Russia issues warning to U.S. & EU over Kosovo independence

Currant status and activity on the Russian fleet? There was big talk about the carrier some weeks ago.

Originally posted by Freeborn
So why won't Serbia allow Kosovan independance?
Is there no such thing as "the right to self-determination"?
The majority of people in the Kosovo province wish independance, why can't they have it?

I understand that I may seem quite naive here, I just want to fully understand both views.

A right to self-determination becomes viable if an ethnic group in some country doesn't have a "base" country or motherland/fatherland.

Kosovo Albanians already have their base country. It is called Albania.

Al-CIA-duh

Remember this:

U.S. supported al-Qaeda cells during Balkan Wars

Al-Qaeda 'helped Kosovo rebels'

U.S. Protects Al-Qaeda Terrorists in Kosovo

German Intelligence and the CIA supported Al Qaeda sponsored Terrorists in Yugoslavia

Looks like it the old days Al-Qaeda was fine and OK to support the interests of the West in the Balkan Wars. Now all of the sudden, when they are a threat to the civilized West, nobody talks about that anymore. Kosovo was - or still is - a European Al-Qaeda base, which was funded and supported by the western intelligence agencies. Which basicly means, that those agencies played with the fate of Kosovo and Serbia in those days and as it looks like, they still do.

So do you really want independance in such a country in Europe?

[edit on 29/1/08 by Souljah]

reply to post by Souljah

How to call it? Hypocrisy. Pure hypocrisy.

Even CFR is honest!
www.cfr.org...

Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA)

The group was founded in the early 1990s during a backlash against Serbian efforts to eliminate ethnic Albanian political influence inside the former Yugoslavia. President Bill Clinton's special envoy to the Balkans, Robert Gelbard, described the KLA as, "without any questions, a terrorist group." The KLA engaged in tit-for-tat attacks with Serbian nationalists in Kosovo, reprisals against ethnic Albanians who "collaborated" with the Serbian government, and bombed police stations and cafes known to be frequented by Serb officials, killing innocent civilians in the process. Most of its activities were funded by drug running, though its ties to community groups and Albanian exiles gave it local popularity. By 1999, however, the United States had embraced the KLA's cause, if not the group itself, working instead through the ethnic Albanian nationalist politician Ibrahim Rugova. Clinton spearheaded a NATO air war and subsequent invasion of Kosovo aimed at stopping Serbian ethnic cleansing there in 1999. After the war, the KLA was transformed into the Kosovo Protection Corps, which now works alongside NATO forces patrolling the province. Talks aimed at determining Kosovo's final status continue, and in March, the KLA's former leader, Agim Ceku, was elected prime minister of the province.

I mean we talk about CFR!

findarticles.com...

The coercive, even murderous, methods the KLA used against ethnic Albanians to squelch dissent, as well as its attacks on Serbian police and civilians, earned it the terrorist designation from our State Department. Last February, for example, Robert Gelbard, then the department's point man on Kosovo, told Agence France Presse that the KLA rebels were terrorists. "We condemn very strongly terrorist actions in Kosovo," said Gelbard. "The UCK is, without any questions, a terrorist group."
...
Last August, a Jane's publication said the CIA had traced support from Bin Laden's terrorist organization, Al Qa'ida, to Muslims fighting the Serbs in Kosovo. "Al Qa'ida supports Muslim fighters in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Tajikistan, Somalia, Yemen and now Kosovo," Jane's quoted from what it described as a CIA briefing paper. "Terrorism is a key component of Al Qa'ida's strategy, and Bin Laden cites Koranic references in an attempt to justify it."
...
In November, the London Sunday Times reported that the growing number of foreign mujahideen turning up in Kosovo meant poor prospects for peace. "The Islamic fighters created havoc in the war in Bosnia, where they were regarded as a serious threat to Western peacekeeping troops, especially Americans," the Sunday Times reported.

