What Happened to THE TRUTH???

Jesus, that charctor from history that so many of you hold to such high esteam, in his personal studies of the documentation of the historic record of "God" recorded in form of books, didn't just study the "Thora".

Jesus, this charactor you hold in such high esteam, studied from a libary of scrolls, many many works that ranged throughout topics and times.

Jesus Quoted the book of Enoch directly, yet this book was not included in "the bible".

In 325 the councel of niseia headed by constatine decieded to inclose books and reject books. Now these books were not rejected by this charactor Jesus you think is so great. Why is it you feel the "bible" is good enough for you when it wasn't good enough for Jesus?

Originally posted by Incarnated

Jesus, that charctor from history that so many of you hold to such high esteam, in his personal studies of the documentation of the historic record of "God" recorded in form of books, didn't just study the "Thora".

Jesus, this charactor you hold in such high esteam, studied from a libary of scrolls, many many works that ranged throughout topics and times.

Jesus Quoted the book of Enoch directly, yet this book was not included in "the bible".

In 325 the councel of niseia headed by constatine decieded to inclose books and reject books. Now these books were not rejected by this charactor Jesus you think is so great. Why is it you feel the "bible" is good enough for you when it wasn't good enough for Jesus?

First, get some facts straight and stop contradicting yourself.

You write that Jesus is a character from history yet you also write that because he read other books Christians should not hold the Bible as Gods word? So is Jesus just a "character from history" in which case your post is totally pointless or is Jesus real but not God Incarnate, just some enlightened guy who said stuff in which again your post is totally pointless??

How could Jesus quote from Enoch when He is just a character from history?

You seem to have some enlightened insight into this Jesus guy. Just what books did He read from and what's your source for this information?

Is it "Thora" or "Tora" or perhaps "Torah"??

You mean the Council of Nicea or Nicaea, correct? Please show me where this council had the sole authority to remove books based on their own votes or rather did they come together to protect and canonize Scripture that was already accepted as God breathed among the body of Christ??

In other words these councils came together to weed out heresy and heretical writings. They did not have a conspiracy together to keep only the books they themselves wanted for their own personal agenda.

The Book of Enoch is a strange one. I was not aware that Jesus quoted from Enoch but I know Jude, His half brother, did. But if you look at the Old Testament, other noncanonical books are referenced strictly for content- not doctrine. The Jews, while writing their Biblical books, often cited external biblical documents in their libraries. It was not an endorsement of the books- just a reference. I think it was the same for the Book of Enoch.

The Book of Enoch was never believed to have been anything but a pseudographical text. I don't think anyone actually believed Enoch was the author as he lived in antedeluvian times but the book was not penned until second century B.C. It was never supposed to be a "Bible book" for Biblical doctrine but simply a piece of Rabbinical literature that probably has some truth to it but was never considered inspired.

Also, I never understood why so many criticize Judaism and Christianity for having canonized religious texts. Look at the religions that don't have an official cannon but consistently add new writings and books into their faiths. Christianity and Judaism do not do this.

But as to the canonization council. The Old Testament was easy: It was simply the Hebrew Tanakh (the Hebrew "Bible"). As for the New Testament Books, nothing was picked arbitrarily. It was rigorous and the texts and their history were examined thoroughly.

The books had to be written by the author it was claimed to have been written by (no pseudographical texts allowed). The authorships also had to be testified to early eye witnesses such as Polycarp or Clement. It really wasn't too much of a difficult task. They simply referenced the writings of the original eye witnesses who knew what books were authentic and which ones were not. This is all recorded in the works of the 1st and 2nd century witnesses that still survive to our time. Even the minutes from the council and canonization process still exist and anyone can look at them.

Pretty interesting stuff. It was done to counter all the false heresies and people trying to distort the faith with Gnosticism and apostate teachings. I'm glad they made a canon, did it with diligence, and went by the testimony of the original apostles and eye witness founders.

It was not a matter of a bunch of controlling people getting together in the 4th century and arbitrarily picked a bunch of books that sounded good or fit together. There was a standard they followed and rightfully so.

What happened to the Truth? It's right in front of you. Open your eyes and your heart to receiving it rather than focusing on what you don't understand. If you do that, what you don't understand will be made clear.

Proverbs 3:5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

The Almighty God, the Creator of all that we can see and what we can't see, is certainly more than capable of seeing that what is meant to be in the Bible, IS in the Bible.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by ReginaAdonnaAaron]

aaahhh said the blind man as he pissed into the wind, "it's all coming back to me now!"...

Open my eyes! LOL

You believe in the idology of the "rapture", that is a LIE of the modern church and you're telling me to open my eyes?

