Supercruising F-16XL Offered to India

No the airforce prefer twins for 1 reason (and thats been shown so well over the years) single engined fighters flame out and no restart? good bye to millions of $$$$

reply to post by waynos



One thing to remember that Lockheed and Boeing are compeditors so It not surprising that they would mount an offer. All they really have is the F-16. Im suprised the Block 60 was not mentioned either.

For that matter despite the bad press, if your going to offer up the F-18e/f, and this advanced F-16 why not the F-15 as well.

They have the SU30-MKI so have absolutely no requirement for the F15. ergo if it gets offered it would just be ignored.

Originally posted by Harlequin
whilst typhoon is not the cheapest aircraft - i can see the entire Hawk AJT moving to India , which they would love. and this strengthens the position of the typhoon

If the F-16IN will ressemble to F-16XL, I bet it won't be cheaper than Eurofighter. restart a new production line always be expensive than any present thing building.
reply to post by bios

Heihei, I have a magic mirror that can make any aircraft to do super-cruise, do you believe me?
reply to post by Daedalus3

I am suspicious of no more money Pakistain could get to purchase more fighters advanced than possible F-16XL after they ordered over 300 FC-1 with possible J-10. I didn't see any possibilities that J-10 overwhelm the same quatity of F-16XL, not even FC-1.

Originally posted by FredT
reply to post by waynos

 

One thing to remember that Lockheed and Boeing are compeditors so It not surprising that they would mount an offer. All they really have is the F-16. Im suprised the Block 60 was not mentioned either.
For that matter despite the bad press, if your going to offer up the F-18e/f, and this advanced F-16 why not the F-15 as well.

My lord, do you really think India want any multi-role fighters or aeroplanes?
They just set a seducation and say: come on! let's make a deal, if you want the deal, what you will offer? I think the keypoint is not any fuction that aircraft can provide, but any techniques or skills Iandian didn't see in beforetime. IMO, supercruise doesn't matter to catch Indian but that F110-132 with 14.5 ton thrust offered. US also won't be worried such great engine will be outflow to China as it does before in Pakistain and Israel. Ruusia will be admonished that Sukhoi aircraft is not the only choise to India, I suspect the 126 purchase will be hung on till India get something as much as they are seaking from PAKFA they already joint. One rabbit, many fox

Originally posted by emile
I am suspicious of no more money Pakistain could get to purchase more fighters advanced than possible F-16XL after they ordered over 300 FC-1 with possible J-10. I didn't see any possibilities that J-10 overwhelm the same quatity of F-16XL, not even FC-1.

I think you made a couple of points above and I totally din't get any!
Want to re-phrase please?

My lord, do you really think India want any multi-role fighters or aeroplanes?

...

That's a different way of looking at it!

But they really need the a/c..
sqn nos will drop to

Originally posted by FredT

For that matter despite the bad press, if your going to offer up the F-18e/f, and this advanced F-16 why not the F-15 as well.

FredT, that would be Boeing competing against Boeing, wouldn't it? Perhaps Boeing plan to use the sale of F/A-18F to Australia as a selling point, showing that it is now on the foreign sales radar. Another FMS of F/A-18E/F would help establish the aircraft as a viable option and enable Boeing to allow F-15 to die a natural death rather than trying to re-establish confidence in it. Boeing either has to establish SH as an export option or to re-establish F-15, otherwise they have little to offer at all. Can't really see the Australian SH ploy working though, I'm sure the Indians are aware of the controversy surrounding our purchase (If not, I'm sure Daedalus3 will be quite happy to fill them in).

Future near term marketing of F-15 might depend upon what the USAF decides regarding theirs.

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 20/1/08 by The Winged Wombat]

WHAT IF Boeing decided play Lockheed's game and pull the F-15 Active out of mothballs, fit it with supercruising engines and an AESA radar?

For those who don't know (and I can't imagine any of the regulars in here not knowing what it is), the F-15 Active had axisymmetric thrust-vectoring engine exhaust nozzles that are capable of redirecting the engine exhaust 20°in any direction, not just in the pitch (up and down) axis or direction. Some would call it 3D thrust vectoring.


The canard is actually a modified F-18 horizontal stabilizer...

Bios


[edit on 1/20/2008 by bios]

Originally posted by bios
WHAT IF Boeing decided play Lockheed's game and pull the F-15 Active out of mothballs, fit it with supercruising engines and an AESA radar?

Although I would tear my facial muscles smiling at my newfound faith in the world if that happened, it won't happen for two big, nasty problems.

Problem 1: The F-15 is not the idea behind the MMRCA. The idea is to have a medium multirole to fill the gap between the "light"-class Tejas, and the "Colossal Beast"-class Su-30. The argument that I'll put forth here is the same I usually put forth for the F-18 E/F. It isn't quite the class size that the Indian Air Force wants. The F-16 fits nicely into the open category (I blame the single engine). So, yes, cool, but it's a conflicting purchase with stuff the Indian Air Force is actively acquiring.

For those who don't know (and I can't imagine any of the regulars in here not knowing what it is), the F-15 Active had axisymmetric thrust-vectoring engine exhaust nozzles that are capable of redirecting the engine exhaust 20°in any direction, not just in the pitch (up and down) axis or direction. Some would call it 3D thrust vectoring.

