Forbidden Egyptology

Howdy AATS

The correlation to Orion is not accurate and has been debated to death and it comes up lacking.

There were no Egyptians nor any Egyptian culture at the age you suggest. The pyramids are the apex of a long line of building tombs before and after them. They are not a one time event, they fit into a complete picture and context.

I would recommend that read about the workers village, the village of the guys who were actually building the pyramids.

RC dates them to the period the Egyptian themselves seem to think they were built-as do other indications - indications of an earlier age, none.

Could the Sphinx be older, possibly

"Dig under the pyramids", into limestone? I think you mean look for more passages. That is always possible.

Follow the money

More leads for researchers into "Forbidden Egyptology".


Illicit Antiquities Research


Hawass on illegal digs

"There is currently a case of a mask in the St. Louis Museum of Art, which was stolen from the storage magazine at Saqqara [just south of Cairo] after 1959," Hawass said

Back in Egypt, illegal digs are a continuing problem for Hawass in a land with many valuable artifacts and many poor citizens.

But despite the agency's best efforts, illegal artifacts regularly end up on the international auction block.

According to Hawass, Dieter Arnold, an Egyptologist with the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, recently alerted him about an alabaster vessel in the shape of a duck in the Christie's catalog.

Originally posted by Hanslune
I would recommend that read about the workers village, the village of the guys who were actually building the pyramids.

Hi Hanslune.
To reed that is indeed very interesting and that this workers village really exist is also very clear, but you have no proof whatsoever that those workers where indeed the actual builders of ALL the pyramids and especially the Great pyramid.

Howdy Spacevisitor

The village is located near the pyramids and has the facilities to support people at work. At that time period except for the very rich and royal who might have a chariot or man carried chair everybody walked. So what is within walking distance?

There are two village found so far, one for craftmen the other for manual laborers

The link

"The workmen at Giza who were accommodated in the dormitories, sleeping close together, numbered as many as 2,000 and they ate in a pillared hall the remains of which were found by Mark Lehner to the east of the galleries.

To the north of the workmen's camp is an artisan village where the technicians were housed with their families. The discovery of this village at Giza shows that each artisan, draftsman, craftsman or sculptor lived in a house that consisted of one room in which to store his material and a court to do his work in daylight. Attached to this area were sleeping quarters, a reception area and cooking quarters. They also had storage rooms for grain and other supplies.

The link

So Spacevisitor what were those specialist village doing next to the pyramids? Oh and they date to the time of the Giza pyramids too.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Howdy Spacevisitor

The village is located near the pyramids and has the facilities to support people at work. At that time period except for the very rich and royal who might have a chariot or man carried chair everybody walked. So what is within walking distance?

There are two village found so far, one for craftmen the other for manual laborers

The link

"The workmen at Giza who were accommodated in the dormitories, sleeping close together, numbered as many as 2,000 and they ate in a pillared hall the remains of which were found by Mark Lehner to the east of the galleries.

To the north of the workmen's camp is an artisan village where the technicians were housed with their families. The discovery of this village at Giza shows that each artisan, draftsman, craftsman or sculptor lived in a house that consisted of one room in which to store his material and a court to do his work in daylight. Attached to this area were sleeping quarters, a reception area and cooking quarters. They also had storage rooms for grain and other supplies.

The link

So Spacevisitor what were those specialist village doing next to the pyramids? Oh and they date to the time of the Giza pyramids too.

Hi Hanslune, long time no see, how are you today, I hope alright.

I don’t know what they where doing there next to the pyramids, they could be worked on so many other things besides the pyramids.
And as Mark Lehner says himself in your linked article,

“Every discovery in the area is an important piece to a puzzle with no written key. "On the site we really have no texts," Lehner says, "so we interpret from what we find on the ground."

So they are only interpreting or guessing without facts about the real meaning of what those workers did next to the pyramids.
But that still doesn’t mean that even if that workmen’s village is located next to the pyramids and that it date to the time of the Giza pyramids the workers who lived there also build the pyramids, in my opinion.
But it is free to interpreted that they did.

Titles such as" overseer of the side of the pyramid,"" director of the draftsmen," "overseer of masonry," "director of workers," and "inspector of the craftsmen" are another indication that those buried in the upper part of the cemetery were of higher status than the people buried below. Perhaps the most important title we found was the "director for the king's work." I believe some of these are the tombs of the artisans who designed and decorated the Giza pyramid complexes and the administrators who oversaw their construction. We need, however, to analyze the names, pottery, and decoration of the tombs further to be sure they date to the time when the Giza pyramids were being built.

