The Radicalization of America

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


And the irony of his statement still seems to fly over the heads of some

As bad as people think things are now, they have been worse in the past. The closest we came to a new civil war was in the late 60's, as an unstoppable force (civil rights) began to batter against an immovable object (the US government). Now we've grown pretty indolent since then, sure, but the unfortunate fact is, the people who are being singled out and spit on today are hte ones that just don't have the numbers or clout to fight back - the homeless, homosexuals, immigrants, and anyone who isn't within the continental borders of the United States.

It's all carefully done, calculated to create an accessible and acceptable scapegoat for problems that lacks the means to fight back.

This discussion might seem esoteric, but its NOT being had in most of America. Don's historical allusion to the early 20th century is not out of line. If you snipped out the timeline 1900-1930, you'd find a surprising similarity to 2000+. What does that mean for the period of 2000-2030?

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
I'm well aware of the strike busting that used to be done with Federal troops. Thank you, T.R. I also understand that we're likely to see Federal forces used on U.S. soil tome time during the next decadate. Just one one thing that will contribute to that trend in radicalization that I'm warning against.

radicalisation is an effect, not the cause, provided your warning was heeded, what do you think would happen instead? people who depend on the occasional burst of violence, to keep the mainstream stunned will of course find substitutes for genuine, home-grown anarchist groups.

whenever a crowd of peaceful protesters gets beaten up, tear-gassed and chased around a bit by riot police, inescapable phrases like 'Someone threw a bottle...' (so the police had to kick the guts out of a few dozen people in the vicinity) are thrown around, with little or no substance.

edit: case in point, there's a leaked police video, which clearly demonstrates that their objective is to enforce compliance, in this case driving the protesters off.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

biased commentary aside, this footage clearly shows that whatever does not happen by itself will simply be invented.

may i ask, what are people supposed to do once they're living under military enforced curfew? roll over and hope for the best? that way i fear many people will die without as much as a peep.




[edit on 14.2.2008 by Long Lance]

Originally posted by Long Lance
may i ask, what are people supposed to do once they're living under military enforced curfew? roll over and hope for the best? that way i fear many people will die without as much as a peep.

It's been my experience that there are two kinds of people in this world. the tell me's, and the the show me's.

To be totally blunt, we won't be able to do much until that martial law actually goes in to effect. The tell me crowd is in the minority. that would be you and me, talking about this now. The show me's won't beleive a word you or I say until there are checkpoints in their neighborhood.

Even when that actually happens, the chances for revolt are slim.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
The show me's won't beleive a word you or I say until there are checkpoints in their neighborhood.

Even when that actually happens, the chances for revolt are slim.

so, the best people can hope for is self-restraint of the powers who will then have succeeded in installing a worldwide, totalitarian government, for basically unknown purposes?

worked well throughout the 20th century, right?... NOT. tbh i refuse to believe that the majority will willfully die just to take us pesky dissenting minorities with them - or that their stance would even matter if it was true.

I'm hoping for a lot more activism, myself. I'm just pointing out what I see as the facts of the case. If we are fortunate, those who do act will do enough to inspire the rest.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
I'm hoping for a lot more activism, myself. I'm just pointing out what I see as the facts of the case. If we are fortunate, those who do act will do enough to inspire the rest. To be totally blunt, we won't be able to do much until that martial law actually goes in to effect. The tell me crowd is in the minority. that would be you and me, talking about this now. The show me's won't believe a word you or I say until there are checkpoints in their neighborhood. Even when that actually happens, the chances for revolt are slim.

Should we ever reach this point in America, let’s call it “Point R,” it will be bloody. There will be a “take no prisoners” mentality on both sides. Guerillas have no place to “store” prisoners anyway. In order for an insurrection to succeed, it must have popular support. The guerilla fighter works at night, but must sleep in the day. He cannot do that unless he has a very sympathetic population.

This puts any serious resistance squarely into the hands of African Americans. Except for a very small minority of America’s blacks, they have been shut off from the American mainstream since 1619. Make no joke about that.

Anyone who seriously contemplates a real resistance to the economic oligarchy who rules this land, must find ways to involve and utilize the blacks of America. So be nice. For a change.

I think my specialty would be white phosphorous triggered with prima-cord, to “melt down” the giant electric grid towers outside the cities and so many it is impossible to guard. With a very little outlay for supplies and only minimal training, a determined team of 3-4 guys could shut down half of America anytime he wanted.

Cell towers offer another inviting target. I like white phosphorus because it is silent as it goes about its work. I don’t know where you get it, but Google could solve that problem. And prima-cord is the best fuse you can get. It burns at a staggering 25,000 feet per second! You could plant a dozen charges around an area, both on electric towers and on cell towers, then trigger all the charges at essentially the same time. I would take the W/P 20-30 seconds to do its work, so you’d want to be a quarter mile away when you lit the fuse. And etc.

