Is There A Conspiracy Of Atheists To Overthrow Christianity?

Originally posted by NewWorldOver

Originally posted by riley
This thread has really illustrated how ignorant people are.. not just about atheism but non christian belief systems in general.

Buddhism.. is a philosophy..

Please, stop.

There are far too many kiddies running around calling themselves Buddhists when they fail to follow a single doctrine.

Yes, Buddhism is a 'philosophy' as are almost ALL religions. 'Theism' or not, it IS a religion, it is a spiritual doctrine.

Please stop parading eastern religions as the antithesis to Christianity etc.

I did not.. buddhists don't have a god. They are atheist.. atheism is NOT the antithesis of christianity. I never pitted buddhism against chrisianity either and I resent the insinuation that I only started following it to fit an agenda.

It's very cute how many atheists want to call themselves Buddhists, but it's become tiresome to witness.

I haven't belittled anyone else for believing in god. Please do not imply that I'm playing pretend just to win an argument. Thats really biggoted imo.. I don't make fun out of people that claim to be saved.. please afford me the same respect.

No real Buddhist would waste a moment of his life criticizing other religions etc.

That reads like "no real christian". sorry but it's obvious you do not have such an evolved sense of spirituality that you can start redefining entire beliefs systems for other people. To presume your perception of it is more valid that mine is extremily arrogent.. not to mention anti-buddhist in itself:

www.sapphyr.net...
Believe nothing on the faith of traditions,
even though they have been held in honor
for many generations and in diverse places.
Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it.
Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past.
Do not believe what you yourself have imagined,
persuading yourself that a God inspires you.
Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.

~Buddha.

As you can see it is up to me to decide how I walk my journey.. not you.

..and I haven't been criticizing christianty. I criticized the OP's assertion that all atheists are out to overthrow christianity. Defending myself and others against slander is not anti-buddhist. In fact it's an attempt to prevent ignorance which can prevent stigma and negative sterotypes which can prevent biggotry which can prevent suffering.. understand? It's looking doubtful..

But there aren't many real Buddhists, obviously. It's becoming an easy out for spiritually lazy individuals.

You obviously do not have the slightest clue.

[edit on 18-2-2008 by riley]

Originally posted by riley

Buddhism.. is a philosophy.. and no it having "ism" on the end does not somehow make it a theism.


[edit on 17-2-2008 by riley]

Actually, i was just highlighting how Buddhism is treated more with more or less the same religious stereotype as Christianity - that people speak of being a buddhist when in reality they're merely interested in the social benefits of doing so.

I apologise if anyone took that out of context.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
Sorry bud but I don't have the energy to deal with your constant side-stepping and avoidance.

...uh huh...i'm side stepping and avoiding...
yeah, not really. i'm tackling things in a quite head on manner

I explained clearly what it means to be a buddhist and you half-heartedly agreed to and side-stepped each point I made.

no, you explained what YOU THINK it means to be a buddhist.

Believe nothing on the faith of traditions,
even though they have been held in honor
for many generations and in diverse places.
Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it.
Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past.
Do not believe what you yourself have imagined,
persuading yourself that a God inspires you.
Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
-Buddha

that is the most basic point of buddhism

You seem to have difficulty accepting ownership of your posts and the things you say.

and you like to sit on your high horse while making statements like that.

I recommend being more honest with yourself and other people. If you're going to call yourself a Buddhist and then claim that the Christian Bible is laughable etc.

...so being honest is now anti-buddhism? i can't say what's honestly on my mind because i'm a buddhist atheist?

Taoism is as much a joke to some people as Christianity. But you don't see Taoists attacking Christians for a reason... it is against their precepts. Buddhism as well.

now you're acting as if buddhism is a single unified religion with universal precepts...
as i've stated before, you're not paying attention.

I find it arrogant to side-step the doctrine of your own professed philosophy in order to carry on criticizing others.

my philosophy has no doctrine... that's the whole point.
i'm a buddhist in that i'm following teachings of the buddha...but not all of them because some of them disagree with the general concept of buddhism, which was summed up in that quote

[edit on 2/18/08 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

no, you explained what YOU THINK it means to be a buddhist.

