The Holocaust is Overrated

yes, it is easy to get caught up in the emotional response (outrage) of it all. What we are claiming is that though use of propaganda and the educational system, the people of the world have the image of Jewish Suffering in the Holocaust scared into them traumatically through movies, books, and history lessons at a young age. For example, Anne Frank's Diary is a required read for most elementary school, which is pretty hardcore for a fourth grader. You can ask any little kid what the Holocaust is and I am certain that they will refer to the Jewish suffering in some way while leaving out everyone else. Sure they are little kids, but they shouldn't be learning about such horrible stuff in the first place. This conditioned trauma is then used for political gain.

The Holocaust is the only historical event that can land you in jail if you question it.

[edit on 22-3-2008 by italkyoulisten]

I've been away for Easter and haven't had the chance to keep abreast of this discussion.

Apolon - I'm sorry if you think I was misleading people with my quotation of your original point - it genuinely wasn't my intention. However, in return, I think you are misleading people as to the nature of my argument.

If you read what I've said properly, you will see that I have at no point argued with the concept that other slaughters deserve more attention than they have got. All I am questioning is the basis for the assertion that they have in some way been suppressed by Jewish people. Please take the chance to reread my posts and you will see what I mean.

You previously stated that Hitler was brought to power by Zionists. You still haven't backed it up. What you’ve done is offer me a list of things you perceive to be unjust that have happened since the second world war. I repeat the question – who were the “Zionists” that put Hitler in power, and what evidence to you have for their doing so?

You can quote figures back to me all day and all night if you like, I’m reluctant because I think it distracts from the main drive of the OP, and because actually I don’t see where our figures don’t match up anyway!

6 million is the figure I gave for the number of Jewish deaths during the second world war. 1.1 million at Auschwitz, the rest elsewhere. This isn’t based on LP Beria, it’s based on census information and the research of several others. I’m reduced to quoting myself, but here goes:

The camps at which Jewish people were systematically killed were Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Belzec, Majdanek, Chelmno, Sobobor and Maly Trostinets. Then there are Einsatzgruppen killings in the occupied Soviet territories, the deaths in other concentration camps and Polish ghettos, and killings in Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Italy and Norway. 6 million represents the overall figure for Jewish deaths. About 1 sixth of those occured at Auschwitz.

I don’t see where your 3 million comes from, but as far as I know my own information is the consensus among most historian authorities on the subject – Jewish or otherwise. As for your statement:

Next evidence easily proven if you dig just a little you will find photos of post war memorial stone with a figure of 4 million and new one which states 1 million in front of Auschwitz. Obviously that fact alone proves thay manipulate figures and facts just for moneay and power gain.

Every so often with your arguments I feel like you’ve strayed into the realms of the slightly bizarre – how does the change of the number indicate that “thay [sic]” manipulate anything? Who are “thay” and where is the link? This is just more paranoia masquerading as fact – there’s no names, evidence, or even much of a theory here, is there?

You asked me for a list of people in the US government that were not Zionists - I gave it to you. Your answer was "oh yes they are" - which is great pantomime, but not great debate. I would be prepared to accept to some extent the argument that says that key figures in the US government and senate are lobbied by people with Zionist agendas - but only in the same way that they are lobbied by people with an agenda in the vehicle manufacturing industry, say, or fossil fuels. But either way, you're still presenting your suppositions as evidence, which isn't enough to convince me, I'm afraid. To be honest, I think your long quotation from an unnamed “Jewish-run” source (perhaps next time you could provide the actual link, or publishing information, or something – as required of you by the ATS rules?) only goes to demonstrate how irrelevant a concern religion is. Fewer Jewish people in Bish’s government has not affected US policy towards Israel one little bit – as your own evidence demonstrates.

I think your point about Hollywood is pertinent and valid. If you'll forgive me, I'd like to combine my response with that I would give to italkyoulisten's point about the "hardcore" nature of Anne Frank's diary. Unquestionably a harrowing read, if more for the context in which it was written than the content itself, it nevertheless (as I've observed before) presents itself as a far more obvious tool for learning than a statistics sheet from the Eastern front that deals with numbers of Russians dead. In the same way, Hollywood would rather deal with the "human" side than an "inhuman" sheet of statistics. Apolon, please note - I don't disagree that this is an often ill-advised way to document the past. Where I do disagree is with your interpretation of the motivation behind it.

