Pope warns of 'seductive' science

Originally posted by Silenceisall
reply to post by RandomThought

 

I could also be argued that pure science is not soley responsible for bringing you the computer, and a lot of other goodies. Human imagination, which I believe is linked to our spiritual side, has played a major role in it as well.

Hmmm...not too sure where you're going with this one. Science IS human imagination It takes human imagination to theorize, then to experiment. Finally to invent. All these critical steps take imagination.

J.

Originally posted by Silenceisall
reply to post by budski

 

Budski: I think social control is only part of the story of religion. Scientists and atheists like to point to religion as a means of control to explain its existence, while saying nothing about other possible reasons for its existence, such as the spiritual side of man. There is some good in religions still. As they begin to shed their social influence, that basic core of spirituality may be revealed again.

[edit on 29-1-2008 by Silenceisall]

Right now though - religions are not trying to 'shed their social influence', are they? If anything I would argue the exact opposite: there is a highly disturbing trend worldwide, in the east and west, of all forms of orthodox and extreme belief systems resurfacing in their ugly, intolerant, medieval forms...

J.

Click here for more information.

Man is not the fruit of chance or a bundle of convergences, determinisms or physical and chemical reactions," he told a meeting of academics of different disciplines sponsored by the Paris Academy of Sciences and Pontifical Academy of Sciences.

He is right whether he used Religion as a context or otherwise. Some people want evidence or proof of this statement, I can't stress enough the importance of when I say, you are proof. Those who are only revolved around Science cannot grasp Spirituality because it is simply to overwhelming to be explained by numbers and charts. I believe Science will evolve until its theories are somewhat Spiritual.

A tragic but beautiful phenomena is a NDE (Near Death Experience). With our Scientific knowledge, at first one explanation was that the experience was the dying last gasps of the Brain, shooting out Hormones and other factors such as pain and oxygen deprivation produced mega Hallucinations, and then dies; but comes back alive. The experience occurs through the whole ordeal while EEG readings are completely flat, absolutely 0 activity in the Brain. The person is declared dead from hours to days. Hallucinations and Dreams happen with random scenarios, but a NDE is sequenced and organized. The person with the experience comes back learning a great deal of self and many other things and experiences epiphanies, all while the Brain is dead. Scientists and Experts alike seem to lean towards a conclusion OTHER than Scientific, because that is how unexplainable it is by Science.

As I said before, if you want proof or evidence that Man is more than Man thinks, prove it yourself. With an open mind learn methods to achieve other states of Consciousness such as OBEs, Meditation and Lucid Dreaming so you can see for yourself. Science and Technology are footprints of Consciousness.

PS: This is not Religious.

[edit on 29-1-2008 by Moegli]

Believing in a god isn't the problem it's the religions that believe science is taboo when science has done a lot of good. I laughed when I read that the pope was worried over genetic engineering, when he knows damn well that we are all genetically engineered! With that said yes there is a science behind it. Let's talk about how much damage the Vatican has done over the course of history.

reply to post by jimbo999


Jimbo: I would not argue with that, but we still have not defined human imagination or science.

Originally posted by Moegli

Man is not the fruit of chance or a bundle of convergences, determinisms or physical and chemical reactions," he told a meeting of academics of different disciplines sponsored by the Paris Academy of Sciences and Pontifical Academy of Sciences.

He is right whether he used Religion as a context or otherwise. Some people want evidence or proof of this statement, I can't stress enough the importance of when I say, you are proof. Those who are only revolved around Science cannot grasp Spirituality because it is simply to overwhelming to be explained by numbers and charts. I believe Science will evolve until its theories are somewhat Spiritual.

