RARE WTC IMAGE+VID: Whats Causing this Black Smoke at the Base?

reply to post by thedman
Your information on the elevators and shafts is accurate and agrees with my findings.

At least 2 cars (#6 and #50) were reported to have fallen to the basement in WTC1 after their cables were broken so there definitely were paths for some of the estimated 7000 gallons of jet fuel to get down to the lowest levels.

Wasn't that car #50 the one where the emergency brakes stopped it between floors and the occupants had to break their way through the sheetrock shaft wall to escape?

reply to post by Pilgrum


Seem to be confusing 2 incidents - Arturo Griffith in Car 50 which plunged
into basement after impact and window washer Jan Demczur who was
with several others when elevator jammed in shaft on 50th floor. Used
Demczur's squeege to cut open sheetrock wall to escape.

50th floor elevator
Before it reached its first landing, the building shook, and the elevator swung from side to side. After about 10 minutes, an announcement was made about an explosion, then went eerily quiet. Smoke entered the cabin. The passengers pried open the car doors, using Demczur's squeegee, only to be faced with a wall. They were on the 50th floor, not a stop for this elevator

50th floor Elevator, with Demczur
George S. Phoeniz III:
Then I smelled smoke. This changed things. We had to get out. I got out my handkerchief and covered my nose and mouth. Then I remembered that it was better to wet it so I dipped it in my milk. I suggested to the others to do the same. We pried open the doors again and laid down the window-washer's pole to keep the door open. It was the perfect size. Now we started kicking the hell out of the wall in front of us. It was no use. It was sheetrock, a.k.a. plasterboard or drywall, in 2 feet wide sections with a steel frame around it. It hardly moved. We would have to dig through it.

reply to post by thedman
Yes - that's the one
I recall the TV interview and them telling the story of their very lucky escape.

Arturo Griffith was in elevator 50 and the cables on his car were sheared. It fell 15 to 16 floors before the brakes caught at the B1 floor. He was knocked out and trapped by debris inside the stopped elevator. He was then pulled out of the debris by people, and told those people of the woman passenger still in the elevator. Those people went in the elevator and saved the woman passenger...and then a fireball came down the elevator shaft.

Please note that no fireball or cascading fire stream was involved in the freefall portion of elevator 50 at the time of impact. Also, please note that the fireball that hit the top of the elevator after Arturo and the woman passenger's rescue could not be the FAE from the initial impact due to the amount of time that passed from impact to rescue of two people from the elevator. And also please note that the elevator is at B1 level when this fireball comes from above it.

Arturo's wife, Carmen, was in elevator 6 on her way down from the top floors when her elevator stopped at floor 78 due to the impact. Please note that no fireball from either above or below was involved in the damage to the elevator - which held her and multiple other passengers. Carmen could not get the doors open and the passengers had to assist in prying open the doors. It was not until after the doors were pried open and Carmen stepped out of the elevator onto the 78th floor that a "ball of fire rolled through the HALLWAY" (not the elevator shaft). Again, this fireball could not be the FAE from the impact because of the amount of time that had passed since impact.

web.archive.org...://911digitalarchive.org/seiu/details/54

So that takes care of both of these elevators in WTC 1. We can, without a doubt, state that no fireball created by the FAE of impact rushed down as far as the lobby through either of these elevator shafts because they had elevators of survivors in both shafts.


[edit on 1-26-2008 by Valhall]

reply to post by Valhall

Thanks for that link to the original story.

I noted the observation of thick black smoke in abundance. Is it possible that liquid jet fuel and smoke progressed that far before the vapour was ignited by the fires above causing the fireball that propagated down the shaft?

reply to post by Pilgrum


Doubtfully, It would have burned out way before it reached the bottom IMO.

I saw another video like this . If i can find it i will post it . It sure was odd at the time.


[edit on 26-1-2008 by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR]

Originally posted by Pilgrum
reply to post by Valhall

 

Thanks for that link to the original story.

I noted the observation of thick black smoke in abundance. Is it possible that liquid jet fuel and smoke progressed that far before the vapour was ignited by the fires above causing the fireball that propagated down the shaft?

