"Let Them Eat Cake!"

reply to post by Beachcoma


An excellent find, right along the lines of much reading I have done on the subject. I thank you for your contribution!

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by jfj123

 

It depends on the size of the water heater, mineral deposits inside the heater, the temps. the heater is set to, etc. For a 40 gal tank that is well used, the cost is approx. $1.15 per day for all hot water use. Also, you don't need to use hot water to clean your dishes-I never do.

Not using hot water to clean your dishes is dangerous.

I haven't used hot water to clean my dishes in 10 years since I moved into my current house and no problems. I use a concentrated anti-bacterial soap instead.

Without it, you will be ingesting residual detergent, and/or you will not have removed bacteria. In fact, the hot water is more important than detergent. Restaurants use extremely hot water instead of detergent.

Never had a problem.

The cost per day is also dependant the fuel used, and the temperature where the tank is located. Without using the stove, leaving only the water-heater on the gas line, the bill at my last apartment was $55 for the month or $1.83 per day and rising rapidly with fuel costs. This was with the heater set on "low."

Thats a crazy amount of money to run a hot water tank !! Usually hot water tanks have actual temp settings and there are 2 thermostats per tank, you may have only turned down 1 of them. You might want to check that. Also draining and purging your tank a few times per year will help keep sediment deposits from building up in your tank. The more sediment in the tank the more expensive it is to run.

EDIT to add: I also did not use hot water for showers very often, using the shower at the gym instead.

Good idea to save money but many gyms have massive bacterial problems. If you're concerned about that in your kitchen, you should be frightened about gyms.

They go to the bathroom somewhere. That bathroom has a sink I bet.

Most rooming houses do not allow eating in the rooms, for obvious reasons. The people who sneak food into their rooms are not about blow their cover and be tossed out by bringing their dishes down to the public restroom.

If you live in a rooming house, this would indeed cause complications for eating and preparing more healthy meals.

If you are extremely poor you probably don't have a dish washer. If you have one, they're not very expensive to run a few times a week.

I have never had a dishwasher myself, but they just seem like a very ineffecient use of resources.

The old models from the 80's and even early 90's were inefficient. The new models don't use much water, detergent or electricity.

Many poor people actually do have dishwashers that were built in when the complexes were constructed.

Doesn't mean they should use them. Also the older apartment dishwashers are not very good at cleaning anyway requiring pre-rinsing and post rinsing so why bother using them at all.

There are also a lot of people who have become poor since moving to their home.

This is very true and very sad. I live in Michigan which is the only state in a recession and has been in a recession for the last several years. There are quite a few people who have lost their homes or have become poor or more poor then they were before our "one state recession".


[edit on 8-2-2008 by jfj123]

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by jfj123

 

Just curious but in what area of the United States are these items not available?

Anywhere you can't afford it. Anywhere you don't have a place to store it or prepare it.

In my current situation I have no cold storage, or a place to prepare foods much of them time.

If I want salad, I have to splurge at the fast-food joint for a salad sprayed with chemicals and flavor enhancers.

I'm not sure how financially strapped you are but one solution I came up with when I moved in was buying a used mini-refrigerator which cost me $50.00 and I lived out of that for quite a long time. If you pack it just right, you can get quite alot in them

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by jfj123

 

Do you know why the reason for the nutrient drops? Are you implying that the NWO is doing this on purpose?

Well, they're not doing it by accident. Especially when you look at the profits rolling in.

The nutrient drops are related to over farming which depletes the ground of nutrients which in turn depletes the veggies and fruits. They must continue planting anyway to keep making money.

reply to post by jackinthebox


Americans are getting fatter for 2 main reasons

1. Because we have more of a sedentary lifestyle then we ever have.
2. We have access to more high fat and high sugar foods then we ever have.

reply to post by jackinthebox

A loaf of cheap white bread is no more nutritious than fast food. The same goes for the tomato that has been stripped of nutrients by time it hits the produce market.

You have made some good points but they are eclipsed by statements like these above. May I suggest, you moderate your posts a bit to include more accurate information. I understand you are passionate about this but posting incorrect or misleading information is not how to get the word out.

