Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?? So What??

Originally posted by koncept
Since the time of Jesus, his death on the cross has been hotly debated.

Yes it has!
But If I may ask you,who are theses people?
This will always occur and always will be debated and won over by the Scriptures....

While I certainly understand that Jesus' death on the cross is a cornerstone to the Christian faith, there is something I simply cannot understand.
Why is it a "bad" thing if Jesus didn't die on the cross?

It is not only the cornerstone, but is the Truth!
The Cross is a sign of Victory over Death conquered!
Christ fullfilled all the Old Testament prophecies ...beginning in Genesis.
The Tree symbolized 'life and death'.......Death began with Adam and Eve....
Redemption came from the Cross....because the Cross was curse, in the Old Testament...foreshadowings of the Cross in many biblical events:
the marking of the doorposts with the blood of the paschal lamb;
the brass serpent which Moses set up in the desert;(serpant in the Garden of Eden)
and the sealing of the righteous with a mystical sign upon their foreheads, as described in the book of the Prophet Ezekiel and in the Apocalypse (See Exod. 12:7-13; Num. 21: 8-9; Ezek. 9:4; Rev. 7:3, 9:4, 14:1)

Let's say Jesus did indeed survive the crucifixion. All accounts of him after this time are as great and positive as the accounts of him before the crucifixion. So, where is the negative in his surviving?

The negative is that He becomes nothing more, then just a MAN!
The Resurrection of Christ is what fullfilled the Old Testament Prophecies and what the Prophets spoke of!

If he did indeed survive, he lived on to spread his message of peace and love to many more than he would have had he actually died on the cross.

He taught what He came to teach....as was foretold by the Old Testament Prophets...fullfilling all that was to be fullfilled......He chose 12 Apostles to spread the Word....

Is it really worse in the eyes of some for Jesus to have survived the crucifixion than it is for him to have died on the cross?

Yes, because then 'our Faith is lost!
It would make Jesus Christ not as He promised.....He would then, not be the one that was prophesied by All Prophets of the Old Testament!
'For the Jews require a sign and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified,
unto the Jews a stumbling-block, and unto the Greeks foolishness.'
(I Cor. 1, 22-23

If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins (1 Cor. 15:14, 17).

After all, the only thing that his surviving the cross hurts is religious dogma.
If Jesus did survive the cross and lived to spread peace and love for another 50 years, I simply do not see how that can be a "bad" thing.

Does not hurt Religious Dogma at all.
Christ fullfilled all that was written.....this He came to do and did.

helen

reply to post by helen670


Actually, since everything you just posted is religious dogma that would be totally negated had Jesus not died on the cross, I still stand by my statement that the ONLY thing his living would have hurt would be religious dogma.

What is so bad about "just a man" being a truly GREAT and CARING individual? Knowing the level of evil that many humans are so easily capable of, I would think that being a ray of light and hope amidst the darkness is something truly worthy of praise. But hey, that's just me.

KON

Originally posted by koncept
reply to post by helen670

 

Actually, since everything you just posted is religious dogma that would be totally negated had Jesus not died on the cross, I still stand by my statement that the ONLY thing his living would have hurt would be religious dogma.

What is so bad about "just a man" being a truly GREAT and CARING individual? Knowing the level of evil that many humans are so easily capable of, I would think that being a ray of light and hope amidst the darkness is something truly worthy of praise. But hey, that's just me.

KON

You could be the nicest guy on earth. The this is, if you've ever sinned, you fall short from the glory of god. The only way to the father is the son. That is Jesus Christ. Our lord and savior. Which means you have to repent and accept Jesus as our god in order to go to heaven and follow his ways.

Originally posted by Yessy

You could be the nicest guy on earth. The this is, if you've ever sinned, you fall short from the glory of god. The only way to the father is the son. That is Jesus Christ. Our lord and savior. Which means you have to repent and accept Jesus as our god in order to go to heaven and follow his ways.

Sorry, but I've never sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Those are the lies that religion has instilled in you from birth. You believe them because you have been taught to believe them and know no better.

Look at the wonder that is your life. Is this a curse? Has God forsaken you? Is life a burden you must bare like a cross? Is it terrible?

No, It is not.

Life is a gift from the one that created all things and to say it is terrible is to spit in the face of the one that granted it to you. It is to be an ingrate for the greatest gift you will ever receive.

Religion is the lie, God is the truth. Someday I hope you learn to distinguish between the two.