The link

BBC link

At Giza the workforce was divided into crews of approximately 2,000 and then sub-divided into named gangs of 1,000: graffiti show that the builders of the third Giza pyramid named themselves the 'Friends of Menkaure' and the 'Drunkards of Menkaure'. These gangs were divided into phyles of roughly 200. Finally the phyles were split into divisions of maybe 20 workers, who were allocated their own specific task and their own project leader.

if these people built the pyramids, then why did they live around them when they were done? Being slaves, one would wonder what sort of status would be granted to have them buried so near such a sacred spot.

the graves just do not seem contemporary, logically.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
if these people built the pyramids, then why did they live around them when they were done?

They didn't. As far as we can tell, they only lived there for the 80 or so years it took to build the three pyramids.

Being slaves, one would wonder what sort of status would be granted to have them buried so near such a sacred spot.

the graves just do not seem contemporary, logically.

Slaves?

None of them were slaves.

They were fairly high status craftsmen, supervisors, and priests as well as local families who came for the work and free food during the annual flood. They were usually well treated (the one exception seems to be Ahkenaton (the ruler who proclaimed monotheism) -- the village of the workers at Armana seems to be full of people with broken bones and the sign of a very poor diet. Lots of deaths at a fairly early age (20's or so)).

And as to burial place, it'd be better status for a family to have a relative buried "in the graveyard right next to the god-kings" where the priests offered all the proper sacrifices than in a little cemetary in the desert where (no kidding) the jackals roamed.

Many of the big breakthrough discoveries in Egyptology were not made by Egyptologists

Only a few examples:

Giovanni Belzoni discovered KV17, the longest tomb

Bernardino Drovetti discovered the first Papyrus

Ahmed Abd el-Rassul discovered the Royal Caches at Deir el-Bahri

The Tell el-Amarna tablets were discovered by some local egyptian woman

Archaeologist Howard Carter and non-egyptologist Lord Carnavon discovered the tomb of Tutankhamun

(not to mention newer discoveries such as those of a geologist on the Sphinx )



Conclusion: When Egyptologists say that none other than Egyptologists are equipped and prepared to understand or judge Egyptology, they are obviously mistaken.

Well Sky you've shown your great ability to think outside the box unfortunately it appears to be fast food box with some cheese stuck on it.

Conclusion: When Egyptologists say that none other than Egyptologists are equipped and prepared to understand or judge Egyptology, they are obviously mistaken.

What they mean is unless you have the underlying knowledge of the culture, taking bits and pieces at random, or cherry picking data, will not give you a correct result.

Question Sky when did Egyptology become officially established?

Well lets look at these great people you have outlined:

Giovanni Belzoni discovered KV17, the longest tomb

Hans: he is considered to have been an Egyptologist and is on the list of greatest Egyptologists (1778-1823). Egyptology has no precise “start” anyone who was interested in ancient Egypt was considered one, anyone who analyze and wrote down information could be considered one. So in this case you've just picked on a person already considered to be an Egyptologists.

Bernardino Drovetti discovered the first Papyrus

Hans: He isn’t considered an Egyptologist but more of a looter he did great harm to knowledge but on the other hand help to create the institutions that later became Egyptology and he did make a great deal of money. The first papyrus was actually discovered around 3300 BC. Other Papyrus were in Roman and Greek hands well before Drovetti.

Ahmed Abd el-Rassul discovered the Royal Caches at Deir el-Bahri

Hans: He was just a looter he had no idea of what he had found, he was interested only in selling the stuff. Much stuff in archaeology is found by locals - its rather common. When going to a new place a good archaeologist will look for the local "expert".

The Tell el-Amarna tablets were discovered by some local egyptian woman

Hans: Cannot really comment on it except that you left out pretty much every conqueror of Egypt who looted stuff.

Archaeologist Howard Carter and non-egyptologist Lord Carnavon discovered the tomb of Tutankhamun

Hans: Carnavon was just the money man the other guy was the Archaeologist/Egyptologist

In whole I don't get your point, you seem to be misunderstanding the difference between finding something and the ability to understanding and communicate that - it would seem you have too little of a box and bit to much cheese.




)

Originally posted by Hanslune

Egyptology has no precise “start” anyone who was interested in ancient Egypt was considered one, anyone who analyze and wrote down information could be considered one.

Oh thats news to me. I thought Egyptologist was a title awarded to those who had studied Egyptology, otherwise they were seen as amateur-egyptologists.