"American intelligence," the Sunday Times said, "has raised the possibility of a link between Osama Bin Laden, the Saudi expatriate blamed for the bombing in August of U.S. embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, and the KLA. Several of Bin Laden's supporters were arrested in Tirana, the Albanian capital, and deported this summer, and the chaotic conditions in the country have allowed Muslim extremists to settle there, often under the guise of humanitarian workers."

[edit on 29-1-2008 by Vojvoda]

Reply to maloy

And concerning the whole ethnic cleansing and genocide bull**** - this is just an example of propaganda at its finest. Albanians started the violence in the 90's. In my opinion Tito should have never given partial autonomy to Kosovo, because in the case with degenerate-minded separatists, if you give the dog a bone it will bite your hand off. Albanians were the ones who innitiated ethnic cleansing, as Serbian power and defense in the province was minimal. When this started to escalate, Milosevic rightly decided to intervene.

When Albania separated from the Ottoman State, including Kosovo, the Serbs began implementing their plan to fight Islam and the Muslims. The Serbs forces began exerting various types of pressures upon the Muslims of Kosovo. Arrest, killing, expulsion, deny of education and employment and other practices were employed against Muslims of Kosovo.

The villages were subjected to total destruction, number of the dead increasing day after day while the Serbs were pursuing in this respect the policy of the burnt land and the collective extermination. They have used different kinds of light and heavy weapons against an unarmed people who have no army nor a power which is against the moral values and the world customs before the eyes and the ears of the world at large.

The only reason why Serbs did what they did, is because that is what they had to do if they were to keep Kosovo and to protect the Serbian population of Kosovo. Serbs were faced with a well-funded guerilla force and insurgency, which used every dirty tactic in the book, including terrorism. Russia faced the same problem in Chechnya, but no one dared bomb Russia. What Serbs did in Kosovo was in now way NATO's business, and was an internal conflict.

So you don’t expect Muslims to fight back when they are being ethnically cleansed?

The guerrillas started to hammer the Serbs when they came in.
Russia is getting its ‘Lost Afghan War’ anger out on the Chechyans.Till today Russian soldiers keep dying because their tanks hit IEDs or helicopters get shot down.

So to anyone that says Kosovo Albanians deserve independence - you might as well be an anarchist.

By saying Kosovo Albanians deserve independence doesn’t mean you’re an ‘anarchist’.
The Kosova Independence is a must now. The Kosova Albanians are so eager to a complete independent that can help them build their own country and character. The province has struggled for survival and is still trying till now to heal the wounds of the awful impact of the Serbian invasion that killed tens of thousands of Albanians in the province.

And somewhat aside from the topic, the fact that Turkey today is trying to exert some influence on this issue and on Albanians today, is disgusting. Turkey and the Ottoman empire can be directly blamed for all of the conflicts in the Balkans as well as the Caucasus.

How is Turkey exerting influence on the issue of Albanians ‘disgusting’?

Its is very simple! Muslims support Muslims. Understand?

reply to post by kangjia57


kangjia,
Please for once try to see beyond the religious dogma, look at the facts and seek what is right for the people concerned.

I have considered what the OP, maloy, InSpiteOf etc have posted and there is no easy straightforward answer.

The issues are being wrapped up in religious, ethnic and political rhetoric which allows for little or no compromise.
This backs nations and communities into situations which have fatal consequences for the very people whose rights and consideration should be the priority.

I have no answers but as a great man, (more renowned for his work in other fields) said;

"The significant problems we face today, cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that caused them yesterday".
A. Einstein.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Its is very simple! Muslims support Muslims. Understand?

Oh i understand, Muslims support Muslims, by killing eachother. After all, the Sarajevo market massacre which was the catalyst for NATO forces to invade was a complete setup. Initally labelled as a Serbian shell, NATO Commanders later admitted they knew all along that the destructive device used that day was a bomb planted by Muslim (specifically KLA) forces.

