Boeing spokesperson laughs at the idea of a Boeing 767 going at 500 MPH at 700 feet

reply to post by NIcon


Tom Brokaw interviewed some of the controllers on September 11, 2002 and they said the same thing. The pilot of flight 11 keyed the MIC on several occasions.

I have a theory that the hijacker pilots flew the aircraft from the right seat. Barbara Olson asked her husband what she should tell the pilot during one of her phone conversations with him. Also, a US Senator commented about how Chick Burlingame was obviously murdered due to the wounds on his body. I don't think Barbara Olson would have asked what she should tell the pilot if you was already murdered.

Google Sandy Dahl. She is the wife of Jason Dahl, the captain of Flight 93. Particularly, read what she says post Zacharias Moussaoui trial after her confidentiality agreement expired. She believes that her husband was alive until impact. She was a flight attendant and she said that she could recognize this sounds in the cockpit to determine that her husband never left the Captain's seat.

I thought about this after John Lear asked why flight 77 would have made a right hand turn before crashing into the Pentagon. The point of his question was that the pilot wouldn't be able to see out of the right side window and most likely would not have made that turn. Maybe it was a common tactic that all the hijackers had practiced before the hijackings.

reply to post by Boone 870

Boone 870, I've heard about the wife's claim she heard her husband on that tape, but I haven't looked into 93 too much as I'm still trying to figure out 11. What I've seen about 93 is the 911 Commission says that the captain and first officer might have been killed. But I think they are wrong on that, because not only what you pointed out, but also the transcript they released of the voice recorder. Here's the part I'm talking about:

09:44:18 This does not work now.

09:45:13 Turn it off.

09:45:16 ... Seven thousand ...

09:45:19 How about we let them in? We let the guys in now.

09:45:23 Okay.

09:45:24 Should we let the guys in?

09:45:25 Inform them, and tell him to talk to the pilot. Bring the pilot back.

(taken from 911research.wtc7.net...)

Sounds to me like the hijackers were having trouble with and/or broke something and were going to bring the pilot back to straighten out whatever they messed up. Just before this they were talking about a "green knob." Anybody know what a "green knob" in a cockpit would do and how it would mess up? (It might not have anything to do with what I quoted as it was four minutes previous to the quote.)

I'm still not on topic.....

reply to post by Boone 870


Boone, you bring up a lot of ideas, and thoughts.

You and I both know, at least I think you know, that any modern airplane can be flown from either seat, Left or Right.

Might you also not agree that, when a pilot undergoes initial training...maybe that is not the term I shold use here...

A STUDENT PILOT will begin lessons in the left seat, can we agree?

As this imagined PILOT progresses, he will stay in the left seat....after obtaining the Private Pilot license, he will begin to log 'PIC' time. This to validate his application for the Commercial license, which requres, as a minimum, 250 hours total time...not sure how much has to e PIC...maybe 200? (that is a guess, from memory...it can be looked up).

A pilot, even with a Commercial Rating, will not get to be comfortable in the Right seat, unless he has taken Instruction in to being...well, an Instructor!!

When I had to learn to fly from the right seat, it took some time to adapt...I mean, my left hand was used to the control wheel, and my right to the throttle...now, I had to switch....right hand on elevator and ailerons, left on throttle....

After thousands of hours of experience, in both seats, it is dead easy for me.......

Anybody know what a "green knob" in a cockpit would do and how it would mess up? (It might not have anything to do with what I quoted as it was four minutes previous to the quote.)

I don't think the 767 has a green knob.... anywhere in the cockpit.

Here you go...cockpit shots of a 767-200:

www.airliners.net

This pic shows a green button above the pilot's head. Not exactly a "knob", but that might be a language issue.

www.airliners.net...




[Mod Edit - Fix link]

[edit on 15/2/2008 by Sauron]

reply to post by Valhall


Val...that green button is on the Cockpit Voice Recorder panel....it is the 'test' button....we use it to test the CVR in the preflight...you press and hold for at least four seconds, and watch the needle in that round thing next to it pulse at least four times...it tests the four channels of the CVR. We are also supposed to plug in our headsets to the jack in the panel, and listen for sound, to verify the CAM (cockpit area microphone) is working...there is a usual second or two delay from the sound you make, until the sound comes through your headset...finally, you can see the red button there too...that is the 'ERASE' button. We are told that, when the Parking Brake is set, you can press and hold the ERASE button and the CVR will erase...but, anyway, it is a continuous loop, always on as long as it has power, records about 30 minutes....

Now...does everyone believe me yet?

just added text....

[edit on 15-2-2008 by weedwhacker]

reviewed spelling mistakes...

[edit on 15-2-2008 by weedwhacker]

Okay, against my better judgment I started looking into flight 93 more. The 911 Commission report says the transponder was turned off at 9:41. In the transcript the "green knob" is mentioned at 09:40:52, so whatever it is most likely had to do with the transponder. Also, the part I quoted which was three minutes later may be them still messing with the transponder, can't say for sure. But I still believe the pilots were alive from what was recorded at 09:45:25.

reply to post by NIcon


Sorry, NIcon...I have no idea what a 'green knob' is...

When you reference sources, please help us understand.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
but, anyway, it is a continuous loop, always on as long as it has power, records about 30 minutes....

It's just a continous 30 min loop that copies over anything older than 30 mins, and because of this they can actually go back much longer than 30 mins with todays equipment.

We have a joke to just blurt out something like "I am totally against what you want to do and I will not be a part of it" or something along those lines. When your crew look at you all weird you just state "oh, I was just putting a disclaimer on the CVR"

We are also required to open the CVR CB in the case of an accident.

reply to post by weedwhacker

The reference was in my previous post just four posts before.... I assume everyone reads these things as a continuous narrative.... anyway, here it is again... 911research.wtc7.net...

