Some Christians are Non-Believers

ALRIGHT...who's up next, for the firing squad?!??!

I kidding here folks...didn't cha know?

Seriously,

Why do people get so riled up. (rhetorical)

We know all the answers don't we.

I don't feign to know everything.

I'm willing to bet that from now on (this second forward), that I won't know the answers to the universe...til the day I die.

Occam posted in my thread not too long ago. I was thinking about what he said.

The dear soul said: (paraphrasing)

"It's more important to focus on (right now) HOW we treat each other, taking care of our children properly, and being kind to one another."

I've used this saying in my signiture before:

Religion is man-made, but faith comes from God. It's going to take someone bigger and better than ourselves...to figure it all out.

I'm not one of those people who will 'shove it down yer throats'.

I wouldn't like it done to me.

I love how my life is going RIGHT NOW...here and now. I have the 'best' of many worlds.

There were times when I stood on both sides of the fence. Bet you didn't know that about me...did you?

I have my views about life. I chose my actions.

I'm not sitting in a 'lazy-boy' chair about anything.

Absence of evidence only strengthens my searching. I'm greedy...I want to know.

If I stop searching...I'm dead.

Dead, as in the words: "I'm a 'know-it-all'. I know everthing. I can't stand people like that. I would hate 'me' if I became that...in this mortal life.

What happens after we die...remains to be seen.

In the meantime, I have strength...it's my OWN personal strength; enough to 'connect' with those around me and abroad. Albeit 'Spiritual', it contains ethical means of support.- worded differently from others...

But,

Paraphrased along the same light as our member Occam.

Whether people believe it or not, we are ALL connected

I choose to work with Science AND Ethical/Spiritual means.

Someone once asked me this question:

"What is the biggest ROOM in the world?"

The answer:

"The Room to improve."

~Ducky~

Originally posted by Occam
They follow his ethical teachings and consider themselves Christians even though they do not believe he was a god.

It'd be rather tough to follow his teachings and not believe HE IS. These particular folks say then do something bass-ackwards.

Wonder if deep down inside folks know HE IS and choose to reject him, yet hope that if they continue to honor him somewhat with their lips, they will somehow earn his approval rather than be burned alive?

Stuff just makes no sense. Why not just be wicked and live wicked, rather than wearing a christian costume?

Originally posted by Occam
Of course, there are narrow minded christians who will claim that these people are not true christians.

The way is narrow. So would it not reason well that a mind on that way would also be narrow?

Originally posted by Occam
I suggest that anyone who would claim that obviously doesn't really understand what Jesus was trying to teach.

I suggest that anyone that denies what he said that before Abraham was HE IS, they are denying him and therefore antichrists. Yet even if they do believe that, so do the devils.

Originally posted by Occam
And, as such, as much as they swear they are the REAL christians, down deep they certainly are not.

Occam

I'm fully persuaded that the Good Shepherd will have no problem doing the sorting.

reply to post by WiseSheep


Do you mean He Is, as in the I am?

Can you expand on the meaning of I Am, a little bit? I have a particular understanding that the deeper meaning of the Name given to Moses from the burning bush is, "I am what ever and who ever that I decide that I am".

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Do you mean He Is, as in the I am?

Yes, as in when he said, "except you believe I AM, you will die in your sins." Or as in "Before Abraham was I AM".

HE IS. Although believing a load of brain data is one thing. Being born again, is another.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Can you expand on the meaning of I Am, a little bit?

I AM as in THE I AM. The Holy One of Israel. The LORD of Hosts. The Alpha and Omega. The one who was, is and is to come. The one who was dead and now is alive forever. The one who said let there be light and there was light. The bread of life, that if any man eat, he'll never taste death. The fountain of living waters, that if any man is thirsty, go to him and drink. The one who speaks a word and the dead hear it and live. The WORD, that was made flesh and dwelt among us. The light that lights all men, that darkness cannot comprehend.

I could go on and on and on and on.

The scripture plainly says that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is God. I still don't know why some people don't get it and believe more their own opinions. Read the Bible please! Otherwise, what kind of Bible are you reading?


John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'"

--

The Word is Jesus Christ. He is God. He became flesh. He is still God.


Hebrew 1:3

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

--

Jesus Christ is the exact representation of God.

Hebrews 1

8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy." 10 He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

--

God the Father calls His son God. God the Father calls His son Lord. Jesus Christ calls His God, Father.


So now, according to pure Biblical scriptures we have:

1. The Word is Jesus Christ. He is God. He became flesh. He is still God.
2. Jesus Christ is the exact representation of God.
3. God the Father calls His son God. God the Father calls His son Lord. Jesus Christ calls the His God, Father.