A loaf of white bread is most definitely more nutritious then fast food. Here's an example:

1 big mac
1 serving
214 grams
540 Total calories
260 calories FAT
100 calories PROTEIN
180 calories CARB's
1040 mg sodium

1 medium fries
380 Total calories
180 calories FAT
16 calories PROTEIN
184 calories CARB's
220 mg sodium

1 medium drink (coke)
210 Total calories
0 calories FAT
0 calories PROTEIN
210 calories CARB's
15 mg sodium

Big mac medium meal totals
1130 Total calories
440 calories FAT
116 calories PROTEIN
574 calories CARB's
1275 mg sodium

1 entire loaf of white bread
22 servings
1320 calories for entire loaf
99 calories FAT
176 calories PROTEIN
1045 calories CARB's
2860 mg sodium
0 cholesterol

I'm not posting vit., min., chol,. etc. as this would take forever.

reply to post by jfj123

Thats a crazy amount of money to run a hot water tank !! Usually hot water tanks have actual temp settings and there are 2 thermostats per tank, you may have only turned down 1 of them. You might want to check that. Also draining and purging your tank a few times per year will help keep sediment deposits from building up in your tank. The more sediment in the tank the more expensive it is to run.

The tank was owned and operated by the slumlord, so I couldn't service it and he wouldn't service it. Each apartment had their own tank though, and their own gas meter. (Obviously NO utilities were included in the rent.) I also had two very serious problems with the furnace. On one ocassion I had a pet die as a result, while I was gone overnight. On another ocassion, my brother and I would have died from carbon poisining in our sleep if the neighbor hadn't seen all of the black smoke coming out of the chimney.

Good idea to save money but many gyms have massive bacterial problems. If you're concerned about that in your kitchen, you should be frightened about gyms.

The gym was cheap but clean. There was an anti-bacterial spray you could shoot around the shower stall before you got in.

Doesn't mean they should use them. Also the older apartment dishwashers are not very good at cleaning anyway requiring pre-rinsing and post rinsing so why bother using them at all.

My girlfriend's family has one, but doesn't bother to use it. She has said that it doesn't make much sense to wash the dishes twice.

reply to post by jfj123

I'm not sure how financially strapped you are but one solution I came up with when I moved in was buying a used mini-refrigerator which cost me $50.00 and I lived out of that for quite a long time. If you pack it just right, you can get quite alot in them

I am living out of my car, but try not to keep anything in it, to keep the gas mileage up. I'm ususally lucky enough to throw down a narrow mattress in a basement hallway most nights though. (This is obviously not my computer I am using either.)

reply to post by jfj123

The nutrient drops are related to over farming which depletes the ground of nutrients which in turn depletes the veggies and fruits. They must continue planting anyway to keep making money.

There is plenty of land that could be used for farming that is not. There are also new techniques and (safe) technologies that are not being used.

But you are right about the making money part.

reply to post by jfj123

Americans are getting fatter for 2 main reasons
1. Because we have more of a sedentary lifestyle then we ever have.
2. We have access to more high fat and high sugar foods then we ever have.

This is true, but we must look at the causes of these conditions as well. The sedentary nature of our new lifestyle is the result of the types of jobs that are available to us, and the lack of energy that comes with poor nutrition. Then of course there is also the socio-psychological factors in how we choose to recreate. I can remember there used to be soft-ball leagues that would play in public parks during nice weather. Just for fun, real amateur stuff. No unifroms or anything. Now you're lucky if you can find someone to play ping-pong with.

We certainly have access to high fat high calorie foods. Too much access. It is being forced down our throats in a multitude of ways. Our personal choice in the matter is becoming more irrelevant each year. Hence the surge in obesity and illness in America in the past few decades. These are people whose personal choices have been overrun.

reply to post by jfj123


Aw, come on now. Who's gonna sit down and eat a whole loaf of bread? Do you really think that's better for you than a Big Mac meal anyway?

I may be back to ring in on this one again later.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by jfj123

 

Aw, come on now. Who's gonna sit down and eat a whole loaf of bread? Do you really think that's better for you than a Big Mac meal anyway?

I may be back to ring in on this one again later.

Look closer at the comparison.
The bread is obviously DRASTICALLY lower in fat and has zero cholesterol. Although I didn't post the cholesterol info for the big mac, it obviously has a decent amount.

