The Holes in Christianity and Judaism Vol. II

As many of you know I am a Christian but I am also a skeptic. I have been having the same question go through my head for quite some time now.

The first book of the Bible was written in 1450 B.C. by Moses but the first human writings ever discovered were from 3200-3300 B.C. So the question I have is pretty simple why would the God spoke of in the Bible wait so long to let himself be known to his people? Why did God let his people go without his word for 1500 years after mankind was capable of writing before he inspired the first book of the Bible?

Also before Judaism came to be, the father religion of Christianity, there were many other religions practiced by the people of the world such as Hinduism, Greek Mythology, and Egyptian Mythology. It�s amazing to me to think that people once truly believed in the Gods of Mount Olympus and lived there lives by them. Now that is a dead religion and now only remembered as false but once it was the truth. Why would God allow people to believe in something totally different from him without intervening to show himself to them? Why would God allow so many different Religions to pop up before he introduced himself to mankind?

Think of the American Indians, they lived in North America until the 1400�s unaffected by the Christianity movement in Europe until they were converted by the white man. Now the Christian view on matters is that whoever does not know Jesus as their lord and saviour is doomed to Hell. So all the Indians that lived in North America that died prior to the introduction of Christianity went to Hell? That just don�t seem like what a benevolent God would have to happen does it? The American Indians were capable of writing why didn�t god just inspire one of them to write a copy of the Bible as well? Why did God leave the Indians to a fate of Eternal Damnation by Ignorance?

I am not God and I do not know what God was thinking when he did all of the above but it sure doesn�t seem like what an omniscient God would do for his beloved children. What happened to Adam and Eve did they not teach their children who their creator was? It seems so hard to believe that God allowed people to worship other Gods before him and did not even let them know who he was until many had already died and gone to hell.

My Final Thought on the matter. Remember David Koresh of the Branch Davidian Compound in Waco Texas? He was the leader of a Cult called the Davidians and he said that he was the Christ and the only way to Salvation was through him. We all considered this guy a nut case and wrote him off but think about Moses, Joshua, Ezra, Job, and even Jesus. What if these people were all just off their rockers and running around spitting out garbage. What if everything that we believe in is nothing more than the insane rantings of delusional men?

You never know in 2000 years Christianity may be thought of to be mythology and Davidians may be the principle religion of the world and the only way to the father is through David Koresh.

I must say, I have thought greatly about these things, which is why I am agonistic (not sure ifi that's the right word), or even god-believing, just not 'God' as the Christian sense, or in any religious sense.
Another crucial question is why we no longer 'hear' from him on such a scale as before, if at all.
Cities like Babylon are no longer destroyed, Jews and Christians die daily, the Muslims are still here despite numerous 'holy wars' against them

Originally posted by BlackJackal
As many of you know I am a Christian but I am also a skeptic. I have been having the same question go through my head for quite some time now.

The first book of the Bible was written in 1450 B.C. by Moses but the first human writings ever discovered were from 3200-3300 B.C. So the question I have is pretty simple why would the God spoke of in the Bible wait so long to let himself be known to his people? Why did God let his people go without his word for 1500 years after mankind was capable of writing before he inspired the first book of the Bible?

The Torah, Quran, and the Gospels have one thing in common. They were all oral traditions before they were written down. Passed down from generation to generation. Think of it like the everlasting vibration. I think God is a lot deeper than some words on a page.

Originally posted by BlackJackal
Think of the American Indians, they lived in North America until the 1400�s unaffected by the Christianity movement in Europe until they were converted by the white man. Now the Christian view on matters is that whoever does not know Jesus as their lord and saviour is doomed to Hell. So all the Indians that lived in North America that died prior to the introduction of Christianity went to Hell? That just don�t seem like what a benevolent God would have to happen does it? The American Indians were capable of writing why didn�t god just inspire one of them to write a copy of the Bible as well? Why did God leave the Indians to a fate of Eternal Damnation by Ignorance?

