Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?? So What??

reply to post by jpm1602


well technically, none of the books were written while jesus was supposed to have lived (which I dont believe) anyways. They are all written as spiritual accounts and supernatural visions. Not a single text written about jesus was written by one of his contemporaries. Unless I am mistaken, in which case I hope someone can put me straight.

I suppose the point of the matter is that 'no one' can disprove or prove "anything". I seem to have clearly once again totally misinterpreted your remarks Scientist. Not just yours exclusively. Wouldn't be the first time. Go back to the picking and disbelief thing. That's cool. We are all entitled to our beliefs.

every one is entitled to there beliefs. But what i don't get is the blind followers that never question why this why that. why was this book left out and not this one. is it because most of the books that were left out contridicted the offical story being painted by the church? or was it because some of them hinted that jesus married and at the time of his crucifiction she was with child? or it contradicted his divinity? all import questions that people need to consider IMO.

Sin......"There is no one who will live for a single day and not sin." in Scripture.
We are ALL capable of sinning or not sinning.
Before the fall (garden of Eden)man did not know/recognise the word 'SIN'...
Sin actually means to 'miss the mark''!
We are able defeat Sin with prayer and fasting(scripture speaks of this).....in regards to temptations that come our way.If one does not recognise this(temptations of the flesh) as SIN, then one cannot heal or be let to heal...to overcome this.
''"For I fail to practice the good deeds I desire to do, but the evil deeds which I do not desire to do are what I am always doing." also in Scripture

"He who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning."
From the beginning because 'SIN' is a Temptation......it appeared in Genesis right when God created man in His Image...Let US make man in Our Image.
The Devil sought to destroy man from being close to God.....as Man was created immortal...then man experienced DEATH as a result of their desire to taste the tree of Knowledge..Life and Death.
We are told to "Keep vigil and pray lest you fall into temptation." as we all can fall into temptation...
For this, Christ came to the World.....to destroy SIN.....The CROSS is a pre figuration of the Tree of Knowledge of Life and DEATH.

Jesus Christ did not have a heart attack or anything close to that!
Nailed on the Cross.......He was pierced..
Security was placed at the Tomb, with Strict orders!


"except one be born of water and of the Spirit, one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" (John. 3:34)
This is babtism......a renewel of being born again in Christ......the Old Testament practised circumsicion, in which was a pre figuration of the coming Babtism in Christ...to die with Christ , is to be born again, In Christ.
Two natures/the Body and Soul.
The Body was created out of the Earth.
The Soul......created by God breathing LIFE into man.


Why does it matter if Christ did not Rise from the Dead ?
If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins (1 Cor. 15:14, 17).
This is exactly why!
But Christ abolished original sin and cleansed the fallen Adam (Ephes, 1:7)
With His divine blood He raises man into a new creation (1 Cur. 15.13-26)
Christs Resurrection is Paradise lost , now regained with the Sacrifice God made.
If Jesus Christ was not who He said He was, then should not We wait for the One that shall come?
Who is the 'One that shall come''?

helen

reply to post by koncept


Jesus had to die on the cross for the same reason he came here to earth as a man. He came to be one of us and go through the things we go through. He came to conquer them. So when we go through them and we cry out to God and ask why we are going through what we are going through, He can comfort us. We know that he went through the same things we face and he conquered them. How much more can he take care of us.
Jesus also had to die on a cross because he had to fulfill of the Old Testament prophesies.

reply to post by pstrron


You said...

"Have you kept every one since birth? Ever tell a lie? Ever take something that did not belong to you, size or value does not matter a grain of rice will do? Have you always honored your mother and father, done everything they told you to do, no exceptions? This is only three of God's laws, there are another seven we have not even looked at. Breaking even one is called sin."



And here's my reply...

To begin with, using the bible to prove the bible, including the concept of sin in God's eyes, is foolishness to most logically thinking people. I've seen it done in this thread, and hundreds of times before, using scriptures to back up scriptures, including as proof of the resurrection, without ANY external proof sources at all. That's a major problem in the logic department.

Now... onto the things you had to say there. Let's go with the difference between LAW and ETHICS, and they are not always the same.


Let's take an example from recent history. Let us say that you are a member of a family living in Nazi Germany, and out of conscience, you have hidden a group of Jews in your attic.

One day, a group of gestapo comes to your house, and asks you, directly, "Are you hiding jews?"