What about these quotes?

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (II Tim 3:16)


that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1 Corinthians 2:5

Seems like people only pull these up when they defend the bible or what they think is what God wants via the bible. Therefore it's as if people think God is a book and brings meaning to the words "you only see in black and white".

Originally posted by Shawn B.
What about these quotes?

(II Tim 3:16)

1 Corinthians 2:5

What are private letters by men who Jesus himself said didn't understand, that now christ stains think are gospel?

Was that the daily double?

Jesus didn't say that about Paul, because he didn't know him well he was alive.

When he said that though it was at atime when they didn't understand that doesn't mean they never came to a understanding.

Plus, these letters were written when Paul was trying to understand Jesus better. To bad we don't ever here the replies to the letters.







[edit on 21-1-2008 by Shawn B.]

The attempts to ridicule people of christian beliefs by poking fun after each question reveals the obvious intentions of your statements. It is impossible to have a pragmatic or conclusive discussion with these ever so present over tones. Why dont you call people on the telephone and yell at everybody? NO ANSWERS WILL BE REVEALED IF THE ONE WHO ASKS THE QUESTIONS IS SO CLOSE MINDED. Whether or not you believe he was or is the messiah is your business, it is also mine to belive the witness of the people around him inspires people to do good things. I believe that if mankind doesn't let go of their small differences in opinon and take all evidence into account no progress in civilization can follow him. I believe in evolution, I also believe it could have divine influences. some facts may be exaggerated or added to benefit individuals but I also believe some could have been taken out including his own testimony to prevent him from appearing to be to human. Regardless texts by normal historians are edited and changed all the time and you seem to accept them as fact. The good book has changed alot of peoples lives and I will not ridicule them or someone they idolize for my own personal satisfaction. But it doesn't seem you are open to logical discussion as you have already expressed you unwillingness to accept any opinion but you own. ALL PEOPLE NEED TO AGREE TO DISAGREE on somethings and I agree these books might have had a better impact without censorship but that doesn't change the fact that the principles of the bible aren't spiritual and moral truths

Spiritualism stems from the fact that some things are morally wrong and human feelings seperate from animals and also can be attributed to making us intelligent and the record of these moral truths cannot be ignored because somebody tinkered with them take or leave what you want from the bible But don't try to ridicule people for making connections of what is stated in the bible and what occurs today as being morally wrong. Information about what is proven to be added or removed is always helpful as is discussion of it. But personal attacks against other people are detrimental to fact finding and dilutes your intentions.

Originally posted by azblack
Whether or not you believe he was or is the messiah is your business, it is also mine to belive the witness of the people around him inspires people to do good things.

What are you going on about sir? Did you even read the thread before responding? I'm thinking maybe not. Maybe you think you read the tread but didn't really. I'm thinking you only seen what you wanted to see. This must be the case as I in no tone or way discredit "the messiah". In fact I suport the acceptance of "Jesus".

The Thread had to do with books that Jesus studied being removied (excluded) and being made unavilable to you via "the Church". The chruch also spawns off ignorant "Christ Stains", that have no understanding of Christ or his workings. The type that might not read something before responding in hate and haste.

I must respond to your post not to argue but to agree that I was out of line for taking comments you exerted so personally. I felt the way the comments such, christ stain, and the manner they were posted were intended just to prod angry responses from christian people. Again I apologize for an extra long rant which discussed no valid points. Please don't hold this as a testament to the way I educate -myself- of unknown truths, my anger simply reduced my intelligence temporarily.I'll try to move on.

I often wonder why Christians, who prize ultimate knowledge of Jesus and his valued teachings, allow certain authorities to withold information from them. I believe the vatican does hold certain documents and is travesty and should be considered a lie to it's own people. Also in this discussion of truths or information I find a certain intrest in whether or not valuable information was lost in the fires of Alexandria, Egypt. I know this occured prior to jesus birth, but wonder if some of this info was knowledge during his time, and was susbsequently censored, with held or deemed inaccurate.

I have said in other threads that He was somewhat of a rebel to traditionalist religious entitys, and can't help but conclude some of his teachings and knowledge use to surmass them were deemed dangerous to those who wished exert control over the masses of the time period. His story inof itself is a testament to how mankind is incapable of judging people based on relgious scrutiny, if not only because these ideals take different meanings for each individual.

I've not personally read the book of Enoch and have heard of it; but only recently. I plead to you, if have knowledge of any others that directly influenced his teachings, please divugle them here. Deepest apologies

reply to post by azblack



Hey, thanks. No need be sorry. Just words, we speak and communicate better when we stay objective.

I use both terms "Christ Stains" and Christians.