These are the testimonies of God regarding His Son. There are many more scriptures in the Bible besides this which testifies and confirms Jesus is the Son of God and is God.

This is not too difficult to understand. Its not according to my opinion, but according to God's testimony.

1 John 5:10

Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.


If we don't believe this simple testimony about Jesus Christ, according to scriptures, you are a liar.

[edit on 31-12-2007 by amitheone]

The One we know as Christ was the first begotten son of God. Son of God translates to "angelic or spirit being". This son of god created the world and all that is in it. (Let US create....). He existed before Abraham but he was not the Almighty One. All the spirit beings (angels) existed before Abraham. Although exceptionally long-lived, there are no verses that confirm that angelic beings are immortal. Only the Almighty One is immortal. (Christ is NOW immortal, having been resurrected to the divine nature which, among other things, is immortal.)

Christ gave up his angelic nature to become a MAN. A human being. He had to learn obedience. Why would GOD have to learn obedience? He suffered, he hungered, he wept, he died an actual death. Could GOD ALMIGHTY suffer or be hungry or weep or die? I think not. Christ also asked questions. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Either he was putting on a show; a sham or he truly didn't know the answer. How could GOD forsake GOD?

Christ was made a perfect human being but he was not the Almighty One. He gave up his heavenly existence and pre-eminent position as the first begotten of the Almighty to become a man obedient unto death. His reward was to be given the divine nature and immortality. This is the same reward "overcoming" Christians are offered. We are not currently immortal (or even perfect human beings as was Christ) but our faith is "reckoned" as righteousness if we are faithful to the end.

That is my Christian faith. It's not important or necessary to me to squabble with other Christians or unbelievers about all the religious doctrines that have muddied the plain truth of the scriptures. Religion is a waste of faith. Doctrines and theological debates are a waste of mind. I quest for the One Who is Truth. It's not a popular or well-travelled path.

Originally posted by Shawn B.
Jesus like all of us are the sons and daughters of God.

I thought we were the sons and daughters of MAN not God, like Whitewave says "Son of God translates to "angelic or spirit being"." We aint that, the sons of God are angels.

reply to post by dbates


I do not even believe he was a good man. He himself said there is no one who is good but the Father in heaven.

The One we know as Christ was the first begotten son of God. Son of God translates to "angelic or spirit being". This son of god created the world and all that is in it. (Let US create....). He existed before Abraham but he was not the Almighty One. All the spirit beings (angels) existed before Abraham. Although exceptionally long-lived, there are no verses that confirm that angelic beings are immortal. Only the Almighty One is immortal. (Christ is NOW immortal, having been resurrected to the divine nature which, among other things, is immortal.)

According to what I understood in your explanation, Jesus Christ is only an angelic being. Being an angelic being, he is mortal. Angels are mortal beings. Only the Almighty God is immortal. Jesus being mortal became flesh, a mortal again to gain the divine nature of immortality.

It was a lie after all that Jesus was God, an immortal being. It was a lie that He was the Word and the Word became flesh, and the Word was God. This verse was also lying when it testifies that the Word was God and became flesh:

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Jesus Christ was lying after all as well when He said this verse:

Luke 20

34 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

He was lying when He said, “and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. As you have said there are no verses that confirm that angelic beings are immortal.

So, we should all base our understanding according to what your opinion says, but not according to scriptures?

Please kindly state what Bible you have, the KJV or NIV or the New World Translation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Christ gave up his angelic nature to become a MAN. A human being. He had to learn obedience. Why would GOD have to learn obedience? He suffered, he hungered, he wept, he died an actual death. Could GOD ALMIGHTY suffer or be hungry or weep or die? I think not. Christ also asked questions. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Either he was putting on a show; a sham or he truly didn't know the answer. How could GOD forsake GOD?

As what I understood, you do not recognize Jesus as God. He was just a sinless man.

Then according to this verse, God the Father was lying as well when He called Jesus God and Lord:

Hebrews 1

8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy." 10 He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

God the Father calls His son God. God the Father calls His son Lord. Jesus Christ calls His God, Father. The Father says of His Son, “Your years will never end”. This verse is a lie after all. For Jesus was just a mortal angel subject to death.

As you have said there are no verses that confirms that angelic beings are immortal. Then, I ask, what Bible are you carrying? KJV, NIV, RSV and etc all carries the same testimony. I wonder what kind of Bible you have.

So, all Christians should believe you instead of a lying scripture? Do you want us to agree with your opinion or God’s testimony?