I'm unaware of a formal start to Egyptology. The first degrees with that name probably came out of German, French or British Universities in the late 19th century, or perhaps the very early 20th.

I've actually searched in the past for the first person to be awarded a Ph.d in Archaeology but have never found that info.

There is no monolithic Egyptological structure. Lots of people who work on the materials are not Egyptologists at all but specialists in various areas.

Hawass is cracked and a puppet if i ever saw one the PTB have been covering up the truth about egyptian history for years i didnt feel like reading all of this huge thread but its hard to dispute the findings of reputable scientist like robert schoch who has been banned from giza for his contreversial dating of the sphinx

Originally posted by constantwonder
Hawass is cracked and a puppet if i ever saw one the PTB have been covering up the truth about egyptian history for years i didnt feel like reading all of this huge thread but its hard to dispute the findings of reputable scientist like robert schoch who has been banned from giza for his contreversial dating of the sphinx

It's certainly not hard to dispute an ignorant poster that comes on here making untrue claims that he has obviously not checked into.

Robert Schoch is not now, and has never been, "banned" from Giza.

Myself, I'm empathic enough to be embarrassed for you.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by constantwonder
Hawass is cracked and a puppet if i ever saw one the PTB have been covering up the truth about egyptian history for years i didnt feel like reading all of this huge thread but its hard to dispute the findings of reputable scientist like robert schoch who has been banned from giza for his contreversial dating of the sphinx

It's certainly not hard to dispute an ignorant poster that comes on here making untrue claims that he has obviously not checked into.

Robert Schoch is not now, and has never been, "banned" from Giza.

Myself, I'm empathic enough to be embarrassed for you.

Harte

ignorant right gotcha but its FACT that Gatenbrink West and Schoch may be allowed at giza but Hawass will not let them do any research (which is exactly what i meant) at the sphinx or the pyramids thanks for calling me ignorant really i appreciate it... people like you make me

[edit on 9-9-2008 by constantwonder]

[edit on 9-9-2008 by constantwonder]

reply to post by Harte


Okay, Dimminutive-For-Richard Head,

Here's a list of folks that Hawass has banned:

British archaeologist Joann Fletcher: LINK

Dietrich Wildung, an eminent scholar who runs the Egyptian Museum in Berlin: LINK

John Anthony West: LINK

Graham Hancock and Robert Bauval: for not denouncing J.A. West

And for a short period ALL GERMANS: He didn't like what they call art

Harte- Myself, I'm empathic enough to be embarrassed for you.

And me? I'm empathetic for all those of us -- and I'm going to out on a limb here and say I speak for the vast majority -- who have to endure your pretentious, insufferable, insulting, snide comments.

The poster you so handily insulted signed up a few moths ago and has managed to glean over 7k points, so if you can;t manage a little respect, how about a little courtesy.

edit: for typo

[edit on 9-9-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

An Invocation of Sekhmet

"The Powerful, powerful in her existence, She that impurity fears. The one who's face is beautiful, remarkable of image, who thrusts back sadness. The solar feminine disc, radiant, rejuvenating, illuminating the country. The Mistress of the sky, appearing in her sanctuary. Sekhmet, powerful against the enemies, inspiring terror in the rebels. The Mistress of Iunet, entering into her chapel, whirling and dancing in her temple."

(translated into English by Kerry Wisner, 1999-2000, from the French text "Dendera - I Traduction" by S. Cauville)

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
reply to post by Harte

 

Okay, Dimminutive-For-Richard Head,

Here's a list of folks that Hawass has banned:

British archaeologist Joann Fletcher: LINK

For not following protocol.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
Dietrich Wildung, an eminent scholar who runs the Egyptian Museum in Berlin: LINK

For conspiring to steal ancient artifacts (care to defend this?)

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt John Anthony West: LINK

Not West. Ironic that you make this claim, considering West (and Bauval) actually live in Egypt. "Banned?" I think not.

The link claims Gatenbrink was banned, but in fact he was not. He lost his backing from the German museum he was working for and thus had no status to do work in Egypt - according to Egyptian law.

The information regarding this has been posted here at ATS recently.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
Graham Hancock and Robert Bauval: for not denouncing J.A. West

I see nothing in there about either being banned. But it is a fact that neither can, by law, be granted a permit to investigate antiquities in Egypt, unless they can convince the Supreme Council on Antiquities that they (for some reason) deserve a waiver of the criteria.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
And for a short period ALL GERMANS: He didn't like what they call art

You reference an article about Hawass wanting the bust of Nefertiti back from the Germans as evidence he "banned all Germans?"
Please. The Germans absolutely stole this artifact. They (in the article) are refusing to even temporarily return it to Egypt for display at a new museum there, and you're painting Hawass as the bad guy in this dispute? The man is merely doing his job.