It was in the KLA's interest to get NATO and Western powers to enter yugoslavia and completey against the interest of the Milosivec government to attack the market and thus, cause NATO to invade.

As maloy said, NATO voilated its own charter, which states (paraphrase) No Nation member will invade another country unless attacked first. (article 5)

And again as maloy already said, the propaganda machines were churning out the BS from well before the war. The claims of 50-100,000 muslim women raped by Serbian forces was never substanciated, and is in fact, logistically impossible. The Serbian forces number 30-50,000 and most of them were locked in desperate military conflict.

The KLA had no money? They have plenty of cash from the herion trade.

[edit on 29-1-2008 by InSpiteOf]

[edit on 29-1-2008 by InSpiteOf]

reply to post by kangjia57

World is not a black and white place... by your own definition i think you would be okay that all Muslims in Europe should be deported or executed? As Christians should support each other and Muslims are after all "invaders"? Please don't over simplify everything to Muhadjeen will kill ALL!! religious propaganda. (note, i do not suppport any violence or ethnic clensing)

There is another recent thread about Kosovo situation:
Kosovo's independence 'in days'

Looks like this is heating up...


Kosovo independence declaration possible in 10 days

PRISTINA, Serbia (Reuters) - Kosovo will declare independence from Serbia with Western backing the weekend after the February 3 Serbian presidential election if the nationalist candidate wins, political sources said on Wednesday.

"If (Tomislav) Nikolic wins, it's the 9th or 10th," a senior political source told Reuters on condition of anonymity.

A second source confirmed that if pro-Western incumbent Boris Tadic wins the knife-edge contest, ethnic Albanians in the breakaway province would be expected to wait at least another week, declaring on February 17 at the earliest.

The major Western powers are "pushing for February," one of the sources added. NATO's 16,000-strong peace force is braced for possible unrest, and a potential backlash by Serb-dominated north Kosovo where Serbs promise to reject independence.

European Union foreign ministers expect next month to approve the deployment a 1,800-strong police and justice mission over a 4-month transition from the United Nations authorities that have run Kosovo since the 1998-99 war.

Western diplomats say some of the 27 EU member states would favor delaying independence until late February or early March if Tadic wins Sunday's tight run-off election, keen to help him control the inevitable political fallout from the loss of what many Serbs regard as their religious heartland.


continued:
www.reuters.com...

If I am not mistaken, I think there are a few prophecies that mention that an asassination in this area will be the beginning of WWIII.

It is probably a good idea to watch this area closely!

Yesiree...This is heating up quickly, and has the potential to become a HIGHLY explosive issue. Something for us all to be concerned about IMO!

Bosnian Envoy rejects Serb claim of right to secede

SARAJEVO (Reuters) - Bosnia's international peace envoy on Wednesday dismissed a demand by Bosnian Serbs for the right to secede, on the grounds that if Kosovo can have independence so should they.

Milorad Dodik, Prime Minister of the autonomous Serb Republic, told reporters late on Tuesday that his region wanted to see "the right to self-determination and secession" incorporated into the Bosnian constitution, currently being debated by the country's ethnic Serbs, Croats and Muslims.

Opinion polls show a large majority of Bosnian Serbs believe their republic should secede if the ethnic Albanian-majority Kosovo province declares independence from neighboring Serbia -- likely within weeks.

"The Serb Republic wants this right to be built into the new constitution of Bosnia," Dodik said. "There could also be a dissolution."

Miroslav Lajcak, the Slovak diplomat overseeing the implementation of the peace accords that ended the 1992-95 war between Bosnia's three main ethnic groups, immediately slammed the proposal.

"Bosnia-Herzegovina is an internationally recognized state, its territorial integrity is guaranteed by the Dayton peace agreement and its existence cannot be questioned," Lajcak said.

The Dayton treaty carved Bosnia in two: Serbs got half the country and a Muslim-Croat federation the other half.

Continued:
www.reuters.com...

