Holocaust Revisionists Lawyer Sentenced to 3 1/2 Years!

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
There will be no justice until Holodomor deniers, Metz-Yegern deniers, etc. are treated exactly the same as Holocaust deniers in the eyes of the law.

Can you provide further details of the movements that do deny these genocides and massacres? I didn't realise that there were movements that claim these events didn't happen? Can you supply links to their propaganda?

Thanks

looking from the outside, i see something relating to jewish people
on this site at least twice a week. there does seem to be an undercurrent
of hostility.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
There will be no justice until Holodomor deniers, Metz-Yegern deniers, etc. are treated exactly the same as Holocaust deniers in the eyes of the law.

Can you provide further details of the movements that do deny these genocides and massacres? I didn't realise that there were movements that claim these events didn't happen? Can you supply links to their propaganda?

Thanks

A good search on google will also help.

Holodomor (Genocide of Ukrainians and Kazakhs, artificial famine, 1930s)
Denied mostly by communists, American liberals, and some extreme Jewish nationalists. Note, I didn't say "The Jews" overall. The Village Voice newspaper in 1980s launched a whole series of Holodomor denials. Both the government of the Soviet Union and modern nationalist Russia can be included; the only Russian strongman of note to speak honestly of collectivization horrors was Gorbachev.

Metz Yegern (genocide of Armenians in Ottoman Empire, 1890-1915)
Denied mostly by extreme Turkish nationalists (such as the notorious Serdar Argic) and oil companies interested in the Caspian Sea region. The Turkish government has on official policy of genocide denial and even prosecution of truth-speakers, but this might change in future as a possible requirement for Turkey's admission to European Union.

This doesn't count as true denial - but too many North and South Americans are unaware of the various genocides of the Native peoples of these continents.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Can you provide further details of the movements that do deny these genocides and massacres? I didn't realise that there were movements that claim these events didn't happen? Can you supply links to their propaganda?

I am, in this post, denying those genocides and massacres, including the Holocaust in Nazi Germany. I am not 100% convinced that they did in fact happen, or happen in the way we were told, and am therefore expressing doubt.

Just as I doubt everything else, from the American Revolution to Alexander the Great's conquests.

Question everything.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
repeat the same events? So I suppose these Genocides happened because they had Holocaust Amnesia?

Mao Ze-Dong
[China 1958-61 & 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50] - 80,000,000

Hideki Tojo
[Japan, 1941-44] - 5,000,000

Pol Pot
[Cambodia, 1975-79] - 1,700,000

Kim Il Sung
[North Korea, 1948-94] 1,600,000

Menghistu
[Ethiopia, 1975-78] - 1,500,000

Yakubu Gowon
[Biafra, 1967-1970] - 1,000,000

Looking over your list I think you just proved my point that if you do not teach future generations of past atrocities they can be repeated.

Hitler's euthanasia program was inspired by American euthanasia laws, specifically how California sterilized 60,000 American citizens in 1909, and he also had a great interest in the the American policy of Native American relocation. It still helped to inspire.

I think your Google finger went a little too fast for it was 60,000 from 1909 to 1959 across many states. Sweden also sterilized 60,000 between 1930 and 1970. Boy, thanks for this next great example that you just want to argue a point without wanting the truth. Pick and choose my friend pick and choose.

Do you have empirical data of Hitler explaining his interest in the Native American plight? Or that he was setting up a Jewish reservation?

Even though your examples were wrong or misguided are you saying that you feel Hitler did these atrocities since you suggest he got the idea from America?

So that the artificial Zionist state can continue to exist and claim itself as being a civilized country surrounded by tribal governments and anti-semitic nations, all while it performs it's own modern day genocide on Palestine with the support of it's best friend, the US.

Why is it an artificial Zionist state when it was create by France and England the same way Iraq, Seria, Jordan were created. Do you also suggest these other countries are faulse too. This all happened after WWII, so how does this fit into what hitler tried to do.

No, because we are sypathetic to the Zionist cause... and we must never forget. We have to to the point where recognizing the reason for perpetual war in the middle east is inherently anti-semitic, that the President of Iran is a racist and a crazy for wanting to move Israel, and that questioning the Holocaust gives you 3 1/2 years in jail.

Well I do not think anyone is saying that Israel is the innocent of the world, but they are surrounded by Muslim countries that each one at some point in recent history tried to remove them from the earth. I like you words in "wanting to move Israel" it sounds so nice, but just where would Iran move them to?