That's so nice of you to tell people what they think as if what they think they didn't already know. Perhaps THAT is the reason neworldover was suggesting to were "side stepping the issues not saying what it is YOU think you know" I think newworldover already has heard what he has to say.

that is the most basic point of buddhism

simple common sense list

and you like to sit on your high horse while making statements like that.

See he is right after all and without the high horse

...so being honest is now anti-buddhism? i can't say what's honestly on my mind because i'm a buddhist atheist?

That isn't what he said at all, he is NOT saying being honest is anti buddist, he is saying being buddist and not being honest or forthright in your answers, hurts your testimony.

now you're acting as if buddhism is a single unified religion with universal precepts...as i've stated before, you're not paying attention.

on the contrary madd,, you have convoluted his every reply and followed it asking a question for him to elaborate regarding statements YOU totally misunderstood and he never made.

my philosophy has no doctrine...

thus it has no discipline no reason to see it as anything more then a quasi form existentialism and hedonism.

That I am sure isn't the way Buddists would represent it, regardless of your intentions.

- Con



[edit on 18-2-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Originally posted by heliosprime
Atheist, Buddist, Hindi, Catholics, Muslim's.............all will see the lake of fire unless they repent of their pagan ways.

how ignorant...paganism =/= atheism
atheism is actually the exact opposite of paganism, especially since paganism tends to be polytheistic (though it can often be gaia-centric deistic)

Why do you insist on being so presumptuous Madd? He listed FIVE religious sects up there, and why YOU would even compare paganism to atheism is just more doublespeak from you as you have "educated" us countless times that Atheism is NOT a religion so why would you qualify it as one in a religion comparison

buddhists? what have they ever done to you...or anybody else for that matter?

You would have to ask someone that has made that type of allegation but like you have done with newworldover, helio and myself on countless posts, you are commenting on things that were never said then you ask a question for him to elaborate about statements YOU totally misunderstood and he never made.

i've never heard of anyone dying or killing in the name of buddha.

you are commenting on things that were never said then you ask a question for him to elaborate about statements YOU totally misunderstood and he never made.

catholics? i always find it so funny when christians try to tell each other who is a real christian...

I find it funny that YOU think Jesus had taught anything about purgatory a Pope and saints bishops or were requiered to confess their sins to a man in a box and not to the lord, I could go on but you get the point helio was making. I realize it is a bad habit Atheists have for lumping all religions together as one meme and I hope you would understand that Christianity is popular enough to have had many try stealing the name while not the teachings.

Atheist do have an agenda to kill anything Christian, why else deny GOD.

we deny god plural
we deny them all, no deity is denied more than any other.

You deny God? of what pray tell? I thought you didn't believe in God which one would have to do to deny something asked or requested by him

Interesting.

what wisdom?

Well there ya have it, you can't miss what you never understood so that's why you ask "what wisdom" because you are asking is proof of just what he said. I guess we can't really hold that against you now can we, I mean after all,, he made the supposition because it is obvious (with all due respect) you are not wise in this regard and now we know why.

you're being quite bigoted and ignorant here.

How so? Can we not assume the same allegation for you when ever you "giggle" at the Bible or deny its wisdom in a an ad hoc suggesting it has none as if you were right while we have to explain distinct theological discrepancy between catholics doctrine and Christian teachings? One who finds every opportunity to be the antagonist of Christianity here on these boards should have no problem with being called a bigot while Atheist instill in their followers to ridicule Christians suggesting they should never hold a postition of power etc.

You are quite the enigma Mims

- Con



[edit on 18-2-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by Conspiriology
That's so nice of you to tell people what they think as if what they think they didn't already know. Perhaps THAT is the reason neworldover was suggesting to were "side stepping the issues not saying what it is YOU think you know" I think newworldover already has heard what he has to say.

...i was pointing out that he was going on opinion instead of objective fact.

simple common sense list

that seems entirely absent from any other religious philosophy on the planet...

See he is right after all and without the high horse

he isn't right...