Originally posted by kangjia57
When Albania separated from the Ottoman State, including Kosovo, the Serbs began implementing their plan to fight Islam and the Muslims. The Serbs forces began exerting various types of pressures upon the Muslims of Kosovo. Arrest, killing, expulsion, deny of education and employment and other practices were employed against Muslims of Kosovo.

Those were turbulent times, and after the Ottoman Empire and its puppets were kicked out of Europe (for the most part anyway), many nations that were previously occupied targeted and oppressed the remaining Muslims - even more so in Bulgaria than in Serbia. The Ottoman occupation was extrememely cruel and lasted centuries, thus the heated hatered of the occupiers remained high throughtout South-Eastern Europe. Obviously those who prospered under the Ottoman rule (Albanians) were also widely despised.

this is not a discussion about what happened hundreds of years ago. What you describe - took place throughout the world at that time, and is in no way limited to Albanians.

Originally posted by kangjia57
So you don’t expect Muslims to fight back when they are being ethnically cleansed?

You either don't read, or fail to proficiently comprehend that which is being written in simple english. The Albanians started the violance when Serbia did not let them separate. The Albanians started targeting local Kosovo Serbs in organized attacks, even resorting to kidnapping - in attempts to terrorize the population into leaving Kosovo and letting the KLA establish their own gangster paradise there.

Why is the term "ethnically cleansed" being thrown around so often by people? Oh My God - someone beat up my brother in school - OH NO WE ARE BEING ETHNICALLY CLEANSED. Sure there are instances of real genocide - but more often than not "ethnical cleansing" is propaganda used by some side. In some instances such propaganda was used to retaliate with real ethnical cleansing.

Originally posted by kangjia57
The guerrillas started to hammer the Serbs when they came in.
Russia is getting its ‘Lost Afghan War’ anger out on the Chechyans.Till today Russian soldiers keep dying because their tanks hit IEDs or helicopters get shot down.

the guerillas organized and attacked Serb policemen and civilians before Serb army went in.

And what is the point of stating the obvious about Russia? Everyone knows the mistakes of the Chechen Wars, but the region was brought under Russian control in the end.

Originally posted by kangjia57
By saying Kosovo Albanians deserve independence doesn’t mean you’re an ‘anarchist’.

True. It could mean that you are a humanitarian with a bleeding heart, and a brain highly susceptible to Western propaganda and brainwashing.

Or better yet it could mean that you are senior corporate economist in U.S. or EU who made an estimate that the West could profit from a disintegrated Serbia.

Originally posted by kangjia57
The Kosova Independence is a must now.

So is the Respublika Srpska Independence, North Ireland Independence, Turkish Armenian Independence, The Basque Independence, the Catalonian Independence, the Scotish Independence, the Transdniester Independence, the Abkhazia Independence, the South Ossetia Independence, the Nagorno Karabakh Independence, the Kurdish Independence. Heck I am sure some want the Californian Independence. While we are at it lets open an open worldwide registration for independence. Anyone who wants independence just has to submit an application, think of a new name for the country, and pay $10 Independence Processing Fee - and you are on your way to becoming a Republic, Federation, Kingdom, Empire, or whoever the hell you want.

By the way it is KosovO NOT KosovA. There is no such entity as KosovA, at least as far as international law is concerned. Unless you are talking about a small town called Kosova in Estonia.

Originally posted by kangjia57
The Kosova Albanians are so eager to a complete independent that can help them build their own country and character.

You mean to have KLA terrorists build a country and character. You know - it worked really great with Taliban, at least for the members of the Taliban.

Originally posted by kangjia57
The province has struggled for survival and is still trying till now to heal the wounds of the awful impact of the Serbian invasion that killed tens of thousands of Albanians in the province.

You mean the awful impact of having NATO bomb the country for weeks.

Originally posted by kangjia57
How is Turkey exerting influence on the issue of Albanians ‘disgusting’?