[edit on 2/16/2008 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
I think my specialty would be white phosphorous triggered with prima-cord, to “melt down” the giant electric grid towers outside the cities and so many it is impossible to guard.

I can see that you've been reading some of my other work. T&C's won't let me get too specific, but I think Don is on the right track. I've been a ba-a-a-ad influence.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

I can see that you've been reading some of my other work. T&C's won't let me get too specific, but I think Don is on the right track. I've been a ba-a-a-ad influence . .

Warning Received and Acknowledged. I will NOT be sending 100 pounds of C4 via FedEx to my UNfavoriites, John Mellon Scaife and the Walton boys. Thanks, J/O, for this "paper reduction act" you have performed for me.

On a much sadder note, 3,963 US uniformed personnel have gone KIA in Iraq as of 2/17//08. I dread to think our #4,000 KIA would happen around 3/9/08. Sad.

[edit on 2/17/2008 by donwhite]

I think we all know what we're talking about here. We just have to be a little more dilligent in our use of the English language. We can still talk about hese things, but we should never forget ourselves. Having said that, I do get Don's point, and its more or less what worries me about our not too distant future.

I have read all of the posts from this thread up until now and even though I am not in the know with the latest conspiracies or an American therefore I am also at a loss for the majority of American history and politics, my apologies.

Though America’s economic plight is usually followed by the rest of the world so I wish to add my 2 cents and ask a few questions if that is ok.

My first question is isn’t this potential upcoming recession just a normal part of the economic cycle that happens every 20- 25 years? 1987 was the last I believe which brings it close to another again does it not?

I understand from this thread and others that some people are concerned that America will soon become a police state? In my belief America is one of the most patriotic countries I can think of along with a population that is relatively “Gun Ho” and places the right to bare arms high on their list of priorities? Personally I couldn’t think of another country that would be harder to place under such conditions?

I’ve seen from the previous posts on this thread that I am joining a highly articulate and intelligent debate and I humbly ask for some insight into these questions and do apologize if they seem a little stupid.

Welcome to the discussion:

Originally posted by MuLongQun
My first question is isn’t this potential upcoming recession just a normal part of the economic cycle that happens every 20- 25 years? 1987 was the last I believe which brings it close to another again does it not?

The normal money cycle isn't prone to such severe movements, up or down. In general, the avereage cyclical downturn is about three percent. Waht we face now could be as steep as tweny percent, or worse. The average stock market correction is five percent, but we're now facing a correction that would be twenty percent or larger.

The fact of the matter is that nobody really knows how severe the debt crisis is. the only thing we do know is that its getting worse.

Originally posted by MuLongQun
I understand from this thread and others that some people are concerned that America will soon become a police state? In my belief America is one of the most patriotic countries I can think of along with a population that is relatively “Gun Ho” and places the right to bare arms high on their list of priorities? Personally I couldn’t think of another country that would be harder to place under such conditions?

Americans are quite sensetive to even the smallest loss of their civil liberties. We don't like to see even the smallest step taken that would bring us closer to a tyranny. As I write this, we face a long series of small steps that will eventually result in a Federal government that has so much power that it can't be stopped.

Some ATS members beleive that we are living in a police State right now. We have seen a substantial loss of our civil liberties in just the last six years. It is my opinion that, if we continue to lose civil liberties at the present rate, we might see that tyranny late in the next decade, 2014 and beyond.

Originally posted by MuLongQun
I’ve seen from the previous posts on this thread that I am joining a highly articulate and intelligent debate and I humbly ask for some insight into these questions and do apologize if they seem a little stupid.

There is no such thing as a stupid question. If you want asnwers, you need to find the words to ask. As you can see from other posts in this thread, a lot of people have questions and opinions.

If we don't talk about these things, nobody will be able to form an opinion.

[edit on 18-2-2008 by Justin Oldham]

reply to post by MuLongQun

My first question is isn’t this potential upcoming recession just a normal part of the economic cycle that happens every 20- 25 years?

In 1949, a best selling book attempted to show the connection between the NYSE - stock market - and SUNSPOTS. Before “on time” delivery replaced warehousing the old law of supply and demand was offered as the “reason” or “cause” of the vicissitudes of the stock market.

The problem as I see it is much akin to the DJIA versus any given stock on the market. Dow Jones Industrial Average. The DJIA is based on 30 stocks. It happens those stocks are chosen because they are the BEST stocks. You may own a stock that does much better than, or much worse than, the DJIA. Yet we almost “worship” at the foot of the DJIA. Aside: Before Rupert Murdoch came along, Dow Jones owned the Wall Street Journal.