That isn't what he said at all, he is NOT saying being honest is anti buddist, he is saying being buddist and not being honest or forthright in your answers, hurts your testimony.

...and i was being honest and forthright with my answers...

on the contrary madd,, you have convoluted his every reply and followed it asking a question for him to elaborate regarding statements YOU totally misunderstood and he never made.

thus it has no discipline no reason to see it as anything more then a quasi form existentialism and hedonism.

um...what?
where does hedonism fit in? pursuit of pleasure isn't my main goal...
and I'M the one distorting things?
and existentialism...well, i could see your point on it being quasi-existentialist, though it really isn't.

buddhism doesn't have an inherent discipline like other religions..it's quite centered on personal discipline instead of institutional discipline...help thyself.

That I am sure isn't the way Buddists would represent it, regardless of your intentions.

considering that you just threw out the term "hedonism" for the sole purpose of a personal attack...obviously that's how they wouldn't represent it. but each buddhist has their own view.

the whole point was that some buddhists are atheistic and the question was whether or not they'd be part of this supposed conspiracy?

so show me this conspiracy, i've yet to see it.

I don't think it could be called a conspiracy, I think many Athiests would openly like to see religions pulled down globally. They cause more problems than they solve, they're antiquated socially constructed comfort mechanisms.

Out with the old, in with the truth?

[edit on 19/2/08 by Duality]

[edit on 19/2/08 by Duality]

Originally posted by Conspiriology
Why do you insist on being so presumptuous Madd? He listed FIVE religious sects up there, and why YOU would even compare paganism to atheism is just more doublespeak from you as you have "educated" us countless times that Atheism is NOT a religion so why would you qualify it as one in a religion comparison

he said "ALL WILL PAY FOR THEIR PAGAN WAYS" (emphasis added)
all...
that includes the atheists.

You would have to ask someone that has made that type of allegation but like you have done with newworldover, helio and myself on countless posts, you are commenting on things that were never said then you ask a question for him to elaborate about statements YOU totally misunderstood and he never made.

i was just wondering why someone would think that followers religion that advocates the most christlike lifestyle would be cast into a lake of fire and whatnot...

you are commenting on things that were never said then you ask a question for him to elaborate about statements YOU totally misunderstood and he never made.

no, i understood. i was just pointing out how peaceful the religion was, peace being something jesus held in high regard.
blessed are the peacemakers, remember?

I find it funny that YOU think Jesus had taught anything about purgatory a Pope and saints bishops or were requiered to confess their sins to a man in a box and not to the lord, I could go on but you get the point helio was making.

well, jesus didn't teach a lot of things...jesus never seems to have said anything about writing of holy books, yet that was done.
why follow the new testament? jesus never said anything about having a new holy book at all. wouldn't he have written it down himself if it was that important? surely that means you should only be following the old testament and nothing else.

see, you're also doing things jesus didn't say

I realize it is a bad habit Atheists have for lumping all religions together as one meme

um...just look at the similarities between the koran and the bible and you'll understand why we often do so.

religions at their core are essentially the same, it's the superficial stuff that's different.

and I hope you would understand that Christianity is popular enough to have had many try stealing the name while not the teachings.

odd that you'd cite the oldest sect of christianity as the one trying to steal its name

]
You deny God? of what pray tell? I thought you didn't believe in God which one would have to do to deny something asked or requested by him

Interesting.

...i deny that the philosophical concept holds weight...
now you're just arguing semantics

Well there ya have it, you can't miss what you never understood so that's why you ask "what wisdom" because you are asking is proof of just what he said.

i was just asking what wisdom we were trying to remove...
love thy neighbor? we kind of support the concept (though it's not unique to christianity)
the golden rule? we like that one too (though confuscius gets kudos for that one)

i want to know what wisdom we're trying to remove, not what wisdom there is in general. i know the pros and cons of your text, i'm just trying to get a more specific allegation

I guess we can't really hold that against you now can we, I mean after all,, he made the supposition because it is obvious (with all due respect) you are not wise in this regard and now we know why.