So we have one big mac meal or an entire loaf of bread. The loaf of bread would last me 4 meals and give me the same feeling of fullness as the big mac meal. Obviously everyone is different.

Now lets price compare (prices in Michigan)
1 Big mac meal (medium) $4.25
1 loaf of bread which for me would equate to 4 meals $ .99 - $1.50

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by jfj123

 

The nutrient drops are related to over farming which depletes the ground of nutrients which in turn depletes the veggies and fruits. They must continue planting anyway to keep making money.

There is plenty of land that could be used for farming that is not. There are also new techniques and (safe) technologies that are not being used.

But you are right about the making money part.

There are a lot of farmers who simply can't afford those new techniques or purchasing more land, so they must over farm their lands constantly just to get by.

reply to post by jfj123

So we have one big mac meal or an entire loaf of bread. The loaf of bread would last me 4 meals and give me the same feeling of fullness as the big mac meal. Obviously everyone is different.

If you are going to turn the loaf of bread into four meals, then you have to cut the nutritional values into quarters as well. Also note that the loaf of bread has nearly double the sodium content.

As far as the "feeling" of fullness goes, you're going right down the wrong road that has been intentionally layed out before you. You are trading in nutrition for the "feeling of fullness."

EDIT to add:

And again, it is not healthy to survive on bread alone. There will be ill effects to such a diet. Note the higher carb count in your figures as well, nearly double.



[edit on 2/9/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by jfj123

There are a lot of farmers who simply can't afford those new techniques or purchasing more land, so they must over farm their lands constantly just to get by.

That's because "they" are trying to kill the small farmer. They've been doing it in waves since the seventies at least.

Most of the food we eat today comes from corporate farms which certainly can afford to be responsible to the land and the people whom they feed. Instead they choose higher profit margins.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by jfj123

 

So we have one big mac meal or an entire loaf of bread. The loaf of bread would last me 4 meals and give me the same feeling of fullness as the big mac meal. Obviously everyone is different.

If you are going to turn the loaf of bread into four meals, then you have to cut the nutritional values into quarters as well.

It doesn't matter, bread is still better for you then the big mac meal.

Also note that the loaf of bread has nearly double the sodium content.

For an entire loaf yes it is but also keep in mind that there is zero cholesterol in the bread or sat. fats, etc.. Overall the bread is better for you then the big mac meal.

As far as the "feeling" of fullness goes, you're going right down the wrong road that has been intentionally layed out before you. You are trading in nutrition for the "feeling of fullness."

No not really. A high protein meal that could be very low in fat and sodium, would give you a longer feeling of fullness also as it stabilizes insulin levels.

And again, it is not healthy to survive on bread alone.

I never said it was completely healthy, just more healthy then the big mac meal. People have subsisted on bread and water in the past for very long periods of time. Recommended?? Maybe not but possible.

There will be ill effects to such a diet. Note the higher carb count in your figures as well, nearly double.

There's really nothing wrong with carbs as long as they are complex and not in excess just like with anything else.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by jfj123

 

There are a lot of farmers who simply can't afford those new techniques or purchasing more land, so they must over farm their lands constantly just to get by.

That's because "they" are trying to kill the small farmer. They've been doing it in waves since the seventies at least.

Most of the food we eat today comes from corporate farms which certainly can afford to be responsible to the land and the people whom they feed. Instead they choose higher profit margins.

I think you're misinterpreting what's happening. The big corporate farms are trying to make money, not put the small farmer out of business as policy. By their business structure, they do put a lot of small farmers out of business but the intent is slightly different then you're assuming.

As s I don't have a lot of time to create a decent post for this thread, I would like to put up a reply that I made in a thread that dealt with this same subject(well almost). Take the time to look over that thread also. Lots of great info on this discussion was provided there also.

Interesting discussion you all have going here. One I can speak on with some degree of knowledge as I am a chef.

To start, both sides of the argument here are correct. It can cost more to eat healthy. This depends on where you live though. If you live in or near a agricultural centre, you should be able to buy fruits and vegetables cheap for most of the year. Along with what little bit of meat you actually need in your diet. But most of us don't so we have to rely on markets for our food. Which drives up the cost of our food because of the added cost to the supplier to get the product to you. Every time food changes hands along the way, the price goes up.Add the fact that government subsidies ,as mentioned, are given in the most part to the industries that we require the least of in our diets. For us in the northern half of the continent, the things we need most in our diets have to travel the farthest to get to us, yet those same crops get the least amount of help from governments. Does that make sense?