Actually, no to the liquid jet fuel, and highly unlikely to the vapor (since it would have tended to rise instead of fall). The liquid fuel could be ignited by some source, but it would burn, not cause an FAE. I'm unsure of what caused the secondary fireballs they experienced. Not saying it couldn't happen as a secondary effect to the impact, but we have to come up with how, because an FAE requires a very narrow band of fuel (atomized fuel) to air mixture.

I was thinking in terms an un-ignited quantity of jet-fuel splashing into all sorts of places which would take a little time for the vapours from evaporation to reach a stoichometric mix capable of explosive flash ignition. Jet fuel is basicly highly processed kerosene and not all that flammable in liquid form but the vapours are quite different if permitted to collect in enclosed spaces.

reply to post by Pilgrum


Okay, let's talk about this looking at two factors:

1. Explosive
2. Vapors

First jet fuel is a high-octane, extremely "anti-explosive" fuel compared to say a very low-octane explosive fuel like diesel...hence the reason the truck bomb that blew up in OKC was diesel and ammonium nitrate instead of jet fuel and ammonium nitrate. So by nature, it takes a lot of energy to get it to explode.

Second, it is an extremely stable fuel because it has a very low vapor pressure...which means it doesn't want to evaporate and it doesn't want to create vapors.

Third, vapors can flash and not explode. The only time a gaseous flammable will cause an "explosion" is when you confine it against expansion, OR you create the unique situation of an FAE (which basically still requires a confinement, but its in a more complex manner that that is stated).

When you add those three together you have to come up with a situation where you have jet fuel trapped in a contained space (where its vapors cannot be allowed to expand), heating up, evaporating and then either heating to the point that it self-ignites due to temperature, is compressed so much it eventually self-ignites, or has an ignition source applied to it while still within a compressed and confined space.

While one would be completely stupid to make a statement like "that never could have happened" - the odds are very low that that could have happened.


[edit on 1-26-2008 by Valhall]

reply to post by Valhall
Thanks
We're in agreement about the properties of jet fuel which does make it difficult to factor in how those fireballs came about. If there was a cloud of hot kerosene vapour wafting around I would have expected to see eyewitness reports about the smell - it's very hard to mistake it.

I'm still not prepared to leap into ideas of secondary devices being the source.

I would like to continue this discussion if anybody is interested. I'm continuing to seek an explanation for the explosion in the basement at the B4 level (for that matter the explosions at the lobby level, but for now, I'll center on B4).

There was only ONE elevator that serviced the B4 level and also traversed the floor levels of impact in WTC 1. Only ONE - there was only ONE elevator. Arturo and his passenger were in that elevator - Freight Elevator 50 - at the time of the impact and the fireball. So we can rule out any "explosive energy" travelling down a elevator shaft that serviced B4 and causing the damage in the basement because Arturo and company were in the way of that happening.

So - I'd like to ask again, what caused the collapse in the B4 level?

reply to post by Valhall
From William Rodriguez's CNN interview on the afternoon of 9/11:

I was in the basement which is a support floor for the maintenance company and we hear like a big rumble, not like an impact, like a rumble, like something, like moving furniture on a, on a massive way and all of a sudden we hear another rumble and a guy comes running, running into our office and all his skin was off his body,all his skin. We, we went crazy, we started screaming, we told him to get out.

From the statement he made at the NIST public meeting in 2004:

The fire, the ball of fire, for example, I was in the basement when the first plane hit the building. And at that moment, I thought it was an electrical generator that blew up at that moment. A person comes running into the office saying explosion, explosion, explosion. When I look at this guy; has all his skin pulled off of his body. Hanging from the top of his fingertips like it was a glove. And I said, what happened? He said the elevators. What happened was the ball of fire went down with such a force down the elevator shaft on the 58th – freight elevator, the biggest freight elevator that we have in the North Tower, it went out with such a force that it broke the cables. It went down, I think seven flights. The person survived because he was pulled from the B3 level. But this person, being in front of the doors waiting for the elevator, practically got his skin vaporized.

There's an account from Mike Pecoraro who was in sub-basement 6
here
specifically mentioning the smell of kerosene and white vapour.

[edit on 3/2/2008 by Pilgrum]

Okay, let's take this testimony and use it for what it is worth.