Originally posted by weedwhacker
After thousands of hours of experience, in both seats, it is dead easy for me.......

The Air Force right now is training all students in both seats. In the past all training was in the right seat only and when you were ready to be come an AC you move to the left seat.

One more thing to add,

Please do not confuse a real transcript from a fake one

What I mean is, a 'transcript' can be posted, here on ATS...and it could be fake....

A proper 'transcript', from a proper source, will be from a verifible sourece


spelling, again..the word, 'source'...

[edit on 15-2-2008 by weedwhacker]

I wanted to edit again, since I think I made typos...But I think the homonyms work....

[edit on 15-2-2008 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by NIcon
Okay, against my better judgment I started looking into flight 93 more. The 911 Commission report says the transponder was turned off at 9:41. In the transcript the "green knob" is mentioned at 09:40:52, so whatever it is most likely had to do with the transponder. Also, the part I quoted which was three minutes later may be them still messing with the transponder, can't say for sure. But I still believe the pilots were alive from what was recorded at 09:45:25.

Transponder has a black knob with the different transponder settings of Off, Stby, Norm, TA, TA/RA, and Emer. There are some green lights on that are to test the difference modes but one green light flashes when you are being interrogated.

They might have been talking about the Green interrogation light. With this flashing ground control knows everything about you.

reply to post by weedwhacker

Okay, here's from the evidence from the Moussaoui trial on the governments own website:

www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

It's a direct link to the pdf.

reply to post by Xtrozero

That sounds very likely because the ground was trying to contact them right before this. "Knob" may be just a bad translation from Arabic.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Thing is...a message sent, that reads 'SECURE THE COCKPIT' would be looked at, and, given that it was so unusual, the two pilots would have spent at least a few seconds wondering 'what the [heck] does THIS mean?

So you are saying that professional pilots would not know what "secure cockpit door" message would mean. ARE YOU FOR REAL ?

Also the9/11 commission reports states about the hijackers being outside the cockpit and moving the passengers to the back of the plane.

Reports from two flight attendants in the coach cabin, Betty Ong and Madeline “Amy” Sweeney, tell us most of what we know about how the hijacking happened. As it began, some of the hijackers—most likely Wail al Shehri and Waleed al Shehri,who were seated in row 2 in first class—stabbed the two unarmed flight attendants who would have been preparing for cabin service.25

We do not know exactly how the hijackers gained access to the cockpit;
FAA rules required that the doors remain closed and locked during flight. Ong speculated that they had “jammed their way” in. Perhaps the terrorists stabbed the flight attendants to get a cockpit key,to force one of them to open the cockpit door, or to lure the captain or first officer out of the cockpit. Or the flight attendants may just have been in their way.26

At the same time or shortly thereafter, Atta—the only terrorist on board
trained to fly a jet—would have moved to the cockpit from his business-class seat,possibly accompanied by Omari. As this was happening,passenger Daniel Lewin, who was seated in the row just behind Atta and Omari, was stabbed by one of the hijackers—probably Satam al Suqami, who was seated directly behind Lewin. Lewin had served four years as an officer in the Israeli military. He may have made an attempt to stop the hijackers in front of him, not realizing that another was sitting behind him.27

The hijackers quickly gained control and sprayed Mace, pepper spray, or
some other irritant in the first-class cabin, in order to force the passengers and flight attendants toward the rear of the plane.They claimed they had a bomb.28

So please explain where you got the idea that all the hijakers were in the cockpit ?


[edit on 15-2-2008 by ULTIMA1]

And how long do you think it would take pilots, who had flown for YEARS without a SINGLE cockpit intrusion happening to get over the shock of having a "secure the cockpit" message going on. Besides which, as I've posted repeatedly (and gone around and around in circles with you, since in your world getting a secure the cockpit message means they immediately jumped up and locked the door, and one had the fire axe ready to defend the cockpit), they had replied with a message asking to verify this message. Sometime between when they sent that message and the verification message the hijackers hit them.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
And how long do you think it would take pilots, who had flown for YEARS without a SINGLE cockpit intrusion happening to get over the shock of having a "secure the cockpit" message going on.

So your saying pilots are not professional enough to know what a "secure cockpit door" message means and would not do anything about it?

But it does mean they had a warning, so how did the hijakers surprise them? I mean they had to surprise them since they did not get a call or signal off.

If you do the same job for years, and absolutely nothing happens, and it becomes routine, and suddenly something like this happens, your first reaction is NOT going to be "Oh my god we have to secure the cockpit right away before they get us!" It's going to be "What the heck are you talking about? What's going on?" At least for us mere mortals anyway. Maybe not for you it won't be. Sure they know what it means, but their first reaction is going to be to ask for clarification just like Flight 93 did. And as for surprise evey NORMAL person, even after receiving the first warning is going to think "That can't happen to me."

Originally posted by Zaphod58
If you do the same job for years, and absolutely nothing happens, and it becomes routine, and suddenly something like this happens, your first reaction is NOT going to be "Oh my god we have to secure the cockpit right away before they get us!" It's going to be "What the heck are you talking about? What's going on?"

But tell me (becasue we both know) pilots are trained to expect the unexpected during training for emergencies. So the "secure cockpit door" message is not going to cause them to freak out like you are suggesting.

Please at least be man enough to admit the pilots had the warning and should not have been taken by surprise, or you loose what little respect i had for you.

Also the fact of having been a federal police officer i know about doing a job for along time and something comes along unexpected but thats when all the training comes into play.


[edit on 15-2-2008 by ULTIMA1]