God's LAW says that you are never, under any condition, to lie. it is a sin, and according to christianity (NOT JUDAISM) you will be damned to eternal hellfire for saying, "No, I am not hiding Jews".

ETHICS and TRUE morality says, in this instance, it is essential to lie, and say,"No there are no jews here". Not only will it save the lives of those innocent people, but will probably save your own, as well.

Do you see the difference? Which case would you do? Direct question there, and do not be intellectually dishonest. If you answer that you would lie to save those people, you are more moral than the God of the bible is. For he would never lie, and allow those people to die, sentencing them to death, himself, by his answer. Committing, essentially, murder, and likely, suicide.


And yet that is what you are commanding the people to face, is exactly that issue, when you try to use that argument for your favor.

How about another example... If you are a man who has lived an absolutely perfect life, according to the 10 commandments, living your entire life free from "sin", you would be considered to go to heaven, according to your theology.

Then one year a famine comes to your country. Your children starve, and are on their last gasps, literally. Without a scrap of food they will die. You, out of desperation to save their lives, steal a piece of bread and feed them. It is enough to get them through the famine, and from that moment on, again, your life is perfectly in line with the 10 commandments.

Now... according to your theology, that person is doomed to eternal hellfire, punished for billions upon billions of years, in unending torture, for stealing one piece of bread to save their child, in an otherwise absolutely perfect life.

How is that justice? How is that mercy? Again I will ask you, would YOU sentance someone to that, YOURSELF, in justice?

Don't be intellectually dishonest and try to pawn off that God is different, etc etc. Would YOU do it?

That's the questions that people need to ask, and it's tough, really tough.

By the way, if you read your bible closely, you'll find that the entire concept of hell and damnation did NOT come into being until after Jesus. The concept is nowhere in the old testament, only the new. The jews had no conception of hell until then. You would be punished for your sins within this life, and once you were dead, you were done. only upon Jesus's arrival did the concept of that eternal torture chamber come to be. Think about that one.

Without the resurrection of Christ, Christianity has no existance. It is that one and only thing that is the whole basis of it all

reply to post by helen670


No, no, NO, Helene, you show me the scriptural proof that mankind was created immortal. NOWHERE does it say that mankind was immortal before the fall, in any way, shape, or form. You may be able to INFER it by some scriptures, but it never says that we were to exist immortally in the garden of eden frm the start.

If all of creation was meant to be without death at the very onset, that includes by its very conception people, animals, plants and insets. EVERYTHING wihtout death, until the act of "sin" entered the world and the fall of mankind. I have heard the argument spouted by preachers for years, trying to claim that.

And yet they can never show the proof texts that say exactly that. Oh you can INFER it from a few, if you take them out of context. But that is exactly what believers try to scream at non-believers doing all the time when other scriptures are shown to show christianity in a bad light. They will have no qualms about doing it, themselves, when it suits the belief system they have formed for themselves.


The fact is that the Jews did not ever claim that creation, or mankind itself, was ever meant or created to be immortal. You'd think that the belief system that Christianity is based off of would have at least SOME of the concepts involved in it's daughter, but you see so much stuff piled in.

(sigh)

There' no concept of an eternal soul in the old testament. No concept of hell or eternal damnation. There's no concept of heaven as an eternal resting place for those who followed God. And you wonder why the jews supposedly rejected Jesus? The things he talked about, especially as regarding "eternal" had absolutely no place in the mindset of them.


So which is correct, is the biggest question, isn't it? But remember that all things must be included in the conception of God, including the old testament, or, perhaps better said, ESPECIALLY the old testament. Because Christ said that not one thing in the old testament was wrong, and all things in it were perfect. Never disputed a thing.

Kinda makes you have to wonder if things were added to him, doesn't it? Must at LEAST give one pause.

Originally posted by Mercenary2007
every one is entitled to there beliefs. But what i don't get is the blind followers that never question why this why that. why was this book left out and not this one. is it because most of the books that were left out contridicted the offical story being painted by the church? or was it because some of them hinted that jesus married and at the time of his crucifiction she was with child? or it contradicted his divinity? all import questions that people need to consider IMO.

It's called Intellectual Dishonesty. They cannot ask certain questions, because to do so, would mean that they would be faced with just how horrible the conception of what they have created really is.

And they just cannot do that.

I asked a couple questions above, trying to face people with the question of if they are more moral than God. Watch, if anyone actually faces the questions, they will likely dance around it entirely, or in the end make some excuse for God. Most of the time they will say that God is above his own laws, which throws everything out of the window. There's no scripture anywhere saying that God is above his own laws, and, in fact, quite the opposite.