First look: We will assume that what Mr. Rodriguez states concerning the fireball making it passed Arturo's elevator car is correct. Keep in mind that this requires the fireball to pass around the elevator that Arturo is in without burning him or his passenger - because they did not experience any burns.

1. Mr. Rodriguez was not up in the elevator shaft when the impact occurred, so his speculation that explosive impact on the car is what snapped the cable has to be taken as that - speculation.

2. All reports state the cable was sheared by the impact, not pulled in two. And consider the energy it would require to pull the cable apart in tension versus the energy required to shear it. From a physical standpoint, the shear theory holds much more water.

3. Okay, so we will take the account of the person who was standing at the elevator doors and was burned by a fireball that came out of them...and in this first pass, we will assume that fireball is the same fireball at impact and that it "went around" Arturo's elevator without burning him and then exited the elevator doors on the B4 level. Do you see the problem we have here? The fire that came out of the B4 elevator doors was NOT an explosion - it was a fireball. If it had been an explosion that could cause collapses in the B4 area, then the man standing directly in front of the elevator door would have been killed. Because you can't cause part of a structure to collapse and not cause percussive damage to a person that is at the nearest point to the source of the explosion.

Now, second view:

1. On this look we will take Mr. Rodriguez's testimony, but we will consider that he may NOT be talking about a fireball that was caused by the impact.

2. Arturo states that after the cables sheared he fell to about the B2 level and him and his passenger were trapped. Some people on the B2 level extracted him, and he told them there was another passenger, and then they went in the elevator and removed the passenger. Only AFTER that does Arturo state that explosion occurs that impacts the empty elevator.

3. So...is Mr. Rodriguez describing the impact fireball or the fireball that occurs after the extraction of the passengers in F.E. 50???

Either way - the fireball that burned the man waiting to enter the elevator cannot be the source of the collapses that occured in the basement.

reply to post by Valhall
Mike Pecoraro is the one who made the statement about the missing press and also mentions the 300lb firedoor that was blown off its tracks on the B level. Trouble there is he doesn't indicate which way it was blown apart from the fact it was on the floor and 'wrinkled up like a piece of aluminum foil' and I'd tend to assume there'd be firestairs on the exit side...

Exactly, Pilgrum. This is the extensive damage I am trying to account for, and have been trying to account for for at least 2 years.

Are we in agreement that with Arturo's elevator at about Floor 13, and the basement levels described by Mr. Pecoraro being as far as 17 floors below that point (i.e. in excess of 170 feet further below), that any explosion down the elevator shaft that could cause the level of damage Mr. Pecoraro describes, would have done far more to Mr. Arturo's elevator than has been described?

Are we in agreement that if one is to speculate an FAE transfer down the elevator shaft that it would NECESSARILY become less energetic the further it traveled? So it should have had far more energy for destruction 170 feet up in the elevator where Mr. Arturo was at the time of impact than it would have 170 feet below in the basement.

reply to post by Valhall
Yes - very puzzling
That places the source of the explosion in the vicinity of the parking garage or the machine shop with the blast propagating via the firestairs and possibly elevator shafts to cause the secondary effects like the fireball and the firedoor on the floor above. And it smelt like kerosene?

At least in my country, the elevators don't fall down even the cable is cut and the car is wholly loose on the shaft. They have emergency design that prevents liftcars from falling free.

Originally posted by v01i0
At least in my country, the elevators don't fall down even the cable is cut and the car is wholly loose on the shaft. They have emergency design that prevents liftcars from falling free.

Well, the brakes actually did eventually catch. The elevator fell about 15 floors and then they caught.

Originally posted by Pilgrum

Yes - very puzzling
That places the source of the explosion in the vicinity of the parking garage or the machine shop with the blast propagating via the firestairs and possibly elevator shafts to cause the secondary effects like the fireball and the firedoor on the floor above. And it smelt like kerosene?

Yeah, makes you start speculating on an OKC type truck bomb or such. With the extensive damage to the parking area, you can't help but consider that as one of the more obvious causes.

reply to post by Valhall
It can't be ruled out but I still wonder what the purpose of such a device would be as it would be relatively small compared to the scale of what was going on upstairs and not large enough to be a threat to the structure itself IE nuisance value compared to the risks involved in actually getting it set up.