wow, more personal attacks

How so? Can we not assume the same allegation for you when ever you "giggle" at the Bible

how is that bigoted or ignorant? i "giggle" at the bible because it is contrary to reason.
according to the bible, the sun goes around the earth...tis not the way of the cosmos, so i giggle.

or deny its wisdom in a an ad hoc suggesting it has none

i never said it has none, i was trying to ask what wisdom we were trying to remove.
though i would say it has more silliness than wisdom

as if you were right while we have to explain distinct theological discrepancy between catholics doctrine and Christian teachings?

well, i did make an earlier point that you're doing things that jesus didn't specifically ask to do...
and many sects go even more against the teachings of jesus than the catholic church, like the dry sects. why would jesus want people to not drink when he turned water into wine?

One who finds every opportunity to be the antagonist of Christianity here on these boards should have no problem with being called a bigot

a bigot isn't someone who hates an idea, a bigot is someone who hates a person. helios was talking about people, i'm talking about the concept
notice that i'm not discriminating against people simply on the basis of religion, i like certain religious people on the merits they have as a human being.

while Atheist instill in their followers to ridicule Christians suggesting they should never hold a postition of power etc.

um...where is this? seriously, i want to see where this ludicrous allegation comes from.

see, i can actually point out places where christians have barred atheists from holding positions of power (i believe the state constitutions that do so have already been pointed out in this thread)

Would you two quit bickering... you have totally taken over this thread.

Originally posted by riley

I haven't belittled anyone else for believing in god. Please do not imply that I'm playing pretend just to win an argument. Thats really biggoted imo.. I don't make fun out of people that claim to be saved.. please afford me the same respect.

Well, you made a great post, but to clear things up : to be an atheist on the offensive IS to scoff at others for believing in God, etc. and it is a regular practice by the atheist community. If you don't want to accept that practice as part of your atheistic doctrine, so be it. If I call myself a vegetarian, I am expected to dislike meat. I can't decide to have a hotdog once in a while and call myself a vegan just to 'fit' in.... I think you see how this analogy works.

If you're going to call yourself an atheist and a buddhist, you should know how ridiculous that sounds. Atheist communities all over have erected a reputation for wanting to abolish ALL religion... that includes Buddhism. You seem to have constructed your own definitions to revolve around the existence of a Christian God or Deity etc. and that's just more atheist save-facing.


Maybe you are not an atheist but you are against organized religion. There are plenty of theists and gnostics who are in the same boat... atheism is a dirty rag of an ideology that too many people have taken upon themselves. Judging by your posts, that is what I see as well.

By the way, God is the supreme source of consciousness which Buddhism knows as enlightenment. All religions share the same goal.... people hate religion because they don't see the goal, they see the hypocrisies etc. They are the dogs who stare at the pointing finger. Would Buddha be the dog staring at the pointing finger? No.

[edit on 21-2-2008 by NewWorldOver]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

i'm a buddhist in that i'm following teachings of the buddha...

.... No.... You're not


Buddha would not consider posting atheist sentiments on message boards a worthwhile growth in consciousness. In fact, that's pretty close to the exact opposite of spiritual progression.

To be an atheist and to claim allegiance to spiritual ideology is a joke. To stand up with your chin high over and over, poking others in the chest and then claiming yourself to be on a spiritual path, is a joke.

Highjacking threads to rally for atheism, and than declaring yourself a Buddhist following Buddhist precepts, is a joke.

It's a shame this thread is 27+ pages in or more people might have the energy to share a laugh with me. But this thread has been avalanched by atheist agenda ranting etc. and I find it absolutely laughable that all of a sudden these atheist warriors are buddhists.

reply to post by grover


...indeed.
wise words.

after this post, i shall bow out of the thread for a temporary leave of absence

i hope people will actually get on topic.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
Buddha would not consider posting atheist sentiments on message boards a worthwhile growth in consciousness. In fact, that's pretty close to the exact opposite of spiritual progression.