Where you see emotional engineering, I see emotional engagement - where you see sinister forces I see practical application, and perhaps we will never agree. But either way this is interpretation, not science or evidence. If you want to assert a sinister conspiracy is at work, you need to be able to prove it with evidence. And by evidence I don’t mean, taking fact A, and fact B, and drawing an arbitrary line between them based on your own suppositions in order to demonstrate a link.

Thanks

LW


P.S - italkyoulisten - how many people are currently in prison as a result of "questioning" the holocaust? Genuine, agenda-free question - I don't know the answer, and can't find it anywhere online - but it would be interesting to know...

reply to post by LoneWeasel


Hi LW,

Well spoken. I agree with most of your post apart from the fact that you've mentioned already that things are not being manipulated by zionists and certain other factions for complete power gain across the globe.
You and others might call People like us conspiracy theorists but that is just expression made to discredit any arguments or group of People demanding some answers.
I'll try my best to come up with some other stuff to support that argument but it is difficult when I don't have resources and power like THEM!
I admire you patience to write such a long letters. I can talk for hours with People but writing few sentences is testing my patience already.
I'll try to gather something to explain my point of view better.

Best regards!

reply to post by Apolon


This website refutes the Auschwitz-gassing story and also follows the evolution of the story.

www.ihr.org...

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
reply to post by Apolon

 

This website refutes the Auschwitz-gassing story and also follows the evolution of the story.

www.ihr.org...

It offers a list of "alternative" opinions and theories - most of which are already contained within the confines of the posts in this thread.

As evidence of numbers and stats goes, I find the census studies the most convincing, simply because they are based on facts that come detached from the main body of material concerning the holocaust itself. Those are the studies that give a figure of 1.1 million killed at Auschwitz.

But I do find the stats argument a bit of a red herring. We've already established over and over again both that there have been other instances of mass slaughter that rival and in some instances exceed the numbers involved in the holocaust. Establishing a link between those statistics and a deliberate campaign of attention grabbing and suppression on the part of the Jewish religious movement is where I feel your argument falls down - and where I think your evidence runs out.

I note that you haven't responded to my question about the number of people currently incarcerated for having "questioned" the holocaust...

LW

I think they teach it, because the Holocaust has a deeper meaning. It tells us that we cant judge people based on nationality or if they are disabled. No matter how you look at it, it IS a very tragic event. Also, I dont think they wanted to talk about the Japanese raping people to kids in elementary schools.

Nice thinking. This sort of thing had happened plenty of times before. I think the Holocaust and its victims are so revered because it's so shockingly recent, so it hits home more.

Originally posted by non-Jew

Just based upon your user name and the topics which you have been attacking, clearly you are here just to cause trouble and gain attention, however negative.

I think the reason it's so seared into us is twofold. First is the fact that it was white people doing it--to 1930s and 1940s sensibilities, savagery from Asians didn't seem like anything unusual. Second is the fact that it happened right under our noses, receiving apathy, praise, and even overt support from the rest of Europe, making just about everyone alive at the time guilty by association.

there is a paper written by my roommates son on my kitchen table about Anne Frank. He is a fourth grader and his grasp of the events are that the jews were persecuted by Hitler and more of an emotional history rather than a factual one.

1943: February 18th, Zionist, Izaak Greenbaum, head of the Jewish Agency Rescue Committee, in a speech to the Zionist Executive Council states,

“If I am asked, could you give from the UJA (United Jewish Appeal) monies to rescue Jews, I say, no and I say again no!”

He would go onto state,

“One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland!”

This is not a surprise, the whole idea of Zionist support for the slaughter of innocent Jews was to scare the survivors into believing that their only place of safety was Israel. How else do you think the Zionists could ensure Jews leave the beautiful European cities in which they live, in order to settle in a desert!where this is from

reply to post by italkyoulisten


Not suprising given the authors background

Mark Weber : The Professional Denier

I'd say his view points have no place in a modern civilised society. Wouldn't you?

