

hahaaha that is awesome, at least we know some people are using the green bins in Toronto. Like you said you rarely make garbage so there really isn't a need for one. But if you do want one, you can probably go to you City office(i don't know where it would be), and raise hell. You get one free so no need to pay.

I haven't forgot about this thread, but its a bit too deep of a subject to post all the information at once.

I have an entire class worth of notes that I'll post, in due time.

I'll be back tomorrow.

[edit on 2/18/2008 by biggie smalls]

Great post Biggie. Permaculture is a brilliant concept, do a little planning, a little gardening, and soon all of your food needs will be met almost automatically. That is freedom. Civilization is a cancer, cities destroy their land base and destroy remote communities in order to expand and survive.

Have you read any Derick Jensen?

reply to post by biggie smalls


$250 permaculture course in Arizona

$250 permaculture course in california

$800 in new mexico

$120 in texas

$600-$700 in washington state

there are courses you can take for well over $1000 but it is unfair to generalize that ALL classes cost this much. Biggie I know you mean well but please don't turn the kiddies off by making it sound out of the average joe or jane's reach.

[edit on 18-2-2008 by Animal]

reply to post by Animal


I just changed it.

Permaculture can be learnt for free. Go to your local farmer and ask him if you can lease a small chunk of land for a season or two (1/8 or less should be fine to start).

I am actually in the process of moving to a few acre plot and although I can't do a whole lot because its desert, I'll have some aspects of permaculture.

Animal, you'll be pleased to hear its a passive solar home with a solar hot water heater .

EDIT: The house is wired for solar (has all the electrical work done for it) but the solar panels aren't installed yet. I was mistaken.


wingman77,

I have not read his work. If you are into this sort of thing, I'd pick up a Bill Mollison or David Holmgren book. They're the founders and know much more than I do.

[edit on 2/18/2008 by biggie smalls]

I had a friend that had the type of natural toilet mentioned in the Op, and it was pretty cool, no smell and you felt good about what you were doing with your waste.