When the christ returns, this is what will be found. Don't fool yourself into thinking everyone that calls themself "Christian" are worthy of that name. Although you seem worthy of that idolarary term, there are a vast seemingly majority of people that would better be termed Chist Stains.

I use the term Christ Stains as I, although by no means a "christian", understand the value of the charactor of the Chosen one of God our Father. I believe everyone should respect our father's Christ, but there is a good majority that can't see past the foolish and selfrightous actions of too many people that call themselves christians, but are not, and it is those people that are STAINS on the Christ of our God.

They not being able to enter into the kingdom act in such a way as to fool others from wanting to go. Those are the Christ Stains I speak of.

Sure you might not feel it is your place to judge, but I've known dozzens of Christians that were well aware of who the stains where in their church.

Originally posted by AshleyD
The Book of Enoch is a strange one. I was not aware that Jesus quoted from Enoch but I know Jude, His half brother, did.

It could also be quite probable that the book called 'enoch' just happens to contain the same quote that Jude would have quoted from something handed down orally.

Something similar to Psalm 114:4 is in the book somewhere too. Can't remember exactly, it's been awhile.

I can say that some of those, along with the quran have the same spirit as the author. Certainly not the creator, but good luck showing them that.

Originally posted by Incarnated

Jesus, that charctor from history that so many of you hold to such high esteam, in his personal studies of the documentation of the historic record of "God" recorded in form of books, didn't just study the "Thora".

Jesus, this charactor you hold in such high esteam, studied from a libary of scrolls, many many works that ranged throughout topics and times.

Jesus Quoted the book of Enoch directly, yet this book was not included in "the bible".

In 325 the councel of niseia headed by constatine decieded to inclose books and reject books. Now these books were not rejected by this charactor Jesus you think is so great. Why is it you feel the "bible" is good enough for you when it wasn't good enough for Jesus?

Hi,
I see you are once again misinforming ATS....this time with 'What is the TRUTH???
In 325 'council of Nicea.....firstly Constantine did no such thing!
Since this is not about what was discussed in 325 'Council of Nicea......I will not go into that!
(thanks to member 'Silversmith' for pointing this out)

The Book of Enoch............quote from the Book of Enoch ''Wisdom went forth to make her dwelling among the children of men, and found no dwelling place
Wisdom returned to her place, and took her seat among the angels (1 Enoch 42)
Who or what is Wisdom in the Book of Enoch?
WISDOM is another LOGOS of God!

Margaret Barker: Where Shall Wisdom Be Found?
Where shall WISDOM be found?

IX
helen

Hi I'm new. So maybe it's just me, but I don't understand your questions or your point. I can say that for those who believe in the Word of God/Yahshuah (Jesus) we believe and accept that the canon was written by men who were filled and guided by the Holy Spirit. God was very much present when the book was put together. If there are pieces missing from or added to the Bible then I'd suggest reading the last page of Revelation for what happens. You and me need not concern ourselves with this though, we put our trust and faith in Him and He covers the rest

Also what's it really matter at the end of the day that the book of Enoch is missing? Is there not enough for you included in the Gospel? Salvation through the Blood of The Lamb is really all we ever need to know. When you have THAT understanding and belief, you have ALL you could ever have plus more........

reply to post by Elisha4Yah



Very nice Elisha. What you've spoken is true enough. However my point is this.

Some or Many people when study or researching this whole Jesus Deal are not satisfied with the 23minutes of his life contained in the bible. So they wish to go out and read more.

Some foolishly read modern day autors that drivel on and on beating around the bush as if they know what it is they are talking about based around that 23minutes.

However for those that truly want to go deeper in the spiritual understandings, nothing is a good to read outside the bible as those very scriptures that jesus himself read. Wouldn't you agree with that?

And also it could very easily be argued that the consepts of understanding in the documentation of the "bible" have been lost because of the lack of the suporting documents.

When you start to read and study the lost and hidden documents more things are clearly understood on a personal level. There is less room more gross misunderstandings and wild inturpetations.


[edit on 25-1-2008 by Incarnated]

Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
If there are pieces missing from or added to the Bible then I'd suggest reading the last page of Revelation for what happens.

That's actually for Revelation not the bible. The bible is a collection of books. When it says anyone who alters this book it means Revelation not the bible. Revelation was a separate book and the ending only applied to it and not the other books that were all separate at one time too.

People forget that the bibe is a collection of books, which is why there are "errors".

The bible is still perfect though.

Originally posted by Shawn B.
The bible is still perfect though.

I can put gas on the bible and it burns. So the book is not perfect.

What do you mean by that generic statement?

What is the bible perfect according to?

What do you think I mean?LOL

It's perfect.