"I'll end on a minor quibble - but my suspicion is that this particular phenomenon is dependent on the school you went to, not any national policy. Certainly not in the UK, anyway - we had rememberance services for soldiers killed in conflict, with the emphasis on the two world wars. But nothing specific to the Holocaust.

LW The uk has a different perspective. Palestine was part of the Empire and we walked away. leaving them to the mercy of the Zionists who had committed several acts of terrorism against the British Stare, killing British Citizens and blowing up a major hotel s and institutions - and then even as the dust had settled on settled on Belson - began to instigate their own Holocaust against the indigenous population to make way for the influx of Khazarians from Europe

is was never our intention to sell the Palestinians down the river but, we were bankrupt after WW2 and could not stay

One good result for the UK (often over looked) was our defence and creation of Jordan as an independent Arab state - deporting the Jews who were settling there illegally in droves against the law

The Jews demanded and expected to get all of Palestine -even the part which is now Jordan

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by italkyoulisten

 

Not suprising given the authors background

Mark Weber : The Professional Denier

I'd say his view points have no place in a modern civilised society. Wouldn't you?

I'd say that any information coming from the World Jewish Congress or the Anti-Defamation League is extremely biased and are only concerned with keeping Jewish people in a place of power.

Basically Anti-Defamation League says you can't say anything bad about Jews or else they will destroy your credibility forever. Notice how they didn't use any real evidence or present any of his views. The ADL website just tries to slander and attack him rather than his arguments. They call his writings "hateful propaganda" and yet from reading his article, I do not see any hate involved. Rather calm, logical progression from one point to the next.. with SOURCES, which the ADL website does not have. But they are automatically more credible right?

The ADL website also tries to paint him as racist because of his statement:
"... You and your classmates may expect to face grave political, economic and social problems. There will be outright discrimination against you as you compete for admission to the better colleges. Less-qualified nonwhites with lower academic standing will be pushed ahead of you by means of racial quotas and four-year scholarships."
Well that's true. It's called affirmative action. It's not racism, it's fact.

He also apparently said: "I don't believe it's possible for Black Americans to be assimilated into white society."
Perhaps he is just relating to the cultural difference, as there is no context provided for the quote. Basically what I am trying to say is that there ADL is just as biased if not more. They are just on the other side of the spectrum and are "official" so they appeal to people's idea that authority is always right.


Basically using the ADL as evidence is like using the Bible to prove the existence of Jesus.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by italkyoulisten]

been on the fence a while but reading so much dissinfo i have to reply ...

I don’t have enough words in this to explain the wrongs in this thread
Many indeed got the idea and understand it is overblown and totally out of context...
This is due to the agenda...
You have to realize the Nazis have been funded and brought to power by the Zionist bankers in Europe
THEY made the NSDAP what they became...
and NO NO NO
You were not marked because you was a Jew in Nazi Germany
It had much more to do with the betray of the German Jews during wwI...they sold Germany out form within to the British and that be reason the Germans lost WWI nothing to do with anything else but internal unrest instigated AND FUNDED BY THE JEWS DURING WW I
That’s was the main reason for Jews to have to wear a Jude stern


The Germans did not trust them one minute..
Also and please do the research
I see so many ignorant fools posting in here stating FACTS

Like the gas chambers in the konzentratiokamps
That’s is such BS for example
The GASCHAMBRE IN AUSSSCHWITS MANY MANY PEOPLE SEE EVERY YEAR ..NEVER HAD A JEW IN IT ..
IT GOT BUILD BY THE RUSSIOANS IN 1948...

TO THIS DAY I AM STILL WAITING TO SEE A FINCTIONAL OPERATIONAL GASCHAMBRE !!!

Many people are still trying to research this but still to this day only elected scientists get access to the documents. UNLIKE SOME STATING INTHIS THREAD AS A FACT ..THE DOCUMENTS ...
NO YOUR WRONG !! THE DOCUMENTS ARE NOT PUBLIC AND YOU AND I WILL NEVER SEE THEM !
Please people get your facts right
In Germany for example you try to research this you get thrown in jail
Just a few months ago some researched got locked away again for 5 years because he questions some fact ..
Next let’s look at the holy number of 6 million you read everywhere ...
For starters it was never 6 million ..It’s a logistically impossible and if you really stop all this sentimental BS and look at the facts you can find that lie out yourself ..
it was just not possible the way you are told ---