I don't think so the Indian�s had a better understanding of spirituality and the earth than the white man did(i.e. the world is flat). They lived in harmony with their surroundings. They didn't have a written language until the 1800's when a man(sorry the name escapes me right now) created the first language for the Cherokee. And from what I remember they are the only native people with there own unique language.

[Edited on 12-2-2004 by DaTruth]

But if they were oral traditions then why did God allow many people of the world to be condenmed to Hell because they never heard this things?

I am not attacking you just playing the devils advocate

Originally posted by BlackJackal
But if they were oral traditions then why did God allow many people of the world to be condenmed to Hell because they never heard this things?

I am not attacking you just playing the devils advocate

I know I like a good debate...Back to your question. Hell was made up by the "Holy" Roman Catholic church to scare people and get money. Why would God punish people for eternity??? Your supposed to learn something from a punishment. Eternal damnation??? You can't learn anything from that. Jews don't believe in Hell. At least not the same way the Christians do.

If you show your love of God threw your action then you will receive the kingdom of God. A murder, theft and rapist can believe that Jesus is God but there not showing it threw there actions. So what you believe don't mean a damn thing. It how you use your beliefs to imprint this planet called earth. Of course this is just my opinion, but hey it�s gotten me this far.

Datruth,

Those are very good points.

But, why did so many people abandon those oral traditions and form their own religions and Gods to worship rather than sticking to the God they already knew? Why is it that the many people of the world have never even heard of the God of the Bible? Why would God allow children(basically completly innocent) born to parents who turned away from him to never know who he was?

Originally posted by BlackJackal
Datruth,

Those are very good points.

But, why did so many people abandon those oral traditions and form their own religions and Gods to worship rather than sticking to the God they already knew? Why is it that the many people of the world have never even heard of the God of the Bible? Why would God allow children(basically completly innocent) born to parents who turned away from him to never know who he was?

To tell you the truth I don't know. I think it is corruption. These word are powerful things and in the hand of some men they are dangerous. They can manipulate them so that they can control the hearts and minds of the masses. Power, this is the flaw of man. However the truth always comes out because God speaks through his prophets and messengers (i.e. Moses, Arron, Daniel, Jesus, Mohammad).

I think it's like a test almost. Those who are pure of heart and mind have a feeling inside them that what they are taught is wrong so they go out and try to find the truth for themselves, with the help of the Most High guiding them. I think that this makes them appreciate it even more.

I think many cultures believe in the God of the bible they just called it by different names. Like the Indians they were very spiritual. Some many say that they believed in many Gods but I beg to differ. They believed in many sprits but also believed in Raven the creator. Look at it like this, the Christians believe in God yet they believe in Angels and Demons. From a perspective of someone who isn't familiar with Christianity wouldn't theses be considered "God-like" sprits?

I think that the Most High and truth are universal. Some people just describe then different. Hope this answers your question.

"Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles."

People want a god that fits into a box, that's why they would abandon a God their ancestors knew. Divinely human forms on Mount Olypus or a statue of a six armed dude to sit on your shelf...people want something they can wrap their little minds around. The One God cannot be wrapped around by our feable minds. Even the Israelites, not long removed by the hand of God from Egypt, adopted the fertility cults of the Caananites because they seemed more graspable and relevant.

But the Israelites new better. I think if you look back to the Romans passage (I quoted above, Ch.1), God says his eternal power and divine nature are known to all men because he has revealed himself in the world. I think we are all accountable for seaking him, trying to find him, and trying to please him to the level that we know him. If someone has never been told about the person of Jesus Christ and his work, I have to believe that God will not condemn him simply for that. I think a just God, like a just Teacher, will only test on the material given.

I don't write the rules for God. But I trust him to be loving and to be just because that is his eternal nature. I can't say which "heathens" might make it in under my definition of grace and juctice. I suspect a pigmi who honors truthfullness, does his best to live holy, and who seeks communion with a God he may not know by name might make it. I suspect one who routinely rapes and pillages his neighbor tribe and practices child sacrifice will not. But for those of us in the west, I think we all know enough and have answers available enough to be completely without excuse in the matter.