I think Israel is just a propaganda tool for other countries to maintain their desired level of extremism. They need a bad guy and Israel is it. You see the difference between you and me is I see all those countries as wanting to push their personal agendas. I see this with Egypt when they took the Gaza strip after the 1948 war but never gave the people of the strip Egyptian rights of any kind and kept it under military rule, but once Israel got it back after the 1967 war now people treat it as a crime, but when it was under military rule by Egypt it was ok. I see it with Iran, Syria, and Iraq all fighting each other and other nations. I see it with Israel in unwilling to compromise. All those countries are really not much different from each other.

But I also see you disbelieving that Hitler used the Jews of Europe as the bad guy for his propaganda tool. That continually got worst for them to the point they all first lost everything of monitory value, and then what little freedom they had once they went to the ghettos, and then finally their lives. If the war was in full swing for another five years Hitler most likely would have gotten his wish.

I think the part that I disagree with you the most is whether this was all part of Hitler's big plan from the beginning and that the SS were some pretty evil guys that could pull it off.

i wonder if anyone would go to jail suggesting the Killing Fields of the Khmer Rouge weren't true....

The Killing Fields were a number of sites in Cambodia where large numbers of people were killed and buried by the Communist regime Khmer Rouge, which had ruled the country since 1975. The massacres ended in 1979, when Communist Vietnam invaded the country, which at that time was officially called Democratic Kampuchea, and toppled the Khmer Rouge regime. Estimates of the number of dead range from 1.7 to 2.3 million out of a population of around 7 million

Originally posted by Johnmike
Just as I doubt everything else, from the American Revolution to Alexander the Great's conquests.
Question everything.

The holocaust is not unique, for anything of importance is automatically stamped as false and riddled with conspiracies. Do you also question the zillion conspiracies too? Can you think of one event that has any importance to anyone that does not have a conspiracy tied to it?

Double post glitch in the matrix.

[edit on 20-1-2008 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by never_tell
i wonder if anyone would go to jail suggesting the Killing Fields of the Khmer Rouge weren't true....

Hmm, go there and stand in front to the 50 foot tower of sculls with a sign that reads it all wasn't true.

Do you want to bet me that you will not end up in jail. I been there and know what they would do. They are not as civil as the Germans.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by never_tell
i wonder if anyone would go to jail suggesting the Killing Fields of the Khmer Rouge weren't true....

Hmm, go there and stand in front to the 50 foot tower of sculls with a sign that reads it all wasn't true.

Do you want to bet me that you will not end up in jail. I been there and know what they would do. They are not as civil as the Germans.

Which would explain why Chomsky never travels to Cambodia!

reply to post by Xtrozero


my point was more to the jewish influence as opposed to a national law or observance... people the world over have been persecuted for espousing the anti-holocaust theory...


i guess i'm saying, if you suggested that the killing fields were "overblown" while sitting in a bar in Miami, few would call you an anti-cambodian... i mean, it speaks to the number of acts of genocide that aren't debated with such furvor... rwanda for example... anybody make laws about debating the numbers there? how many people are even talking about it? how many books or movies were made about that in comparison.... that said, i guess when you own most of the movie studios, its easy to keep it alive.... oh my, have i said too much? here comes the anti-zionist accusations...

Originally posted by never_tell
[oh my, have i said too much? here comes the anti-zionist accusations...

Not from me. I see your point and of course there are political strings all through it. I even thought about why do the Jewish people get their own coined expression for discrimination of anti-Semitism. For most others that I know it is just called discrimination.

As for the word Holocaust, it really didn’t come into play until late 1950s as a Jewish coined label.

I’m not sure if anyone answered my question in one of the first posts of “Why does Germany have these laws?” Since these are German laws and not Jewish laws why are they there?

reply to post by Xtrozero


how about... because Germany is controled by Israel? don't get me going... lol... having landed in germany a few times in my life, I've met more than one intellegent citizen that has a few things to say about who was behind the jewish oppression in the first place... *said while looking for a place to duck and cover* ... by the way, history is rife with ethnic cleansing of one's cousins...

Originally posted by never_tell
how about... because Germany is controled by Israel?