Was it 2-Axis TVC ("cheat" 360 TVC) or full 360 TVC like the MiG-29 OVT?
If it is...

Problem 2: 2-Axis TVC? Canards? Based on a tried-and-true airframe? Sounds exactly like the Su-30 MKI to me. Basically, what I'm saying is that the F-15 ACTIVE conflicts pretty much directly with the Su-30, which the Indians are already getting. So I wouldn't expect this, amazing though it would be.

[edit on 1/20/2008 by Darkpr0]

Yes yes, this is true, triplane really really is not good for supercruise, not even supersonic flight.

reply to post by Darkpr0


I believe it was the true 3D TVC.
20Deg in every direction sounds 3-D enough to me.

reply to post by Daedalus3


The F-15 active has went through about 3-4 programs the first of which was only a 2d thrust vectoring system. The following programs the F-15 ACTIVE (Advanced Control Technology for Integrated Vehicles) program from 1993-1999 and the F-15 IFCS (Intelligent Flight Control System) program from 1999 saw the Pratt & Whitney P/YBBN 20 Degree three-dimensional thrust vectoring nozzles added and used in the flight tests. Some of the results as follows.

vectored takeoffs with rotation demonstrated at speeds as low as 42 mph
a 25-percent reduction in takeoff roll

landing on just 1,650 ft of runway compared to 7,500 ft for the standard F-15
thrust reversal in flight to produce rapid decelerations

controlled flight at angles of attack up to about 85 deg without vertical-tail surfaces

India's MMRCA F-16XL is not true or possible intentional elaborated. Its going to be regular F-16 with advanced avonics, radar and engine. It will employ latest hydraulics technology for wing flaps and landing gears. It will also have latest and most recent available of LANTRN sniper pod that will permanantely attach with F-16IN. Fly by wire technology will be advanced than Block 50 for United Arab Emirate. The certain F-16XL is out of picture. Lockheed Martin would have carefully mentioned that version which they did not. It would be awesome to see that F-16XL into service.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by OneMyrmidon]

SORRY... To correct my mistake, its Block 60 F-16 for UAE. I also have went through extreme to find F-16'XL' for India in internet sites. I have found nothing except for simply regular designed F-16. It must be elaborated by someone in that site with link you guys first saw. Its very possible that this special F-16IN will be powered by either F119 (F-22) or F135 (F-35). I still don't think its F135 because its dimension is therefore the largest and most powerful jet fighter engine ever concieved. F135 is the mastered in technologically improved from experiences with F-22's engines, F119. Its going to be very curious. If its actually F-16XL that would be enter the competition, I'll admit to be surprise with that. Then this special jet would be a bigger dimensions than regular F-16, then F135 is the possiblity. Which it already give me the concerned considering Pakistan and India both operate same kind of jets and they're still in state of war with up and away cease-fire agreements. I pray we never will see F-16 vs F-16 combat ever. India is guaranteed to have edge in... EVERYTHING, in F-16IN will be better than Pakistan's jets.

Daedalus, you made me realized something that would offshot the Russians big time. If India actually select F-16 as their long overdue MMRCA competition winner... If its actually powered by F119 or F135 engine.. Would India attempt to put these engines into their own version of T-50 Pak-Fa jets?

www.associatedcontent.com...


another link saying it could very well be the delta XL frame (from the SCAMP) programme

Hei my friends, do you know the size of F119 compare with F110?
Otherwise, simply increasing dry thrust won't improve to super cruise which also rely on weight and drag that aircraft attributed..

It would be an interesting aircraft, if India is seriously considering it.

I always liked the F-16XL myself, it's an interesting design.

I'm not sure what India will do - given the recent dustup over the Akula sub leasing deal, they may want to send the Russians a message at the moment - they also may want to solidify their defense relationship with the US with a fat contract. Doing so puts them in a better position to bargain for more technology transfer down the road.

With the demise of Cold War alliances, the US and India are no longer in an adversarial strategic position - indeed despite suspicions on both sides they are likely to be forced to cooperate, facing similar strategic challenges.

It's for the better IMHO - the Cold War division of the world into two armed camps was a risky situation the species barely survived. A more complex web of mutual interests is needed to safeguard security moving into this century.

Bios, I'm giving you the credit for this finding.

I admit that this is probably the biggest news of 2007-2008 in aerospace culture, bigger than Su-35BM Last Flankers. F-16XL is going to be potential 4.5+ Generation aircraft. Emile, with today in many advancement in carbon composition technology, the modern version of F-16XL (F-16IN) have potential great weight saving program. I could give it a estimate more than 2,000 to 3,000 lbs lighter than first F-16XL. Maybe its too much estimate but its a possiblity. Engineers in Lockheed are one of the greatest in this world. With little bigger dimensional size in fuselage, therefore, F119 engine will give the huge raise in flight performance and agility along with fuel saving. I would recommend proud and very professional Indians to take this jet.

[edit on 22-1-2008 by OneMyrmidon]

reply to post by Harlequin


The way I read the article is that the Supercruise is part of the deal as well as the engineering that went into the XL but it does not comit to the XL's delta wing.

i honestly think that they won`t dust off the 25 year old XL frame - and in all liekly hood it will be a block 60+ conventional falcon - which the indians don`t really want.

they can buy AESA from a few places now and thats all the falcon offers really.