Who can blame Hawass if he refused (and he hasn't) to allow teams from other countries that are currently illegally holding Egyptian antiquities to conduct further research in Egypt?

I wonder what you would think had the Germans stolen the Declaration of Independance or the original Magna Carta?

Would animosity toward them be construed as some sort of conspiracy?

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt

Harte- Myself, I'm empathic enough to be embarrassed for you.

And me? I'm empathetic for all those of us -- and I'm going to out on a limb here and say I speak for the vast majority -- who have to endure your pretentious, insufferable, insulting, snide comments.

The poster you so handily insulted signed up a few moths ago and has managed to glean over 7k points, so if you can;t manage a little respect, how about a little courtesy.

Points? Who cares? Points from a mod that believes all this happy crappy? The word "meaningless" overstates the value of these points you hold so dearly.

Take note of the ATS logo at the top of the page. Can you read what it says under it? Are you and others here "insulted" by that?

The post I referred to was filled with pure ignorance. I am fighting that.

You don't like it? Why should I care? You are merely showing your own ignorance in standing up for a post that was completely and utterly ignorant in it's content.

Of course, the supposed "evidence" you submit for Hawass "banning" a bunch of people from (I suppose you mean from conducting digs) Giza or Egypt or whatever (you weren't clear in exactly what they were "banned" from - conveniently unclear, I'd say) betrays either a large dose of ignorance on your own part, or some agenda you are trying to put forward by making false, or misleading, claims.

Harte

Harte -

Re: British archaeologist Joann Fletcher 'not following protocol'.

Jane Brink did not follow the protocol in that she annouced her find and did not tell Hawass personally that she was going to do it – as he is head of the SCA panel of a 100 who made the edict -- One imagines that this is because of his tendancy to take over the projects and take the credit for discoveries in Giza. (There is a pattern here as this is Hawass' excuse for most of the banned explorers we are disucussing.)

Dietrich Wildung, an eminent scholar who runs the Egyptian Museum in Berlin:

Harte: For conspiring to steal ancient artifacts (care to defend this?)

Yeah, actually I do. Here ya go:

guardians.net...
"The ... authorities have incontrovertible evidence that he was involved in the illegal trafficking and buying of antiquities," Hawass wrote in his column for the English edition of the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram. But when asked why Egypt, two years later, still hasn't moved to indict Wildung -- as Italian authorities recently did in bringing a case against Marion True, the J. Paul Getty Museum's curator of antiquities -- Hawass acknowledges that the tapes are hearsay that can't prove a case.

Wildung, once friendly with Hawass, is now banned from excavating in Egypt but denies any wrongdoing. He says Hawass is playing to Egyptian public opinion and perhaps retaliating because Wildung criticized him for empty showmanship on a 2001 TV special that put a robot into a pyramid. "For populistic reasons, he has unfortunately invented these stories, which are 500% against my personal conviction and my understanding as a museum professional," Wildung says from his Munich home.

So Hawass acknowledges there is no proof, it is hearsay . The Defense rests, moving on.

Harte - Not West. Ironic that you make this claim, considering West (and Bauval) actually live in Egypt. "Banned?" I think not.

Well, you think wrong and you know it. They may live there, but they are certainly not being granted permits to work in Giza. It is officially known and accounted in multiple news sources that West and Schoch were forcibly ejected from Giza in 1993 after the ‘water eroded the sphinx’ discoveries, and West (or Schoch) has never been granted a permit again from Hawass despite repeated request.

Harte - The link claims Gatenbrink was banned, but in fact he was not. He lost his backing from the German museum he was working for and thus had no status to do work in Egypt - according to Egyptian law.

First of all he was working for the "The German Archaeological Institute", who got the permits, allowed him to investigate, he made various discoveries, recorded them, told GAI and Hawass and waited for 22 days for an annoucement that was not forthcoming. He then, to my mind rightfully, got paranoid and left Egypt with the footage.

