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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
I'll bet I'm on that disinformant list as well. If someone makes a bizarre claim or says something out of the ordinary is going to happen I think I have the right to question it and see if it has any basis in reality. What I see time and time again here on the hallowed pages of ATS is people making ridiculous claims and then attacking those who ask for proof. Wasn't it Carl Sagan who said extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof?
The previous week I had sent Richard copies of some of my papers, published in peer-reviewed journals, so that he could look at the data.
Richard seemed uneasy and said, “I don’t want to discuss evidence”. “Why not?” I asked. “There isn’t time. It’s too complicated. And that’s not what this programme is about.”
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by rich23
Newton's theories continue to work fine after more than three hundred years and they will continue to work. There are cases where relativity must be accounted for (e.g. the GPS system)
Consider them approximations if you must but in science the term law has a specific meaning, as does the term theory.
It isn't fair to link physical science to things involving the human psyche.
If you can't, at some point, say "under these conditions, this will always happen" it isn't science.
I don't believe it will ever be possible to do this (prove me wrong ).
I'm not saying psychology (or even parapsychology) has no value, just that there is no way to nail down human behavior (or that other stuff) to the rigors of physical science.
You'll notice I don't often, if ever, get involved with this sort of discussion
because in the end it is usual only a matter of personal perception and opinion. There is nothing to discuss.
At the risk of being oxymoronic, I have faith in physical science.
New, ground breaking concepts have always been subject to close scrutiny.
As I said, that is the way science works. The concepts with value do rise to the surface if they can survive the scrutiny.
IF the post is bizarre then it deserves to be scrutinized by all.
What Sky is stating is that when people don't just question but do so without even trying to discuss the topic fairly. They attack and belittle with the sole intent to destroy a thread.
some distinguish themselves with unflagging energy and resources when it comes to "debunking" an idea, a post, or a person.
Originally posted by rich23
As someone else remarked, disinfo agents have a pattern, and some distinguish themselves with unflagging energy and resources when it comes to "debunking" an idea, a post, or a person.
Originally posted by rich23
reply to post by KyoZero
Don't worry about being accused of being an agent. People smart enugh to actually work out who the agents are, are not likely to accuse them directly.
Originally posted by SaviorComplex
Why not attach the label to believers who distinguish themselves the same way, such as MikeSingh or Internos?
Why are not skeptics allowed to be just as passionate as believers?
Originally posted by Skyfloating
In 4 years of reading ATS I have become convinced that a troop of paid-disinformants is operating on ATS to stifle research, derail threads, make the good work of ATS members look stupid to the reader who only superficially browses a subject. These disinformants are often cloaked as skeptics but do not behave like real skeptics but rather like pseudoskeptics.
... Marcello Truzzi: pseudoskeptics ... take "the negative rather than an agnostic position but still call themselves 'skeptics'"[1] [2].
For all those ...researchers ... it is high time to re-instate some confidence in researching views that deviate from the mainstream.
(emphasis added)
Truzzi: ... the burden of proof falls upon the claimant; and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded. The true skeptic takes an agnostic position, one that says the claim is not proved rather than disproved. He asserts that the claimant has not borne the burden of proof ... .
So much for the hysterical "show me evidence ..." crowd.
(emphasis added)
First, skepticism is the foundation of true learning and exploration. Finding the answer(s) to: “Why did that happen;” or, “What is that?” begins with defining the issue and exploring alternative hypotheses (educated guesses) that can be tested, reproduced, and independently evaluated-sometimes with alternative methods of analysis. Attacking a problem from two or more sides sometimes reveals the truth or exposes flaws in the (purportedly) “proven” hypothesis.
Second, those members who are “discouraged,” or “disappointed,” or otherwise hurt by responses to their threads have usually reported an idea/observation/ and jumped to an unfounded conclusion. Not the fault of the responder, that. Rather, the member’s faulty conclusion. (Isn’t that why ATS permits “Anonymous” replies?)
“I saw a strange light,” or “I saw empty boxcars” do not lead conclusively to FEMA camps and flying saucers/ET. (Personally, I firmly believe in ETI and the possibility of visitation. I disbelieve in TPTB rounding up innocent people for eradication. Criminals, the unproductive, undocumented aliens, may be possible in the future, though extremely unlikely.)