I had to face them and I was honest enough to give an answer. That really did start me down the rabbit hole

Well I personally believe that the reason that GOD came down in flesh and suffered and died in the flesh for us all was to show mankind that he does understand us and that he will deliver us from death as he did JESUS the man ............Also that when you allow him in your life and your heart you will have the same power as Christ had to OVERCOME all things in this world that comes at you ..
Including DEATH >...


If for some reason he did not die (which I believe he did ) then it would make all of that NULL AND VOID and we would all be just sitting here waiting to die with no hope of anything else in the here and now or the after life (no power to overcome anything ) ..no after life ..no nothing ...but OVER >.DEAD THE END >.zilch ..

That is pretty depressing ...

Originally posted by scientist
reply to post by jpm1602

 

well technically, none of the books were written while jesus was supposed to have lived (which I dont believe) anyways. They are all written as spiritual accounts and supernatural visions. Not a single text written about jesus was written by one of his contemporaries. Unless I am mistaken, in which case I hope someone can put me straight.

The only one that is cannon that I suppose could be classified as being written by a contemporary would be the book of John. However, there's quite a bit of debate on whether it was written during his life time (most scholars say no, and attribute it to at least 5 decades later).

The rest were written quite a bit later, and by none who were followers of Christ during his lifetime. None at all written during his life directly. The closest that anyone has come is at least 30 years after the fact, and that is only for one book.


So yea, it is a problem. You have someone who supposedly did a lot of really incredible things, and apparently quite famous (given the reaction of the jews to his entrance to Jerusalem), and yet no outside sources written DURING his lifetime, to account for him at all.


Only after his death do we begin to see anything from historians, and it is only about the followers, not Jesus himself, that they write about. Sure there are a couple references to the man himself, but only as an aside, and debatable about whether the writers were referring to the actual man, or the construct.

Of course none of this proves if he did, or did not exist. My thoughts are that he did, but that the legend around him has grown deep and wide. But that's neither here not there. We're looking to prove the truth of the resurrection, and that one is problematic AT BEST... and frankly, the burden of proof belongs on the believers, NOT the non-believers.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Also that when you allow him in your life and your heart you will have the same power as Christ had to OVERCOME all things in this world that comes at you ..
Including DEATH >...


If for some reason he did not die (which I believe he did ) then it would make all of that NULL AND VOID and we would all be just sitting here waiting to die with no hope of anything else in the here and now or the after life (no power to overcome anything ) ..no after life ..no nothing ...but OVER >.DEAD THE END

As to overcoming all things in the world that come at you, that is nice to think about... but in practice difficult, at best, to apply, isn't it? Will it stop a bullet coming my way? Overcoming death? There's a lot of dead christians ... but i know what you meant.

The fact is there are many belief systems that have been around far longer than Christianity which say the exact same things. reincarnation, karma, zen, what have you... Christianity is NOT the end all and be all as far as overcoming death and eternal matters are concerned. Not by a long shot.

And as to overcoming things when you are alive? It's called the placebo affect, and it's mightily powerful. If you believe something is going to help you, it will. And that's been proven scientifically for years, in many case studies.

That does not require one to accept christ to have, does it? That's one problem with that argument, and it's a dishonest one, in the end. To say it's the only thing, the end all and be all, is wrong.

But do you see how you worded things there? If he did not exist, then it would make it all null and void. So it is in the best interest of the survival of the church, and your own belief, to, no matter what, believe that it is all true. Despite ANY evidence or logic to the contrary.

And that's a problem. It leads to people being blinded for their own survival as a believer. It makes one dance mightily around in their minds and hearts to keep perpetuating the belief under any circumstance.


And I know, people will say it is a matter of faith. Precisely what I just said, in simple terms.

As has been said many times, however.. what you want to believe is fine, and I'd never disparage you from it. Far from that, I think that spirituality is utterly important to us as humans. But that spirituality can come in many different forms, and there's no way to prove if one is right or wrong, the same as your own. It's belief that it works, the placebo effect, and, it DOES work. The same for you with your belief in Christ, as it does for a zen buddhist sitttin on a mountaintop


The problem, of course, comes in proselytizing and condemning anyone for holding a different viewpoint than your own. I've seen many of your posts, and do not think that you, yourself, display that attitude. But there's far more who do, than don't.