The whole episode devolved into a various and nefarious seeming scandal:

The official reason given by the Egyptian Antiquities Authorities (known as the Supreme Council of Antiquities - SCA - ) was that Gantenbrink leaded the news of the discovery to the British Press in April 1993 and thus, apparently, broke a 'rule' of archaeology. The director of the German Archaeological Institute in Cairo, Dr. Rainer Stadelmann, sided with the Egyptians and condemned Gantenbrink for his press action. Dr. Stadelmann was adamant about the non-importance of the find. "This is not a door; there is nothing behind it." The President of the Supreme Council for Antiquities, Dr. Muhamad Bakr, went as far as claiming a 'hoax'. "The orifice of the shaft is too small for the robot to go through" and accused the "German scientist" of not having the correct 'approvals' from the SCA to carry out the exploration.

Dr. Bakr fired the Chief Inspector of the Giza Pyramid Plateau, Dr. Zahi Hawass, although the official reason given was that a valuable ancient 'statue' under the custody of Hawass was stolen from Giza. Three months later, in June 1993, Dr. Bakr himself was fired and replaced by Dr. Nur El Din. Amid accusations of malpractice and fraud, Dr. Bakr spoke of a "Mafia" which had been involved with the Pyramids for the "last twenty years" . Refusing to give names, Dr. Bakr said, "I wanted the whole matter investigated by the prosecution authorities, but my request was refused."

Meanwhile, Dr. Hawass, who went to the USA, claimed that the discovery of the 'door' was "THE discovery in Egypt," and speculated that there are important artifacts behind it. In early 1994, Dr. Hawass was reinstalled at his post at the Giza Pyramids. Meanwhile, Gantenbrink offered his robot to the Egyptians and also offered to train an Egyptian technician to man the equipment and open the door. The Egyptians rejected the offer; "We are very busy at the moment," replied Dr. Nur El Din. About the same time, Dr. Hawass was to declare that "I do not think this is a 'door' and there is nothing behind it."

In March 1996 however, Dr. Hawass changed his mind once again and declared Gantenbrink's find as being one of huge interest ....

and it goes on and on

I see nothing in there about either being banned. But it is a fact that neither can, by law, be granted a permit to investigate antiquities in Egypt, unless they can convince the Supreme Council on Antiquities that they (for some reason) deserve a waiver of the criteria.

Lame, strawman argument as they will NEVER convice the SCA to grant permits as HAWASS HEADS it. Moving on.

As the the GERMANS, Hawass let them resume exploration after they agreed to halt the art project. So his will was bowed to.

Moving on... to a second post as I am running out of space and I'm not done with you yet.


edit: for typos


[edit on 10-9-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]



[edit on 12-9-2008 by Jbird]

HARTE-
Points? Who cares? Points from a mod that believes all this happy crappy? The word "meaningless" overstates the value of these points you hold so dearly.

Points indicate how much of a contribution, and in the rare instances of Mods applauding a post, the quality of the post. So yes, they are dear in that respect, if you respect the medium.

Take note of the ATS logo at the top of the page. Can you read what it says under it? Are you and others here "insulted" by that?
The post I referred to was filled with pure ignorance. I am fighting that.

You don't like it? Why should I care? You are merely showing your own ignorance in standing up for a post that was completely and utterly ignorant in it's content.

And here you take the opportunity to once again display your nasty dispostion.

Harte, I dislike being personal but seeing how comfortable you are with it in regards to others... allow me to say I sincerely hope you don't conduct yourself in real-life the way you do on these boards because if so, you must be living a friendless, lonely life with a bunch of co-workers and family that, best-case-scenario, just profoundly resent the-hell-out-of you.

Harte - Of course, the supposed "evidence" you submit for Hawass "banning" a bunch of people from (I suppose you mean from conducting digs) Giza or Egypt or whatever (you weren't clear in exactly what they were "banned" from - conveniently unclear, I'd say) betrays either a large dose of ignorance on your own part, or some agenda you are trying to put forward by making false, or misleading, claims.

And you and your cohorts using the 'you didn't say the exact definition of your language' to dance around a point when you are losing ground -- and the old-standby of unless you are specifically making false and misleading statements' to try to cast yourselves in the 'light of right' when you have failed to make a point is not going to work with me.

It is also my hope that it will stop working for those who are cowed by your 'know-it-all-stop-the-dialogue-at-all-costs-in-order-to-be-right' bullying tactics that not only dominate this forum, but usually grind threads to a halt.

So, until we can all learn how to get along, respectfully share differing opinions and learn from each other as we debate alternative topics and ideas... I will keep living to fight another day...

And you?

Why you can pucker up and kiss it!
TWISI


edit: to be nicer and less of a hole of the posterior (... it's the best I could do under the circumstances).
[edit on 11-9-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

[edit on 11-9-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]