The use of questionable sources and poorly- or un-founded conclusions invites critics and true skeptics to point out flawed logic rather than alternative solutions. It also invites “pseudo-skeptics” to offer the alternative answers. This term ignores the fact that sometimes the alternative is obvious, and, used derogatorily, implies an ulterior motive other than truth.
Example: “Eight and four are ten.”
Skeptic: “Not in base-10 mathematics. How did you come to that conclusion?”
‘Pseudo-skeptic:’ “No, they are twelve.”
One of the greatest flaws in controversial ATS threads is the use of questionable sources.
Wikipedia and “Coast to Coast” are NOT sources. They are media; voices and forums for others’ opinions or conclusions.
“I believe …,” “I think …,” and “Everyone knows that …,” are NOT sources or premises; they are opinions.
Logical thought is a progression from one premise to another and an exclusive conclusion. It does not float from surmise to conclusion to conclusion. It allows for one alternative/answer, and (usually) no others. (Quantum theory is an example of several answers competing for exclusivity. String theory attempts to tie-up the competitors.)
Finally, you seem to have misunderstood Truzzi’s statement or his definition in your proposition.
Proponents DO have the “burden of proof.”
Skeptics DO ask for, and deserve, evidence.
Pseudo-skeptics tell you why you, your thinking, and your credibility are full of it.
I think everyone on ATS enjoys and seeks enlightenment and true research.
Perhaps the quality of threads and replies would improve if members took a look at Truzzi’s “signs of a pseudo-skeptic” before starting a thread as well as a reply!
Originally posted by jdub297
Example: “Eight and four are ten.”
Skeptic: “Not in base-10 mathematics. How did you come to that conclusion?”
‘Pseudo-skeptic:’ “No, they are twelve.”
Clearly, written in Standard English, "The photon is a wave," and "The photon is a particle" contradict each other, just like the sentences "Robin is a boy" and "Robin is a girl." Nonetheless, all through the nineteenth century physicists found themselves debating about this and, by the early 1920s, it became obvious that the experimental evidence depended on the instruments or the instrumental set-up (design) of the total experiment. One type of experiment always showed light traveling in waves, and another type always showed light traveling as discrete particles.
This contradiction created considerable consternation. As noted earlier, some quantum theorists joked about "wavicles." Others proclaimed in despair that "the universe is not rational" (by which they meant to indicate that the universe does not follow Aristotelian logic. ) Still others looked hopefully for the definitive experiment (not yet attained in 1990) which would clearly prove whether photons "are" waves or particles.
If we look, again, at the translations into English Prime, [which I have inserted here for those ATS readers too busy or lazy to click the link - rich23]
1. The photon behaves as a wave when constrained by certain instruments.
2. The photon appears as a particle when constrained by other instruments
...we see that no contradiction now exists at all, no "paradox," no "irrationality" in the universe. We also find that we have constrained ourselves to talk about what actually happened in spacetime, whereas in Standard English we allowed ourselves to talk about something that has never been observed in spacetime at all -- the "isness" or "whatness" or Aristotelian "essence" of the photon. (Niels Bohr's Complementarity Principle and Copenhagen Interpretation, the technical resolutions of the wave/particle duality within physics, amount to telling physicists to adopt "the spirit of E-Prime" without quite articulating E-Prime itself.)
One of the greatest flaws in controversial ATS threads is the use of questionable sources.
Wikipedia and “Coast to Coast” are NOT sources. They are media; voices and forums for others’ opinions or conclusions.
“I believe …,” “I think …,” and “Everyone knows that …,” are NOT sources or premises; they are opinions.
Logical thought is a progression from one premise to another and an exclusive conclusion.
Proponents DO have the “burden of proof.”
Skeptics DO ask for, and deserve, evidence.
I think everyone on ATS enjoys and seeks enlightenment and true research.
Originally posted by jdub297
Truzzi founded the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), Randi's home.
two sides of the same coin.
Healthy inquiry and incredulity are what move us forward rather than gullibility. That does not imply or invoke "ad hominem" attacks.
Your credulousness would be better served if you avoided ad hominem in your criticism, as well. (e.g., "Appallying Randi")
Has anyone collected CSICOP's and Randi's $1M "psi prize" yet?
...just look at what happened to J. A. Hynek!
...your "fans" (short for fanatic, you know?) I'm sure enjoy and are bouyed by it.
Smart criticism never hurt anyone and lifts us all a step higher.