That's my $.02. There are Christian brothers I love who agree with me, and Christian brothers I love who would disagree.

Originally posted by BlackJackal
So the question I have is pretty simple why would the God spoke of in the Bible wait so long to let himself be known to his people?

Enochian tradition traces it's roots back to Enoch, seventh son of Adam, who according to tradition received the original Alef Bet, and was the first person to ever write something down. However the original book of Enoch, often refered to as, or believed to be the Book of Raziel or the Book of Eternal Wisdom, or the Spark of Heaven etc. is lost today. It is believed to be the original book of the mystical Kabbala.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 12-2-2004 by Hamilton]

Hinduism,

Hindu philosophy ( Vedas ) was written 4000 years ago. The Enuma Elish was written in 600 BC, thier have always been writings before Moses. Also, does the Enuma Elish seem vaugely similar to Genesis?

Deep

Originally posted by BlackJackal
But, why did so many people abandon those oral traditions and form their own religions and Gods to worship rather than sticking to the God they already knew? Why is it that the many people of the world have never even heard of the God of the Bible? Why would God allow children(basically completly innocent) born to parents who turned away from him to never know who he was?

The part about being condemned to Hell if you don't worship God in the right way is Christian, not Jewish. Judaism makes allowances for people who were not born to the �correct� tradition.

If you read the Old Testament you see a progression. The religion practiced by Abraham isn�t the same as practiced by Moses, which is different from the law laid down in Leviticus which changes again in Deuteronomy. From this we can imply that the worship of God is fluid and changes with time; that as humanity changes so does God�s expectations from humanity. In Christianity this progression continues with the establishment of the new covenant with Christ. In Judaism, we see this with the transformation from the Jewish priesthood to Rabbinic Judaism.

So does God forsake those who do not know him? Well, if you look at the Old Testament, God�s relationship with Abraham and his people, you see that while God works through this tiny group of people, He�s still the God of all people. Through his relationship with Abraham he creates a nation, through that nation he brings himself to the world. When the world is ready, something else happens.

Right now your questions come from looking at a work in progress but expecting a finished product. The key is to understand that the work isn�t finished, to do your part, and to trust in God to look after the big picture.

Originally posted by Blacktron
"Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles."

And you don't think christians don't do this when they worship Jesus. He clearly states that you should worship God the Father. I think this is just like the native people using "birds and animals and reptiles."

I suspect a pigmi who honors truthfullness, does his best to live holy, and who seeks communion with a God he may not know by name might make it.

Christans don't even know "Jesus" real name so I hope God dosn't hold it against them.


[Edited on 13-2-2004 by DaTruth]

Originally posted by Mycroft
Right now your questions come from looking at a work in progress but expecting a finished product. The key is to understand that the work isn�t finished, to do your part, and to trust in God to look after the big picture.

Amen to that!!!!!!!

Mycroft,

I think that is a very good explanation. Thank You very much.

Firstly, David Koresh never claimed to be Christ.. He claimed to be the "final prophet" of the book of Revelation..

According to David Koresh, Christ's time had come and went. Koresh believed that he was the establisher of the third covenant. If you really want to make sense of the Waco tragedy, I suggest you go to the Branch Davidians site and read it for yourself... False accusations is why 80+ people died in Waco... Deny ignorance.

Seven Seals

Why?

Because Yahweh is far from being the one and only god. His followers adhere to that belief because it makes them feel privileged, special, "chosen." THat this god - or his followers, at least - think they have a say over the people o other gods is some pretty big hubris.

The classic understanding is a misunderstanding is what I'm finding out.

The Bible does teach that there were lesser God under Yahweh.
We call them Angels but the Hebrew scriptures call them Gods.
There was a Divine Council set up by Yahweh and he kept the Jews as his own with Micheal as their Arch Angel.

If you want real knowledge on this please read this paper by Dr Micheal Heiser
an ancient language scholar, he will prove it is Biblical, even if it flies in the face of traditional understanding.

Introduction to the Divine Council

This concept bothered me at first too - it's not really polytheistic - you have to read it before you judge.