I don't see Germany as some big friend of Israel. I could be wrong, but one would think they would be side by side with them in their endeavors if that were the case.

not every country aligned with israel is going to play hero... afterall, it's best if you hide some of your assets, isn't it? Canada for instance, lots of jewish influence there but you don't see them hiking off to war... IMO america is the fall guy... the bouncer bully and bodyguard if you will... make him big enough and he'll take a number of bullets for you before he goes down... one of things someone said to me in bar over a beer in Hamburg once just stuck in my head forever.... "all the rich jews were sent away and it was the gypsy jews that took the hit... and after all mixed blood doesn't work well with them"... certainly made me think... and do a bit of reading....

a quick search at wiki...

"Half-Jewish"
"Half-Jewish" is a term used to describe people who have one Jewish parent and one non-Jewish parent, though it is regarded as controversial...
People of mixed heritage may not fully identify as Jewish, regardless of whether they embrace Judaism as a religion. In the United States, because of intermarriage, the population of "half-Jews" is beginning to rival that of Jews with two Jewish parents, especially among young children. "Half-Jewish" is emerging as an independent identity with its own traits of tolerance and adaptation, but also perhaps a sense of detachment, spiritual indifference, or unclear identity.

hmmm... and when they invited all the jewish people to the land of israel... were these the criteria emposed? remember the problems ethiopian jews had trying to return to the "promised land"?

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Looking over your list I think you just proved my point that if you do not teach future generations of past atrocities they can be repeated.

So you are assuming that all of those people never heared of the Holocaust, or of any other Genocide? If so it appears that they all were performing the first Genocide in history, as far as they knew?

Now if you say they should all be taught in detail then that would require the Holocaust detail to be pushed back significantly. Do you consider that fair, or somehow trying to trivialize the Holocaust as well as anti-semitic?

it was 60,000 from 1909 to 1959 across many states. Sweden also sterilized 60,000 between 1930 and 1970. Boy, thanks for this next great example that you just want to argue a point without wanting the truth. Pick and choose my friend pick and choose.

So why attempt to trivialize it? It looks like you are even attempting to defend it by saying that Sweden did it too. What gives?

Even though your examples were wrong or misguided are you saying that you feel Hitler did these atrocities since you suggest he got the idea from America?

I'm not suggesting it. You may want to read a little more about the man, and about America's dark past of Eugenics. Hitler studied American Eugenics laws, he has said, "I have studied with great interest the laws of several American states concerning prevention of reproduction by people whose progeny would, in all probability, be of no value or be injurious to the racial stock." and he further goes on in "Mein Kampf," "The demand that it should be made impossible for defective people to continue to propagate defective offspring is a demand that is based on most reasonable grounds, and its proper fulfilment is the most humane task that mankind has to face. Unhappy and undeserved suffering in millions of cases will be spared, with the result that there will be a gradual improvement in national health."

You can read all about it from George Mason University's History Network site: hnn.us...

Why is it an artificial Zionist state when it was create by France and England the same way Iraq, Seria, Jordan were created. Do you also suggest these other countries are faulse too. This all happened after WWII, so how does this fit into what hitler tried to do.

It doesn't fit in at all with Hitler. Those other countries were not purposely created in the religious holy land of another nation for the purpose of perpetual upheavel. It was known full well that it would happen, for it had been happening ever since the Zionist Balfour declaration agreeing to support the Zionist movement in 1918 and the subsequent occupation that followed 2 months later.

Israel was created by a divide of a state by the UN, in which the state divided was not a member, but was occupied and controlled by a state that was a member, and it all began with a military occupation and followed by mandate. I consider that a nonrecognized state and I do not blame the Arab world for not recognizing Israel.

Well I do not think anyone is saying that Israel is the innocent of the world, but they are surrounded by Muslim countries that each one at some point in recent history tried to remove them from the earth. I like you words in "wanting to move Israel" it sounds so nice, but just where would Iran move them to?

How about somewhere where they are not unwanted? Israel is like an injured insect in the middle of an ant colony, only that it is holding bug spray (nukes)... and maybe some claws to kill ants with.

You see the difference between you and me is I see all those countries as wanting to push their personal agendas. I see this with Egypt when they took the Gaza strip after the 1948 war but never gave the people of the strip Egyptian rights of any kind and kept it under military rule, but once Israel got it back after the 1967 war now people treat it as a crime, but when it was under military rule by Egypt it was ok. I see it with Iran, Syria, and Iraq all fighting each other and other nations. I see it with Israel in unwilling to compromise. All those countries are really not much different from each other.