...alrighty, i'm going to have to spell it out for you again, aren't i?

the teachings of buddha are, by buddha's own admission, not to be taken at face value and are to be accepted if they agree with one's own reason...so the whole spiritual thing kind of flies out the window with that for me.

To be an atheist and to claim allegiance to spiritual ideology is a joke.

To stand up with your chin high over and over, poking others in the chest and then claiming yourself to be on a spiritual path, is a joke.

to claim that i said i was on a spiritual path is to misunderstand what i said
i clearly stated that i was ATHEISTIC

Highjacking threads to rally for atheism, and than declaring yourself a Buddhist following Buddhist precepts, is a joke.

i'm the one highjacking this thread?
i think i made an offhand comment about being an atheistic buddhist that someone else dragged out some accusations...
in fact, go back and you'll see that i've repeatedly asked people to get back on the damn topic

It's a shame this thread is 27+ pages in or more people might have the energy to share a laugh with me.

laughter in a discussion is the refuge of those with no argument.

But this thread has been avalanched by atheist agenda ranting etc.

atheist agenda?
see, it's accusations like that which show your complete and total lack of understanding of atheism
we have a single agenda: not believing in anything of the supernatural variety
and stop with the smears.

and I find it absolutely laughable that all of a sudden these atheist warriors are buddhists.

screw it, i'm not even going to bother addressing these anymore. i'm not the only one who has explained it, so you're simply refusing to listen.




now, where's the conspiracy?

Remember this ?

Is There A Conspiracy Of Atheists To Overthrow Christianity?

The topic is Not each other or this threads' derailment.



Let's try to focus , Please !

Originally posted by NewWorldOver

Originally posted by riley

I haven't belittled anyone else for believing in god. Please do not imply that I'm playing pretend just to win an argument. Thats really biggoted imo.. I don't make fun out of people that claim to be saved.. please afford me the same respect.

Well, you made a great post, but to clear things up : to be an atheist on the offensive IS to scoff at others for believing in God,

Wow.. do you really believe what you just said to me?

Such logic.. "Oh no.. she swims! I told you she was an evil witch!"

I would only be an "atheist on the offensive" if I did something like.. say starting a thread attacking all christians without reason. I have been defending atheism.. and buddhism does indeed allow for self defence and the defence of others. I've even spoken to a monk about this and there is no conflict.

This thread is actually an attack and an offensive on atheism by a handful of "christians". It's almost enough to wonder if some non-passive christians [oxymoron?] here are conspiring to try to force atheists off ATS by creating an anti-athiest enviroment. Sorry but blaming the victim won't work here.

..and could you please stop abusing people for saying they are also buddhists? Please? I find it extreamily offensive- it's not for you to judge.. and if you REALLY want to start correcting others on the 'correct' way to follow their own beliefs..

Well we can play that game too:

What does Jesus say about removing that blank from your eye? not casting stones? turning the other cheek perhaps? Claiming false witness..?

So you are what it is to be a christian? You are what jesus sounded like? I was raised christian so I know all about it.. but YOU clearly do not know anything about buddhism. I already provided you with a verse exlaining why it's not for you to dictate to others what buddhism is.. yet you dismissed it and are STILL claiming to know more than we do. Please try educate yourself before spreading even more of your misconceptions.. I hear google is good for that kind of stuff.

Highjacking threads to rally for atheism, and than declaring yourself a Buddhist following Buddhist precepts, is a joke.

Did you not read the part where I said buddhists do not worship god/gods?

They are atheists as well as buddhists so in reality this thread accused them of being anti-christian.

[edit on 22-2-2008 by riley]

Posting this again:

www.sapphyr.net...
Believe nothing on the faith of traditions,
even though they have been held in honor
for many generations and in diverse places.
Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it.
Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past.
Do not believe what you yourself have imagined,
persuading yourself that a God inspires you.
Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.

~Buddha.

And.. even though this has been said about 30 times before there are many kinds of atheists.. and there are established belief systems that just do not have deities and actually pre-date christianity .

Again: Atheism =/= anti-christian.