All of the problems in the Balkans today can be linked directly to the occupation by the Ottoman Empire. Same goes for the Caucasus, and other regions of what used to be the Ottoman Empire. This topic is not a history book, so go and read one.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Its is very simple! Muslims support Muslims. Understand?

Yeah I understand. Muslims support Muslims, even if the Muslims being supported are clearly incorrect and are in violation of international and national law. You might as well say - Its very simple, Muslims are biased in favor of Muslims.

And if only that was true... To see how Palestinian refugees are treated by the host countries like Lebanon and Jordan is atrocious. Same goes for the bloody conflict between Shia and Sunni Muslims in Iraq, and between Kurds and Turkey. Muslims only give a **** about other Muslims when they stand to profit on the support in some way. As such Muslims are no different from any other people. There is no true world-wide Muslim solidarity - it is all bull**** and seems nice from the outside. Muslims fight each other just as much as any other people. The fact that they have organization like Al Quida is another matter, but there are differences between Muslims there as well.


[edit on 30-1-2008 by maloy]

The latest developements on this as of today....

Watershed Serbia vote plays out in shadow of Kosovo

BELGRADE (Reuters) - Pro-Western Serbian President Boris Tadic faces nationalist challenger Tomislav Nikolic on Sunday in an election that will decide Serbia's attitude to the West after the imminent loss of breakaway Kosovo province.

Analysts say it amounts to a referendum on the nation's future. The race is so close that monitors may withhold exit polls for fear of provoking premature celebrations and tension.

The European Union, urging Serbs to break with the lingering legacies of the late autocratic and nationalist ruler Slobodan Milosevic, wants Tadic to win.

Tadic, like Nikolic, opposes independence for Kosovo but would try to stop a relapse into the defiant nationalism of the 1990s once the land-locked territory breaks away with Western backing in coming weeks.

"We find ourselves at a crossroads," Tadic said in a televised debate with Nikolic on Wednesday night. "The European path has no alternative, it contains all our hopes. The years of isolation must be over once and for all."

Nikolic, a Russophile who has toned down his nationalist rhetoric to appeal to moderates, said he would never oppose EU entry -- if the bloc backed off from recognising Kosovo.

"The EU will have in me a tough negotiator, I will first of all defend Serbia," he said. "The EU no longer has the same rigid stance it had at previous elections...they said they'll continue to cooperate with Serbia no matter who becomes president."

Continued
www.reuters.com...

I can't wait to see how uglier this is going to get over the next few weeks. Why should they have their own country, no reason? Why doesn't the U.S. give back parts of TX, CA & AZ back to Mexico? Oh wait, it doesn't matter because the U.S. no loger exists anyway!

I see it as being very likely that war will spread yet again in Yugoslavia and it will be yet another good money making opportunity for those really in charge of the world

I just really hope the people of Serbia and Kosovo are not pinned against eachother in another war. Serbia will be in a tight spot with Western Support falling, once agian, on the side of the KLA and Kosovo independance.

The world is in enough termoil, we dont need Europe to be ablaze aswell.

Here we go-things are starting to turn ugly. This could spark off a pretty big war soon...


Some EU states oppose Kosovo bid

Romania and Cyprus have warned that they will not recognise any unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo.
Romanian President Traian Basescu said recognition would send "a bad signal" which could not be justified and cast a shadow over the United Nations charter.

Cypriot Foreign Minister Erato Kozakou-Marcoullis said it could create a precedent in international relations.

Kosovo Prime Minister Hashim Thaci said recently a declaration of independence from Serbia could be made within days.

The United States and most EU countries are expected to recognise an independent Kosovo without approval from the UN Security Council. They back a UN special envoy's plan for internationally supervised independence.

Continued:
news.bbc.co.uk...

Looks like the Serbs have spoken.

Serbia election victory for Tadic

This will likely ease the pressure a bit, but the fate of Kosovo is now one step closer to being decided. I have no doubt though that Tadic will keep contesting Kosovo as long as he can.