Next please have a look at the Nuremberg trial and look how much time got spend on researching and establishing what happened at the konzentrationkamps ...minutes ...a few minutes and 1 or 2 people got called ...
NO defence was allowed and NO evidence was presented ..
LIES LIES LIES all just damned lies
The 6 million numbers was published in a US paper long before the war atrocities ..It’s Public ..Go and look for it ...that is if you really care ...most of you just repeat the BS you are told at school
Zionist propaganda ! Nothing else ..
The Zionist published their plans well before the so called holocaust if you care to look there are numerous documents and newspaper reports explaining what the plans are for Germany and the German genome ..TOTAL extermination was the plan .....It all there you just have to stop looking at Zionist US propaganda and research ..Make sure you do it secretly or you’re thrown in jail
onethirdoftheholocaust.com go on I dare you to watch it ...
Very informative
AND yes stop all this sentimental BS and look at it technically and with an open mind
It’s an impossibility that it did happen the way they said ..
Oh yeah and if it cannot be proven it was gas chambers they insist it was diesel engines apparently in some konzentration kamps ..BS and LIES ! open your eyes ...think ...the German nation and its people are broken for ever and will never be a problem on the Zionist charge to word power ...Until WWII they were a problem ..because they are thinking people and did not like the undermining of they country form within by the Zionist money-grubbing subversive elements in there country named the ZIONISTS . Equally a problem was the Zsar in Russian a problem that got dealt with immediately .. ..both nation have been dealt with and will never be in the way of Zionist thrive to world power ..gentiles and goyims we really all are ...dumb and easy fooled like cattle .
WAKE UP !

Originally posted by memyself_I
been on the fence a while but reading so much dissinfo i have to reply ...

Great! We can confidently expect an evidence-filled well constructed response to the points raised in this thread, then.

You were not marked because you was a Jew in Nazi Germany
It had much more to do with the betray of the German Jews during wwI...they sold Germany out form within to the British and that be reason the Germans lost WWI nothing to do with anything else but internal unrest instigated AND FUNDED BY THE JEWS DURING WW I
That’s was the main reason for Jews to have to wear a Jude stern

Oh dear. How disappointing. Your very first point and you present an argument without anything to back it up by way of evidence, reference or academic authority. Not a very good start. Perhaps it'll get better...

The Germans did not trust them one minute..
Also and please do the research
I see so many ignorant fools posting in here stating FACTS

The hypocrisy, let alone the sense, of this statement is quite bewildering - what is it that you feel you are doing if not "stating facts"? Where are your links? Where are your references? On what do you base your argument?

Like the gas chambers in the konzentratiokamps
That’s is such BS for example
The GASCHAMBRE IN AUSSSCHWITS MANY MANY PEOPLE SEE EVERY YEAR ..NEVER HAD A JEW IN IT ..
IT GOT BUILD BY THE RUSSIOANS IN 1948...TO THIS DAY I AM STILL WAITING TO SEE A FINCTIONAL OPERATIONAL GASCHAMBRE !!!

You'll have a long wait then - I suggest you calm down about it, as it's clearly affecting your spelling - there's no suggestion that there are any existing "finctional" gas chambers. The suggestion is that there were during the war. And there's plenty of evidence - much of which has been referred to earlier this thread. If there's any evidence that the Russians built it in '48 (a suggestion I find to be almost childishly absurd, incidentally) - I haven't seen it, and you certainly aren't offering it, so it's hard to see what you think you're adding to the debate.

Many people are still trying to research this but still to this day only elected scientists get access to the documents. UNLIKE SOME STATING INTHIS THREAD AS A FACT ..THE DOCUMENTS ...
NO YOUR WRONG !! THE DOCUMENTS ARE NOT PUBLIC AND YOU AND I WILL NEVER SEE THEM !
Please people get your facts right
In Germany for example you try to research this you get thrown in jail
Just a few months ago some researched got locked away again for 5 years because he questions some fact ..

This simply isn't true. Name the person who got thrown in jail for researching the holocaust in Germany, and please cite the legislation that resulted in their having been imprisoned.