I understand from this thread and others that some people are concerned that America will soon become a police state? In my belief America is one of the most patriotic countries I can think of along with a population that is relatively “Gun Ho” and places the right to bare arms high on their list of priorities? Personally I couldn’t think of another country that would be harder to place under such conditions?

I think liberty versus security rides a cycle similar to the financial markets. 1848 was the year of socialists revolutions in Europe. The Russian 1905 Revolt failed but as we all know, the 1917 Revolt did not. Capitalists in America like Andrew Carnegie and George Pullman railed against socialism from the beginning and were absolutely supported by almost every local, state and Federal government. Scores of workers were killed by soldiers, police and company hired thugs.

There was an ANTI Red scare in American from 1918 to the mid 1920s. We enacted an immigration law that favored North Europeans over South Europeans. American courts routinely ruled against workers’ strikes until the 1933 Wagner Act permitted strikes. Few Americans know the US sent 20,000 US soldiers into Russia to break the Bolshevik Revolution. Along with British and Japanese. By 1923, the Reds had prevailed and the Western forces left.

Another RED scare followed after the expulsion of Chiang Kai Shek from mainland China by Mao Zedong in 1949, there was another RED scare in America. Joe McCarthy led the rampage which included taking J. Robert Oppenheimer’s security clearance away. Him being not only LEFT but also JEW. 2 strikes. Our current government is trying its best to create an ISLAMIC scare. Let's hope reason prevails. But alas, it rarely does.

The current avalanche against civil rights is actually a right wing revulsion with the Warren-Burger Supreme Court. Most of what we call our rights today have been defined and enlarged by that era of LIBERAL bliss. The so-called ACTIVIST judges.

Chicago 1886. The Chicago Haymarket massacre was on 4 May 1886. Eight anarchists were tried for murder. Four were put to death and one committed suicide in prison. The Haymarket affair is generally considered to have been an important influence on the origin of international May Day observances for workers. But NOT in the United States. Deeply polarized attitudes separating business and working class people in late 19th century Chicago are generally acknowledged as having contributed to the tragedy and its aftermath. Business won. And is still winning.

Chicago 1968. Reflect on the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago. A police riot. I have always said Mayor Daley elected Richard Nixon president that day.

Chicago 1969. On December 4, 1969, a tactical unit of the Cook County, Illinois State's Attorney's Office, in conjunction with the Chicago Police Department and the Federal Bureau of Investigation conspired to murder the leader of the Black Panther Party. FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover had demanded that the COINTELPRO personnel "destroy what the Black Panther Party stands for" and "eradicate its 'serve the people' programs.”

At 4:00 a.m., the heavily armed police team arrived at the site, dividing into two teams, eight for the front of the building and six for the rear. At 4:45, they stormed in the apartment. Mark Clark, who had been in a front room with a shotgun in his lap, was killed instantly after firing off a single round; the only shot the Panthers fired. The automatic gunfire converged at the head of the bedroom where Fred Hampton slept. Two officers found him wounded in the shoulder, and fellow Black Panther Harold Bell reported that he heard the following exchange: "That's Fred Hampton." "Is he dead?... Bring him out." “He's barely alive; he'll make it."

Two shots were heard, which it was later discovered were fired point blank in Hampton's head. According to Deborah Johnson, one officer then said: "He's good and dead now.”

Fred Hampton murdered by the police, joins Ernesto “Che” Guevara, murdered by the CIA in Bolivia after being captured on October 9, 1967. Latest addition is Abu al-Zarqawi, murdered by US Special Forces after his capture in Iraq on June 7, 2006.

It took years of incessant public pressure to expose the truth; eventually it was proven that all but one of the 99 shots were fired by the police.

[edit on 2/18/2008 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
Hello Seagull:

The polarization you refer to have been steadily tracked since the 1980's. It's already here. The next step in political devolution would be radicalization, which is starting to happen now. It'll take us 2-4 years to see it 'bloom' to the point where it can't be denied.

Hello JO, I feel the same about how we the people are being pushed into a corner by Big Brother. Some of the laws that have been passed since 9/11
The Patriot act 1,2 and the still to come before the senate Bill S1959 would give the Government power to arrest you for attending a rally that they deemed a terrorist movement.

I have been watching the changes in how the Police treat people and how the Bill of Rights is being ripped apart by The so called leaders of our country.
Its sickening to watch and even more stunning as the majority of citizens dont even notice as they are to wrapped up in American Idol or their multi tasking daily lives.