Since Tadic favors closer relations with EU, I think the fate of Kosovo will now shift to EU - and in recent weeks there have been some new support for Kosovo remaining in Serbia in some EU countries. I hope it is possible that EU will back down with the pressure, and the Kosovo decision will be put off for another few months. With Tadic there is still some hope that an agreement can be reached, if not with the Albanians then with the EU.

Personally I think Tadic was a safer choice, if not necessarily better. What remains to be seen is if there are any changes to his policies.



The Serbs have shown willingness to abandon their old regime and to embrace a new era. Yet Kosovo Albanians are still supporting the scum and the thugs who brought about this whole mess in the first place. Why is it that Kosovo Albanians have shown no willingness to make cooperative agreements in all talks between the two sides? Why is the U.S. still supporting the terrorist-backed separatists who have more blood on their hands than Milosevic and all his generals combined? Seriously - what the hell does the U.S./NATO want out of this deal. It's certainly not an agreement that would satisfy the majority in the long run.

Serbs have put their trust in EU in this election - despite the fact that EU let them down numerous times. Now it is up to EU and its members to stand up for international law and for Serbia's right to territorial integrity. A failure to this and continued isolation of Serbia, will worsen how EU is seen in many countries, and will bring radicals to the top of Serbian politics.

Today it's Serbia being cut apart by a certain powers that be, for secessionist causes, while others stand by and watch. Who is it going to be tomorrow? I can think of quite a few countries, some even in Europe. This bull**** must stop and it must stop now - it will not reconcile any differences, but only bring about more antagonism and aggression.

[edit on 3-2-2008 by maloy]

Bush has got to be gritting his teeth on this one. I would bet he wants and I hope he throws the terrorist in Kosovo to the dogs. How anyone in the U.S. or Europe supports this move for Independence is beyond me. I think NATO should say oh well we need the troops in Afghanistan so bye bye now have a nice life and if the Serbs start slaughtering you please don't call.

Serbian PM denounces EU agreement

Serbian PM Vojislav Kostunica has condemned a planned political accord with the EU, sparking a rift within Serbia's ruling coalition.
He said that by offering a deal while it was planning a police mission to Kosovo, Brussels was tricking Serbia into recognising Kosovo's independence.

The EU formally agreed a civilian mission on Monday, hours after Serbian President Boris Tadic was re-elected.

President Tadic's government faction insists on signing the EU agreement.

"Thursday is D-day," he said, "if they sign, anything can happen with the government". Said Mr. Kostinica.
BBC

Will we see the Serbian government breaking over this issue? Is there someone behind the scenes that could step out and push Serbia into the Eu-accord or to some desperate action?

Latest developments as of today:


Battle over EU, Kosovo paralyzes Serbian Government

BELGRADE (Reuters) - Serbia was politically paralyzed on Wednesday over an invitation from the European Union to sign a pact that nationalists say is simply a trap to get the government to concede the independence of Kosovo.

The coalition of nationalist Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica was on the verge of collapse over the offer, a one-of-a-kind deal tendered as a sweetener to Serbia because EU members cannot agree to offer it a full pre-membership accord.

A last-minute decision by the EU to postpone the signing ceremony scheduled for Thursday looked unlikely to heal the fundamental rift this has exposed over Serbia's central objective -- preservation of Kosovo or EU membership.

One nationalist minister warned pro-EU Deputy Prime Minister Bozidar Djelic he would be a "traitor" if he signed such a deal.

Kostunica has not appeared in public since his pro-EU coalition partner and rival, President Boris Tadic, won re-election at the weekend by a margin so narrow it underlined the deep split in Serbia's electorate.

He has issued two statements, one on Monday saying the EU "political agreement" was a trap that Serbia would never sign, and a second on Wednesday saying parliament must meet to quell political disunity.

Full story

ww.reuters.com...