Love and light,

reply to post by koncept

Actually, since everything you just posted is religious dogma that would be totally negated had Jesus not died on the cross, I still stand by my statement that the ONLY thing his living would have hurt would be religious dogma.

What is so bad about "just a man" being a truly GREAT and CARING individual? Knowing the level of evil that many humans are so easily capable of, I would think that being a ray of light and hope amidst the darkness is something truly worthy of praise. But hey, that's just me.

There is nothing bad about Jesus Christ being ''just a man'' a great and caring individual'',but the fact still remains that Jesus Christ accomplished all that was written...
by accomplishing all that was written, Jesus Christ became not just an everyday 'great and caring individual', but a 'Fullfilled a promissing prophecy'spoken by the many great Prophets.
We all know that many can become 'Great and caring individuals'.

And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent (John 17:3).
When the Logos(The WORD) became human (John 1:14)
As spoken of in the Old Testament.......

Since the time of Jesus, his death on the cross has been hotly debated.
While I certainly understand that Jesus' death on the cross is a cornerstone to the Christian faith, there is something I simply cannot understand.
Why is it a "bad" thing if Jesus didn't die on the cross?

Back to the original Post!
Yes,It is a ''bad'' thing because the Fullfillement of the Old Testament Prophets still awaits!

helen

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
What are you even talking about?

Jesus never existed. The bible was proven to be a hoax.

seriously like everyone else said wheres the proof.


im not christian or religous but before i make any statement about my beleifs i research both sides hence my questions.

dont judge people or tell people they are wrong unless you have 100% proof

Rofl kerrichin. Don't accuse people of not having 100 percent proof. So where do you keep this time machine of yours you went to see the non crucifiction yourself. Must be worth a fortune. Please!

How do we really know that christ fullfilled everything he was suppose to have done?

With all due respect the bible was written years after his death. And the bible that we have today is not the full story. The catholic church has kept alot of the cannons secret and out of the bible. And when the bible was written it was written by commitee and the church decided which stories will go in the "offical" story and the contridicting stories were withheld. And until the church releases all the cannons of the bible, the bible will always be an incomplete work.

Now to the OP The catholic church has always had the opinion that for the world to buy their story about jesus They had to make him more godly, even thou he was just a mortal man, fathered and mothered to a mortal couple. except to sell their story they took out the part about who is father really was. But just as i can't prove my theory neither can the blind believers disprove it outside of the bible.

Now i'll give you something else to think about. The church and the bible says Jesus never fathered a child correct? well what if he did and there was a living decendant of christ walking this earth as we speak, what would that do to the church and all the blind followers?

Sorry but not one thing in the bible can be proven outside of the bible, and if this was a ufo, or a government story we'd all be screaming hoax or conspiracy.

If anyone is offended by my post sorry but this is what i believe and you don't have to believe it if you don't want to, just as i choose not to blindly follow some stories in a book just because some one says i have to.

reply to post by Mercenary2007


Hi/
The Old Testament is HISTORY, whether one chooses to see it or not!
It is proof enough that all that was written in the 'Old Testament' has been fullfilled!
Scriptures in the Old Testament are proof enough.....and so was the LOGOS of Christ...
Whether someone believes it or not, it is a matter of ones opinion .

The Old Testament is Hebrew Scripture or Tanakh,
and is composed of the Law or Torah, the Prophets or Neviim, and the Writings or Ketuvim.
The three-fold division of Hebrew Scripture was evident at the time of Jesus, who referred to "The Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms [Luke 24:44]."
The Old Testament was composed in Hebrew, except for the following written in Aramaic - Genesis 31:47, Jeremiah 10:11, Ezra 4:8-6:18 and 7:12-26, and nearly half of the Book of Daniel 2:4-7:28.
The writings of the Old Testament were preserved in three languages - Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and have been passed on to us mainly through 4 manuscripts: the Greek Septuagint from Alexandria; the Masoretic Hebrew text; the newly discovered Dead Sea Scrolls of the Essenes; and the Targums, Old Testament Books translated into Aramaic.
The differing traditions have led to the disparity found in the Old Testament canons among major religions.

SOURCE

helen

reply to post by koncept

What is so bad about "just a man" being a truly GREAT and CARING individual? Knowing the level of evil that many humans are so easily capable of, I would think that being a ray of light and hope amidst the darkness is something truly worthy of praise. But hey, that's just me.