I myself feel something very Big will happen before the 2008 election and Bush will declare Martial Law and appoint himself Dictator and then the Revolution of the REAL Patriots will become a reality .

reply to post by Nailer

I myself feel something very Big will happen before the 2008 election and Bush will declare Martial Law and appoint himself Dictator and then the Revolution of the REAL Patriots will become a reality.

How about Commander-in-Chief for Life? The whole War on Terror is a right wing scam and an electoral ploy by the Bush 43 and Neo Cons. We cannot sustain what the WoT requires over the long haul. We will be bankrupt before OBL is!

As demonstrated to us the hard way in Iraq - fast approaching KIA #4,000- that our rough and brutal approach generates more sympathy for OBL than tracking him down by law enforcement and bringing him to trial ever would. Our surrogate Mr Masharif of Pakistan - 10 to 50 atom bombs - in grave danger of being overthrown as he is more identified with us, as already has happened to Mrs. Bhutto. We must END this War on Terror sponsored by the Neo Cons.

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by Nailer

 

I myself feel something very Big will happen before the 2008 election and Bush will declare Martial Law and appoint himself Dictator and then the Revolution of the REAL Patriots will become a reality.

How about Commander-in-Chief for Life? The whole War on Terror is a right wing scam and an electoral ploy by the Bush 43 and Neo Cons. We cannot sustain what the WoT requires over the long haul. We will be bankrupt before OBL is!

As demonstrated to us the hard way in Iraq - fast approaching KIA #4,000- that our rough and brutal approach generates more sympathy for OBL than tracking him down by law enforcement and bringing him to trial ever would. Our surrogate Mr Masharif of Pakistan - 10 to 50 atom bombs - in grave danger of being overthrown as he is more identified with us, as already has happened to Mrs. Bhutto. We must END this War on Terror sponsored by the Neo Cons.

The Scam has cost our country 4,000 innocent lives of men and women whose famalies now left asking why.
The Iraq war was another testing ground for new weapons and OIL, NO weapons of mass destruction were ever found. It is time the people , the ones who pay the salaries of the senate/congress and the President and VP to have their voices heard and if the overwhelming voices are ignored then the Government should be taught to listen .
Bush,Cheney should be hung for crimes of treason if you ask me.

I have a question for all of you. What positive productive steps could you recommend that people take now, while they still can? Serious question, so I want serious answers.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

I have a question for all of you. What positive productive steps could you recommend that people take now, while they still can? Serious question, so I want serious answers.

You’re asking me HOW do I take back my government from the elected representatives who have sold their soul to the lobbyists? Those self same people are the ones who must VOTE to curb or limit the influence MONEY has acquired in our government.

Right as I write this, the current administration is busy preparing leases for land to build condos on and to “develop” as they like to say. Only problem I see is this LAND belongs to the American people. Not to the Department of the Interior. Some of OUR land goes back to the 1803 Louisiana Purchase. Another acquisition of land was Alaska in 1867. Some land was taken from the Mexicans in the 1846-48 War.

What to do? I’d say if each one of us would follow the voting of our two senators and our one representative closely, and make up a mailing list of 10 people, and mail then a weekly summary of how they voted. I am confident that informed people will reach the right decisions. It is only when we are at the mercy of Rupert Murdoch and FOX News that we falter and risk losing our democracy, or REPUBLIC as Ben Franklin called it.

Observe, and take part in your second amendment rights. If you are of age, it is your duty to be prepared to defend the country and constitution from anyone or thing, that includes career polititions or anyone that wants to control we the people. When will the next boston tea party begin?

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
I have a question for all of you. What positive productive steps could you recommend that people take now, while they still can? Serious question, so I want serious answers.

leave the cities if you are at all capable to do so and prepare for a partial collapse, vote with your feet. until then share verifiable factoids from the fringe which could help to make people sceptical (getting them to think is another matter entirely ). establish situational awareness, ie. know what's going on so you won't be caught completely off guard. if you believe you're about to get raided (or looted), do something, preferrably in time, either flee discreetly, fight or find any other conceivable way to deal with the problem. never wait until they come in and gun you down, waco style, make a conscious decision, no matter where things are headed, don't become a headless chicken. they'll invent an entire novel of false allegations anyway once you're jailed or dead and make you look like a crossover between OBL and Timothy McVeigh, so don't just go sheeple for reasons of publicity. it will work - but not for you.

finally, all things in moderation, becoming a nut is a dreadful and inquieting prospect and will make you a convenient target to boot and shoot your credibility. speaking of shooting... learn how to shoot - and maintain weapons. this includes reloading.


PS: i have not lived in a warzone ever so take what i wrote with a pinch of salt - and feel free to correct me or add.