I have however done some research on one of the groups I menioned earlier and found out that there is one are very anti-god [on their site at least]. They are the raelian [sp] movement and want donations to build an embassy for the return of our alien makers etc. To accuse them of being anti-christian might be more reasonable as they are openly anti-christian and there's evidence.. to accuse ALL atheists of being out to get christianity however is just illogical.

I must say though I have never seen raelians starting anti-christian threads so they can't be really be said to be on the offensive either..

[edit on 22-2-2008 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.

This quote keeps getting thrown around. So basically someone can label themselves a Buddhist because they adhere to this one little quote from Gautama while dismissing the rest of his philosophy? Great. I hereby deem all of thee Christians because our Bible says a wise man judges all things and to test all doctrines from teachers as well.

And, yes. I'm kidding to try to ease some of the tensions in this thread while also trying to make a point. Not aimed at anyone in particular because it is arrogant of me to judge the beliefs of people I hardly know but regular atheists claiming to be Buddhists (and yes I realize Buddhism is atheistic) reminds me of 12 year old girls claiming to be Wiccans because they cast a few spells here and there.

And to keep it on topic: But I do agree than Raelians and other alien cults seem to have it in for religion and Christianity in particular. We could turn to conversation around to is there a conspiracy in general to overthrow religion. Yes, it seems so.

[edit on 2/22/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by riley
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.

This quote keeps getting thrown around.

Indeed it doesn't.. I quoted it in context.. you just took it out of context..

So basically someone can label themselves a Buddhist because they adhere to this one little quote from Gautama while dismissing the rest of his philosophy? Great.

I certainly HAVE NOT dismissed the rest of the philosophy.. I just stay true to my conscience and I try NOT to cause suffering through my actions or innactions.. and I do try to be accountable if they do. It's a very difficult thing to do as you're always having to weigh things up all the time and are very mindful of not being hypocritical.. yet you still need to defend what you believe is right. Everything has a consequence.

And, yes. I'm kidding and trying to ease some of the tensions while also trying to make a point. I'm sorry but regular atheists claiming to be Buddhists (and yes I realize Buddhism is atheistic) reminds me of 12 year old girls claiming to be Wiccans because they cast a few spells here and there.

Why thanks so much for denograting my entire life's spiritual journey [30+ years] by comparing it schoolgirls playing make believe. Your level of disrespect truly is astounding.

[edit on 22-2-2008 by riley]

reply to post by riley


You quoted and replied while I was still updating. Read it again. I fixed a few things so it wouldn't sound condescending and to keep it on topic after a mod's warning above. If you took it as an insult, that wasn't my intention but I'm not one to shy away from my true opinion as you can see.

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by riley

 

You quoted and replied while I was still updating. Read it again. I fixed a few things so it wouldn't sound condescending and to keep it on topic after a mod's warning above.

I did read it again..

If you took it as an insult, that wasn't my intention but I'm not one to shy away from my true opinion as you can see.

You just compared my [and others] coming out as a buddhist as being like 12 year old girls playing pretend witches.

Of course I took it as an insult.. and if that wasn't your intention.. well thats worse. If thats your 'true opinion' of atheists and buddhists it's a very biggoted one and I want no further part in it. You just inferred that you somehow fixed your post and made it less condescending. Seriously? You didn't even retract your school girl quip or offer an apology for it.

[edit on 22-2-2008 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
You didn't even retract your school girl quip or offer an apology for it.

Of course I didn't retract it but only rephrased it because it's how I honestly see such an argument. There is no need to walk on egg shells when you're sharing an opinion as long as you phrase it respectfully. Could I be wrong? Of course. Again, I don't know you. But it sounds like claiming to be a Buddhist based on a segment of the philosophy is like the posers I went to high school with who thought saying 'so mote it be' made them a witch. We could use some Christians as an example for good measure. Does someone following the ten commandments make someone a Christian or should they consider the technical definition of the word: a follower of Christ.

You could be a Buddhist for all I know. It doesn't contradict atheism. It's also none of my business but thought I'd ask for a clarification. Anyways, I have a feeling a mod is about to come in here and lay down the holy hammer on both of us so I'll stop there.