"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us." C.S. Lewis

Either He is who He says He is or He is not. I prefer to believe Him to be who He said He was. For this I have nothing to loose but all to gain. Should you decide to choose the other way then you have all to loose and nothing gain. This is of course with the passing of events make its self evident one way or the other. Only one position can be correct and I am not a gambling man so should it turn out that I was wrong in following Jesus I will have lost nothing but still gained by being a better human to my fellow man. However, I preferred to put God first and to love my neighbor as myself. Though I must admit I fall a little short of the mark but I still try. Nothing to loose, all to gain.

Reply to mrwupy:

Sorry, but I've never sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Those are the lies that religion has instilled in you from birth. You believe them because you have been taught to believe them and know no better.

The word sin means to fall short of the standard that God has set. Saying we have not sinned in itself is not true going by God's standard. God's law is the ten commandments, the standard He uses to define "sin". Have you kept every one since birth? Ever tell a lie? Ever take something that did not belong to you, size or value does not matter a grain of rice will do? Have you always honored your mother and father, done everything they told you to do, no exceptions? This is only three of God's laws, there are another seven we have not even looked at. Breaking even one is called sin. This is not a personal attack just trying to make a point regarding the word "sin".

It is up to you to either accept or reject no one should ever force anyone. You are free to accept the definition or reject it.

[edit on 1/2/2008 by pstrron]

Originally posted by kerrichin
i see im statring to understand i always wondered mhy hed die for humanities sins but then get resuurected.

still when was his second death per say because i never seem to hear about it.

im really interested in the historical jesus and the early history of christianity and all.

First, let me say that I am the furthest thing from a religious scholar. What I'm going to say comes strictly from what I believe to be the case and NOT from scripture or anything like that.

I think that your idea of Jesus being resurrected was that he got down from the cross and continue to live amongst man for many years. However, that is not how it supposedly went down. After Christ died on the cross, his body was placed in a cave and sealed shut. At least this is how I remember it to have been. I believe it was three days later that he was resurrected and rose up to Heaven to sit beside his father, God. When the cave was searched, his remains were no longer there. That is the resurrection, in a nutshell, that you are speaking of.

I hope I accurately understood your question and I hope that I answered it correctly, in layman's terms! I'm sure there are many people on here who can fill you in on the details and correct any of the mistakes that I wrote. But I believe that I basically covered the main points.

reply to post by Rasputin13


thanks for the info i feel really bad because i just read my message and didnt realise id made so many spelling mistakes.
ill check before posting next time

i do know the part that he was took off the cross and put in him tomb or cave (cant remember which one) and when mary magdalene went to his tomb he was alive and all that.
i just want to know if there is any scripture about how long he lived after he was resurrected and what he died of.

im just interested because you never hear much about him after the resurrection compared to him birth or him miricles or the crusifixion

i also wonder if he may have performed any miricles second time around (according to the bible anyway) or if when he was resurrected he was just an ordinary man that time per say.


anyway thanks for you info and sorry agin for the spelling mistakes

Originally posted by evanmontegarde

Originally posted by MissInformation
Christians believe his death on the cross was necessary for spiritual redemption from sin. Without his death (according to christian beliefs) human salvation wouldn't be possible.

Yep. The phrase "died for your sins" kind of needs the dying part to work.

I think god if he exists just needed a loophole to bypass his own laws about how humanity should act, wasn't there going to be another flood wiping the land of evil do-ers if jesus didn't die for our sins so we could all be forgiven?


I'm probably wrong though

Anyway how can one mans deeds redeem a planet of sinners (not saying everyone was a sinner), talk about eqaulity

I just love how people can make blanket statements of 'truth' 'non truth' on events 2000 plus years ago. Are they John Titor's twin time traveller? Are they advanced mental gurus who can traverse time and see things in real time?
I too, do not advocate everything written, including the bible should be believed. That said, you cannont disclaim it either.

reply to post by helen670


your right "Whether someone believes it or not, it is a matter of ones opinion ."

But unless you have a time machine how do you honestly know if the bible is true or not? Out of all the people that lived durring that time where is the handing down of the story from generation to generation thru their family lines? I have yet to hear any such stories, have you? Everything contained in the bible can only be proven thru the bible there is no outside collaberation.

And what about the missing books of the bible? why were they kept out ot the bible?
heres a list of 20 just encase you don't know which ones they are.