That is nothing but a large generalization and it has nothing to do with what I think.

But I also see you disbelieving that Hitler used the Jews of Europe as the bad guy for his propaganda tool. That continually got worst for them to the point they all first lost everything of monitory value, and then what little freedom they had once they went to the ghettos, and then finally their lives. If the war was in full swing for another five years Hitler most likely would have gotten his wish.

He merely instigated the latent anti-semitic attitude that had already overcome Europe. He didn't implant software into robots or hypnotize anyone to hate Jews. He came to power, he was a natural orator and he captured the hearts of the people. It can be argued that he had some bad ideas, as well as good ones.

Blaming Hitler for the actions of the Germans and the Nazi's amounts as much to blaming violent behavior on video games or movies.

I think the part that I disagree with you the most is whether this was all part of Hitler's big plan from the beginning and that the SS were some pretty evil guys that could pull it off.

There is no evidence to show that the Holocaust was all part of a big initial plan. There is more evidence that points towards wanted to exile the Jews, to move them to the east - perhaps Asia... Perhaps a future Zionist state (a concept that he was familar with)

But again, what we are really discussing here is why it's illegal to question the Holocaust, or more generally restriction of freedom, like why Germany is proposing the banning of a religion, namely scientology. Would the rest of the world follow their example?

Sure, you can say it's not a religion if you want, but tell that to the 500,000 people who live it. Who is anyone to say "What" a religion is? When that happens, there is no longer freedom, but only priviledge.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by benign.psychosis]

[edit on 21-1-2008 by benign.psychosis]

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Have you read the thread about pseudoskeptics?

You fit the mold pretty well.

Just an observation.

Touchy!

It would be valid apart from the fact that its not me who presents a revisionist history on these threads and dismisses the actual historical archive and empirocal evidence, is it?

And time over in threads I've suggested that more things should be taught and taken into consideration.

You, on the other hand can't seem to post without mentioning jewish people in negative terms.

But I digress... you asked

What do you suppose the difference is between "white" people wanting a "white" state by the means of "white nationalism" and Jews wanting a Jewish state by the means of "Jewish nationalism" (Zionism)

There is none. Both are equally stupid ideas. People are people and their beliefs or race make no difference to the basic concept that everyone has a right to exist where they want to exist. Anyone who assigns "reasons" for preventing a particular race or religion from being in one place because they "don't fit" based on colour, race or religion undermines humanity. We are all human after all.

Then you went on to say...

That's anti-Israel rehetoric. It is anti-semitic to suggest the creation of a Palestinian state or point out the obvious that Israel is occupying Palestine.

And then we have people like you, who label it as hatred towards the Jews.

You are sadly misguided in your assumption. Indeed I have been labelled as being "anti-semitic" on several threads for saying such things myself.

Disagreeing with a governments policy is not the same as "hating" people.

Originally posted by neformore

It would be valid apart from the fact that its not me who presents a revisionist history on these threads and dismisses the actual historical archive and empirocal evidence, is it?

Has "revisionist" become a word similar to "racist" ?

Likewise, it would be foolish to dismiss the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a hoax, as much as it would be to take it as absolute truth. An event with so much controversy, emotion, and laws created to silence ideas deserves to be questioned. It begs to be questioned. All of the evidence considered. All of the possible forgeries and false testimony must be examined. It is a time where you have to forget the official story and re examine it yourself, based on all available evidence.

You, on the other hand can't seem to post without mentioning jewish people in negative terms.

I think we can attribute that to a faulty perception of the reader.

There is none. Both are equally stupid ideas. People are people and their beliefs or race make no difference to the basic concept that everyone has a right to exist where they want to exist. Anyone who assigns "reasons" for preventing a particular race or religion from being in one place because they "don't fit" based on colour, race or religion undermines humanity. We are all human after all.

I agree.

Firstly, you're assuming that I haven't looked at the various theories/ideas/evidence relating to the subject matters we are dealing with. Thats your perogative I guess, but you are wrong.

More intriguingly, you said this;

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
I think we can attribute that to a faulty perception of the reader.

"We"?

You do like referring to yourself in multiple terms.

Are you schizophrenic by any chance?

Originally posted by Johnmike
Question everything.

Admirable - but only if you seek out the answers to those questions.