A tragic but beautiful phenomena is a NDE (Near Death Experience). With our Scientific knowledge, at first one explanation was that the experience was the dying last gasps of the Brain, shooting out Hormones and other factors such as pain and oxygen deprivation produced mega Hallucinations, and then dies; but comes back alive. The experience occurs through the whole ordeal while EEG readings are completely flat, absolutely 0 activity in the Brain. The person is declared dead from hours to days. Hallucinations and Dreams happen with random scenarios, but a NDE is sequenced and organized. The person with the experience comes back learning a great deal of self and many other things and experiences epiphanies, all while the Brain is dead. Scientists and Experts alike seem to lean towards a conclusion OTHER than Scientific, because that is how unexplainable it is by Science.

As I said before, if you want proof or evidence that Man is more than Man thinks, prove it yourself. With an open mind learn methods to achieve other states of Consciousness such as OBEs, Meditation and Lucid Dreaming so you can see for yourself. Science and Technology are footprints of Consciousness.

PS: This is not Religious.

[edit on 29-1-2008 by Moegli]

I think you are right on with that post.

Originally posted by Silenceisall
reply to post by xDove007

 

...Maybe because we are being convinced we need more technology time savers that themselves consume our time.

[edit on 29-1-2008 by Silenceisall]

I agree that technology is a time saver, but as you've stated - it is making us more lazy than it should, plus we're depending on it way too much.

Can you imagine the chaos that it'll bring if something happens that renders our technology useless? Personally, I won't mind being "disconnected" but hey, if people before our time could live a life, so can we!

reply to post by xDove007


I don't think I want to be disconnected, since I believe that the Internet is an amazingly useful thing. Yep, I think I would be perfectly happy living on a farm with a high speed internet link and not much else.

Originally posted by jimbo999

Right now though - religions are not trying to 'shed their social influence', are they? If anything I would argue the exact opposite: there is a highly disturbing trend worldwide, in the east and west, of all forms of orthodox and extreme belief systems resurfacing in their ugly, intolerant, medieval forms...

J.

I agree 100%. The things I've heard people say and do, people who are supposed to be religious and loving, are pretty shocking and hateful sometimes. I'm not generalizing everyone that has faith with that statement, because not everyone is like that. I'm just shocked at how hateful some people that are supposed to 'love thy neighbor' can be. That was a bit off topic for this thread, sorry.

But back to the subject of the OP, I'd like it if someday religious figures will be a bit more encouraging for the quest of more knowledge through science. It more than likely won't happen, but it would be nice.

Well, I certainly agree. It's clear that "science" so called has been managed, as has thinking in general, and that lies are spread far and wide for all kinds of reasons.

I'm sure we're heading towards the Woody Allen kind of Sleeper day when what we thought was bad was really good and what we thought was scientific was a bunch of crap. Black holes, evolution, warped space, time travel, are just a few of the fantasy physics that have suckered the geniuses for generations now.

Also look at the fact that the Pope is the only high profile public figure to speak against man made global warming. Although you may say he is coming at this from a spiritual aspect, that vatican have a whole lot of scientists that work for them also. Also alot of people outside the ipcc have stated that man made global warming is rubbish.

So you can see that science and faith can come together on one footing.

Originally posted by HeadFirstForHalos
I'd like it if someday religious figures will be a bit more encouraging for the quest of more knowledge through science. It more than likely won't happen, but it would be nice.

Wouldn't it just. Either that or they stay out of the way of scientific progress.

For example, I was having a discussion with a devout Catholic (part of my Critical Thinking class, basically we get to argue with each other) about human-animal chimeras and the implications they could have to medical science.

I had some good points I think, we could grow human organs in animal bodies and then harvest them for transplants/research. I've said it many times before and I'm gonna say it again, I would happily kill 1000 animals to preserve a single innocent human life. Not that I don't love animals, I do, it's just that we should put ourselves first and foremost.

He looked disgusted, saying that the human would would still be in the organs and that it's a desecration of God's will. So, I give him the whole, 'If God didn't want us to do it, why give us the ability?' All I got back was that science was the Devils work, invented to allure us away from the true path.