Next let’s look at the holy number of 6 million you read everywhere ...
For starters it was never 6 million ..It’s a logistically impossible and if you really stop all this sentimental BS and look at the facts you can find that lie out yourself ..
it was just not possible the way you are told ---

I thought you'd been studying this thread? If you actually had, you would see this topic debated over and over again already. To suggest that it's "sentimental BS" borders on the offensive (a border you've to my mind crossed several times already in any case) and doesn't take into account the clear arguments put forward earlier. If you want to engage with those arguments feel free, but stamping your e-feet and shouting "LIES LIES LIES" doesn't add a great deal to what we've already discussed.

The Zionist published their plans well before the so called holocaust if you care to look there are numerous documents and newspaper reports explaining what the plans are for Germany and the German genome ..TOTAL extermination was the plan .....It all there you just have to stop looking at Zionist US propaganda and research ..Make sure you do it secretly or you’re thrown in jail
onethirdoftheholocaust.com go on I dare you to watch it ...
Very informative

"Go on I dare you?" For heaven's sake. Can you provide one credible link to a single one of these "Zionist" documents? Can you provide one rational, respected historian or student of the history of the time that agrees with your view or supports the argument put forward in your video? Do you seriously expect anyone to view your version of events as balanced? What part of your argument isn't based on supposition and theorising? And please - no more dramatic monologue, lets have some real references, and some genuine evidence.

It’s an impossibility that it did happen the way they said ..

Why?

Oh yeah and if it cannot be proven it was gas chambers they insist it was diesel engines apparently in some konzentration kamps ..BS and LIES ! open your eyes ...think ...the German nation and its people are broken for ever and will never be a problem on the Zionist charge to word power ...

I don't think any of my German friends consider their nation to be "broken forever"... but whatever floats your boat...

dumb and easy fooled like cattle .

Thanks for the final insult - and thanks again for engaging so constructively with the debate. Thank heavens you got off the fence - I can only think you were sitting incredibly uncomfortably to inspire this level of frankly immature tosh.

LW

@lone weasel
For starters stop the agro
I have nothing against you and have not insulted or attacked you
So now then let me try in my not best English to enlighten you to a few facts

It does look indeed as I did get your attention although you seem angry ..
I understand the truth hurts and is indeed hard to swallow but let me assure you the facts are facts and cannot be removed by sentimental views of history!!!
I can and will prove all the points you so strongly disagree with although some of your quotes of my post are just that a quote without content or question. so I will ignore these .
If you had any idea of the matter you would of course know the answers yourself to many of your questions but rest assured I will try my best to help you out

Now to my spelling mistakes ...once you speak as many (four) languages as I do you are allowed some spelling errors as well if it is not your native language until then I suggest you shut it .. :O)
Now if you have German friends as you so fittingly point out then I am sure they can enlighten you to the laws in Germany
I surly am not going to help you out there ....
Its PUBLIC KNOWLEGDE AND 1 MINUTE IN GOOGLE WILL TELL YOU THE PROBLEM IS REAL ..

If you want to help sign the petition
petitiononline.com/hammer72/petition.html

Its a fact in Germany you question ANY holocaust ´facts´you will be imprisoned ..LOOK IT UP !
The numerous people in jail are also easy researched don’t ask me to do the work for you ..
What iam telling you here is fact not fiction .
I understand its hard to believe and I had massive problems doing so over 15 years ...but unfortunately free speech in Germany in a Myth ..
Just one name to start you search Google Defence lawyer Sylvia Stolz!

Now let me do your trick and start quoting

Oh dear. How disappointing. Your very first point and you present an argument without anything to back it up by way of evidence, reference or academic authority. Not a very good start. Perhaps it'll get better...

What are you wanting ...If you did any research on the 2 WW you should know this ..Its not something new ..
YQUOTE
While that was going on, the Zionists in Germany, who represented the Zionists from Eastern Europe, went to the British War Cabinet and -- I am going to be brief because it's a long story, but I have all the documents to prove any statement that I make -- they said: "Look here. You can yet win this war. You don't have to give up. You don't have to accept the negotiated peace offered to you now by Germany. You can win this war if the United States will come in as your ally." The United States was not in the war at that time. We were fresh; we were young; we were rich; we were powerful. They told England: "We will guarantee to bring the United States into the war as your ally, to fight with you on your side, if you will promise us Palestine after you win the war." In other words, they made this deal: "We will get the United States into this war as your ally. The price you must pay is Palestine after you have won the war and defeated Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey." Now England had as much right to promise Palestine to anybody, as the United States would have to promise Japan to Ireland for any reason whatsoever. It's absolutely absurd that Great Britain, that never had any connection or any interest or any right in what is known as Palestine should offer it as coin of the realm to pay the Zionists for bringing the United States into the war. However, they did make that promise, in October of 1916. And shortly after that -- I don't know how many here remember it - - the United States, which was almost totally pro-German, entered the war as Britain's ally.
ENDQUOTE
christianparty.net...