Then you get these mega companies that can mass produce that processed crap they call food for next to nothing so they can afford to sell it to you for dirt cheap and still make huge profits.For example, I was at my local super market this evening grabbing a couple of things, one of which was soy milk. $3.79 for a two litre. I also noticed that you could get on special 4 2l of pop(or soda) for $4. So the crap, sugar and additive full pop, cost $4.96 total with tax and deposit for 8l of it while the healthy, nutrient rich soy milk cost me $3.79 for 2l. Oh and the pop was placed in a high traffic area where everyone that came into the store would see. So, which one would you buy if you were poor and had little money to spare for food?


Then there's your fast food joints. All I will say about them is they have conducted the most successful, mass marketing, brainwashing campaign in history. They have ingrained themselves into our everyday life like nothing else. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it's discovered in the future that some of the crap they add into the stuff they pass off as food, turns out to be highly addictive. Remember the Tobacco companies told us for a long time that nicotine wasn't addictive.

If you are a smart shopper and take the time to prepare enough to eat for more than one meal, it will cost you less than fast food(I include food that you can buy already to take home and cook and microwave meals, not just restaurants). There in lies the problem though. People don't have the time to do this or won't make the time. Remember that old saying..."Time is Money". So it's easier to buy the prepackaged, premade lasagna and just pop it in the oven or the microwave than it is to buy all the ingredients and make it. Most don't take the time to think that penny for penny, you could probably get three meals if you made it yourself. It is seen as time saved now. Which on one level could be viewed as lazy but on another could be seen as a reflection of our society as a whole, instant gratification.

What it comes down to for me is that our western society has lost its way when it comes to food. The example of the people's of Bangladesh used earlier is a great one, although it can be said that the poor there aren't obese because they have no food. The urbanization of our world has taken away the appreciation of where food comes from and what it takes to actually grow food. Now we just expect the grocery store's to have every thing ready for us so we can just pop in, grab a box of this or a package of that, go home and have our meal in front of us in a few minutes. I even noticed tonight that they have precooked beef roasts, ready to microwave for a dollar less than the same roast cost raw!! I looked on the package and there where over a dozen ingredients.I just had to shake my head. People have lost the love for taking the time to actually prepare meals, for themselves or for thier family, and in doing so, have left ourselves open to the problems that entails. I actually agree with Flyer on some of his points; we don't have any one to blame but ourselves for what we have let happen.


Sorry if this post is rambling all over the place. This is a subject that I have some strong feelings about but I am tired tonight. If you want anything clarified, just ask. I'll try and make a little more sense after some rest.

Here's the thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Oh and an applause for both of you( jack and jfj) for really good contributions in this thread.

reply to post by GAOTU789


Thank you also for your contribution. Very interesting post

I think you make a good point in that there is no absolute with pricing, it just depends on where you live.

My personal opinion regarding the addictive ingredients in which you are referring are:
Fat, processed sugar and salt.
Lets face it, these things taste good and the more of them you eat, the more of them you crave.
For example, have you ever been camping and told to NEVER feed the wild animals? They love people food so much, they will adopt risky behavior to get it. The taste of the foods is what becomes addictive to them as well as, I believe, what causes our addiction. Of course this is just my humble opinion.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
I am living out of my car, but try not to keep anything in it, to keep the gas mileage up. I'm ususally lucky enough to throw down a narrow mattress in a basement hallway most nights though. (This is obviously not my computer I am using either.)

I am not trying to dig into your personal business, but I am curious... What do you do for a living?

You are obviously in a tough financial situation, and a lot of us are right now, so I am not judging you about that. But for someone who is so strapped for cash, you spend A LOT of time posting on this website. I understand that it's not your computer that you're using, but you post at all hours of the day and night. When do you go to work?

I can't post all that often, because I am at work 40 hours a week, and I am trying to work more than that.

It almost sounds like you are either exaggerating your current situation, or that you are causing it yourself by spending so much time having the last word with strangers insteading of working. Note: I am not accusing you of anything... I said it almost sounds that way.