I knew I'd lost there and then because half the class probably wanted me dead, a quarter were on my side and a quarter were either too drunk or tired to contribute.

I know that was a bit off topic and all, but it's a fine example of religious views getting in the way of science.

Originally posted by Zanzibar
So, I give him the whole, 'If God didn't want us to do it, why give us the ability?'

If God didn't want us to destroy the planet and wipe out all life on Earth, why give us the ability to do it 15 times over?

I'm sorry but sacrificing even 5 animals for the life of 1 Human being is a senseless act. Believe it or not, animals big or small possess a certain level of self awareness and that reason alone is enough to put me off from sacrificing them. Imagine a species much more intelligent and and possess a higher level of Consciousness sacrificing 10 Human lives for the wellbeing of one of their own, and one of the sacrificed was a family member.

Although it is my humble opinion that a species more evolved than us would NOT resort to sacrificing any number of Humans for the sake of their own, it is something to think about carefully and acted upon responsibly

Originally posted by Moegli

Originally posted by Zanzibar
So, I give him the whole, 'If God didn't want us to do it, why give us the ability?'

If God didn't want us to destroy the planet and wipe out all life on Earth, why give us the ability to do it 15 times over?

I'm sorry but sacrificing even 5 animals for the life of 1 Human being is a senseless act. Believe it or not, animals big or small possess a certain level of self awareness and that reason alone is enough to put me off from sacrificing them. Imagine a species much more intelligent and and possess a higher level of Consciousness sacrificing 10 Human lives for the wellbeing of one of their own, and one of the sacrificed was a family member.

Although it is my humble opinion that a species more evolved than us would NOT resort to sacrificing any number of Humans for the sake of their own, it is something to think about carefully and acted upon responsibly

I agree totally with this post. The current level of our science always seems incredibly advanced to us, just like it did for scientists three hundred years ago (although now we giggle at their silly assumptions). To prop up humanity on a pedestal of science and proclaim that we are great and superior to all other earth life forms because of it is not only arrogant, it is stupid and ahistorical. BTW: I don’t think Einstein would agree with Zanzibar at all.

reply to post by Silenceisall


But we are better than all other life on this planet. Can anything else make roads, schools, hospitals? No, they can't. We alone can and that elevates us on to a pedestal, then we make a better pedestal and hop onto that.

I don't see why people are so keen on putting down their own species when it is obvious that we are the most superior life form here.

Now I know someone will bring out the whole morality thing, we kill each other and all that, but that's a small majority. Most humans are decent people and are such because of our mastery of the various sciences.

I admit the sacrifice of animals thing may have sounded a bit harsh and I know that animals have a sense of being and all that, but we should look after our own first. And let's face it, I'm hardly going to be in a position to do it anyway am I?

reply to post by Zanzibar


Your position rests on the assumption that our five senses allow us to take in everything that is going on around us--this is patently false as I'm sure you know. There is much going on in the animal kindom that we are unaware of because we cannot hear or see it (if you want a fuller appreciation of the earth's ecosystems, which operate much like one complex lifeform, I would suggest watching the BBC's Planet Earth series). You attitude is typical of the "prove it or it doesn't exist" crowd, who do not even realize that the ability to prove something itself rests on the level of advancement of a science. Humans are remarkable, but so is this planet.



[edit on 6-2-2008 by Silenceisall]

We've driven ourselves to need science right now. Through genetic engineering we will correct things human compassion has cost us. Unaided by compassion, natural selection would thrive, leaving those susceptible to certain diseases and abnormalities not productive to the current level of human existence to die out, leaving healthy, productive genetic specimens to reproduce and multiply.

I'm not saying compassion is wrong at all, but is has cost us as a species. Allowing those with these abnormalities to reproduce isn't weeding them out of our DNA. Now, smiting mother nature, denying her the ability to remove these defects, we have to make up for it ourselves. Through genetic engineering and science we may some day be able to cure cancers, heart disease, mental illness, diabetes, and other human defects.