If you are to lazy to read, you are American I guess, maybe the audio file is better for you . Google it !

to be continued


[edit on 28-5-2008 by memyself_I]

next you quote me here :

The Germans did not trust them one minute.. Also and please do the research I see so many ignorant fools posting in here stating FACTS

and reply with this :

The hypocrisy, let alone the sense, of this statement is quite bewildering - what is it that you feel you are doing if not "stating facts"? Where are your links? Where are your references? On what do you base your argument?

This quote has absolutely no value at all ! whats you point !
I state iam dissapointed at the research of people to my earlier mentioned facts and you just quote for the sake of it ? why ?
Links are all nice and good but If you really would be intereted and KNOW the matter I would not have to quote as the findings THAT ARE decades old .

Nevermind , on to your next

You'll have a long wait then - I suggest you calm down about it, as it's clearly affecting your spelling - there's no suggestion that there are any existing "finctional" gas chambers. The suggestion is that there were during the war. And there's plenty of evidence - much of which has been referred to earlier this thread. If there's any evidence that the Russians built it in '48 (a suggestion I find to be almost childishly absurd, incidentally) - I haven't seen it, and you certainly aren't offering it, so it's hard to see what you think you're adding to the debate.

OMG this just is so plain silly how come you NEVER apparently hear of this when officially , LOOK IT UP . the number had to be reduced because of Proof by revisionst so the official death number already is not 6 million anymore ..Official ...Of course its not advertised or EVER mentioned in any media but it has been officially noted that the holocaust and its logistics is just not possible ...

Just to help out your wandering mind a bit ..
READ!!!
www.australiafreepress.org...
vho.org...
vho.org...

NO FOTOS , NO Documentation but apparently all happend... Are you really that dense ??
Evidense is NULL
If you care to read the Nuernberg trials and spend some time to look at the Ausschwits chapter , INSTEAD OF ASKING ME TO POINT THE BLIND THE RIGHT WAY, you will notice NO foto has ever been submitted as evidense ..Thats why u wont find one today .
Furthermore there has NOT been ONE shred of evidence this gas chambre was used for anything else but dissinfection ..


Next I ask you to look at the other Konzentration kamps
lets look at Treblinka..
I could go on and on and on and pon ..
Just a shame iam not the best Writer and do mix things up and write them the worng way around an so forth hence i leave it to people that KNOW how to write propery arguments and STILL to this day wait to be challanged about the facts .
This does not make My post UNTRUE as you are suggesting It merly proofs iam a bad writer .

I invite you to watch
onethirdoftheholocaust.com

Even wihtout beeing anyhitng but a normal person you will be able to detract the information and see Logistically this was impossible at least as they let us believ it happened .
Where are the apparent millions
Where are they all buried ..
Where did all the TONS AND TONS of wood come from IF indead they have all been burned ..as the Jewish Phrophecie says 6 million have to perish and burn in the oven before they will be led to their holy land .
..Just funny this how they say 6 million have to die and burn in ovens ....Just good the nazis where there then to oblige and make sure excatly 6 million are killed and burned ..very convinient for the prophecy and OHH GOODDY after the so called holocaust they have their HOLY LAND Israel
Of course all coincident ...Prophecies come true sometimes ..
Dont make me laugh ...

The facts are all so wrong you dont have to be the brightest bulp to see the impossibility of the official claims

[edit on 28-5-2008 by memyself_I]

reply to post by memyself_I


LW asked a pertinent question. I think its deserving of an answer.

Have you actually read the thread?

If not, I suggest that you do so. It will save you - and the rest of us - an awful lot of time.