1. The book of the covenant - Ex 24:4, 7*
2. The book of the wars of the Lord - Num 21:14
3. The manner of the kingdom recorded by Samuel - 1 Sam 10:25*
4. The book of Jasher - Josh 10:13; 2 Sam 1:18
5. A book of statutes - 1 Sam 10:25
6. The book of the acts of Solomon - 1 Kings 11:41
7. The book of Samuel the seer - 1 Chron 29:29
8. The book of Nathan the Prophet - 1 Chron 29:29; 2 Chron 9:29
9. The book of Gad the seer - 1 Chron 29:29
10. The prophecy of Ahijah 2 Chron 9:29
11. The visions of Iddo the seer - 2 Chron 9:29; 12:15; 13:22
12. The book of Shemaiah the prophet - 2 Chron 12:15
13. The book of Jehu - 2 Cron 20:34
14. The acts of Uzziah recorded by Isaiah - 2 Chron 26:22*
15. The sayings of the seers - 2 Chron 33:19
16. An epistle of Paul to the Corinthians - 1 Cor 5:9
17. An epistle to Paul to the Ephesians- Eph 3:3
18. An epistle to Paul to the Laodiceans - Col 4:16
19. An additional epistle to Jude - Jude 1:3
20. The prophecies of Enoch - Jude 1:14
source

But since the church decided to keep those writings from the bible how can anyone say the bible is complete and true? You can't

The church used the story of jesus to shape a religion for their own good and since that time we have been told this is gods work and his word and you have to believe it or else. well sorry i choose not to believe a book just because some old guys 2000 years ago says i have to!

Wheres the Arc that Noah built?

Since jesus was a mortal man wheres his body? only his spirit would have been resurrected.

If we are all the sons and daughters of Isreal as proclaimed by the bible then why is there so many different races in the human world? wouldn't we all be the same?

If there was only 1 god why would he allow us to worship gods by other names?

We can debate this everyday and in the end you'll only hate me and pull your hair out. since there isn't anyway outside of the bible to back up its claims.

And yes if your wondering i came from a very religious family and when i was old enough to understand things and ask questions and make my own decisions i choose not to continue to follow something i could not believe cause its not based in fact but in peoples and an organizations view of what that part of history was.

edit for some spellings

[edit on 3-1-2008 by Mercenary2007]

It was my understanding that once Jesus was resurrected, he didn't stay around and hang out. He almost immediately assended, body and all, to Heaven.

Of course this is coming from a guy who fell asleep in Sunday school and doesn't remember much of what was taught when he was awake! I made my First Holy Communion, but never made it to Confirmation. I'm a member of the Episcopal Church and our rector is a good, down-to-Earth guy who is not only a professional wrestling fan, but also listens to Metallica! So it goes without saying that the church I attend is rather liberal and we don't take every single word of every single part of the Bible literally. We aren't anti-gay, anti-divorse or anything like that. And I know it's an unrelated subject, but I hate when Christian-bashers lump all Christians together and make general statements about our beliefs and about the contradictions of the Bible. Just because some people and some religions take every single word to be gospel, does not mean that all of us do. I am personally interested in some of the missing books that weren't including in the Bible, especially the Gospel of Thomas, which in part implies that you don't need to go to a church every Sunday and worship. It says more or less that the house of God is in all of our houses and his spirit is among all of us (in my own words).

Anyway, the reason why you don't read much about Jesus after the resurrection is because he almost immediately ascended to Heaven. He didn't stay around and go on tour or perform miracles. He basically hit the road (ie: went to Heaven to be seated next to the Father).

Once again, this is all coming from an extremely liberal (religiously speaking, not politically speaking) Christian who is not well-versed in Biblical history or religion in general. I hope that someone who is more knowledgeable on the subject can clarify and/or correct what I said. I was just trying my best to answer the questions posed by some in this thread about Jesus' resurrection and why there wasn't a second death.

the reason i think they think its bad is because they are already using the cross as a great symbol of christianity, so if they find out jesus died of heart attack what are they going to do carry a heart around, besides the cross etched in stone in too many churches

So many hidden agendas claiming to 'know' historical events of 2000 years ago. The ignorance oozes. "So what". Sigh. We must have some really awesome mental time travellers out there.

Originally posted by koncept
Why is it a "bad" thing if Jesus didn't die on the cross?

because like anything in the bible or biblical story.. once you start picking at one thing, the entire story falls apart, unless you read it allegorically.. in which case there never was a crucifixion anyways.

The quickest way to tell someone has little faith, is to see who tries to suppress or discredit such a discussion before it has a chance to begin.

Scientist, nice points. It gave me pause to think. Why have seven disciples compose books? Could it have been to throw a few bread crumbs out to the masses to ponder the similarites? Ok, I'm naked and unarmed, the atheists and whackjobs can now commence to beat me with sticks with nails in them.