The Son of God, the Word who is God became flesh to save mankind. No man can ever conquer his fleshly nature. No man can overcome sin. Everything a man does is sinful. Man by himself is utterly helpless for he cannot overcome sin. For every thought of man is evil continually. God needed to step in to save mankind. He transformed Himself to a human being, being the likeness of a servant being subjected to God, obeying Him till death. God stepped in to be an example for what the children of God should be, and that is according to God’s likeness, full of love and grace and obedience. He was in the flesh, but He did not sin. He suffered as a human being, tempted as a human being, felt as a human being, having emotions as a human being, but the Son of God, the Word conquered the weak flesh and did not sin. He was victorious!

Being unblemished, God was the perfect sacrifice. He was the perfect unblemished lamb as a sacrifice for sin once and for all and whosoever believes in Him, will have eternal life.

Not because He became flesh in order to be divine, in order to gain immortality and God like status. He was DIVINE already to start with. He stepped in and humbled Himself, became flesh like us, for He loved us so much and that God knew the men is slaved to his flesh and tempted so easily. For there is not one human being who did not sin to qualify for eternal life. Everyone was condemned for death already. So, God made a plan, He overcame sin for all of us by transforming Himself to a human being. He is the exact representation of God. Only God can overcome sin.


...continued

[edit on 1-1-2008 by amitheone]

Christ was made a perfect human being but he was not the Almighty One.

It does not matter who is the Almighty One, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. For Jesus Christ is the exact representation of God the Father. He is the express image of God. For they are one. They are inseparable.

For it is written:

John 10:30

I and the Father are one."

John 17:11

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.

1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

John 14:8

Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

That is my Christian faith. It's not important or necessary to me to squabble with other Christians or unbelievers about all the religious doctrines that have muddied the plain truth of the scriptures. Religion is a waste of faith. Doctrines and theological debates are a waste of mind. I quest for the One Who is Truth. It's not a popular or well-travelled path.

It is very much necessary because so that errors can be corrected and the false teaching exposed and avoided. We do not follow men’s teaching but God’s teachings.

What you have stated here is not supported by the Bible at all. You are right in saying that its not popular or well traveled path simply because its full of errors.

It doesn’t take a theologian to spot the errors. I’m not one. I read the Bible and I can clearly understand it.

I hope you can see the light and read the Bible for yourself.

Thanks for your time.

Originally posted by ben91069
reply to post by dbates

 

He himself said there is no one who is good but the Father in heaven.

Thats because He has a very humble nature. He made himself of no reputation taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

It is written:

John 8:54

Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 8

50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it and he will be the judge.

--

Jesus did not claim to be good to glorify Himself, rather He instead glorifies the Father and the Father glorifies Him.

Same thing here on this verse:

Matthew 6

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. 2 "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


So, when you do good things, do it in secret. Do not parade and expect a pat at your back and get the praises of men. Everything should be done for God's glory, not your glory. God will likewise reward you.

Chasing the heavenly Foofighter

I find it not laudable but sad that someone would follow another person's moral teachings instead of discovering and formulating his own morality. Psychopaths excluded, we all have minds of our own and an innate sense of justice and fairness. How lazy and foolish, then, to slavishly follow somebody else's ideas of what is right and wrong!

People who think Jesus was God at least have the excuse that they are obeying divine law when they follow what they think are his teachings. Those who don't believe he was God have absolutely no excuse.

* * *

On a different note, I see that the excellent dbates is back at his well-known game of tendentiously selective citation. If he is aware of the Testimonium Flavianum, then he is almost certainly aware that scholars from the seventeenth century onward have considered it a Christian forgery. For a simple account of the invalidation of the Testimonium, go here.

reply to post by amitheone


Thanks for your input, AITO. I find it interesting that you quote John 17:11. "That they may be one as we." Are we to be members of the "godhead", then? As divine and immortal as the Almighty and His alter ego, Christ (who you claim WAS the Almighty in the flesh)? John 17 is a wonderful prayer BY Christ TO the Father. Was he talking to himself?

I think the confusion arises out of the terms "god" and "lord". God is a title, not a name, as is Lord. God means "mighty one". Lord means a ruler. Even human men in the bible are refered to as "lords". Satan is refered to as the "god of this world". Is he divine? Of course not but he is a mighty one; he is a ruler.

The translators of the bible have (mostly) all made the same mistake: the substitution of the Almightys' name for a title. It was probably done with the best of intentions. In order to safeguard the Divine Majesty in the minds of men and to prevent the inconsiderate mention of Him before whom seraphs veil their faces. Where you see the terms "god" and "lord", the Septuagint completely concealed the Divine Name by substituting "Kurios" or "Dominus" which correspond to the Hebrew "Adonay", meaning "Lord", which, in itself is a less sacred name/title than the Divine name. Jesus (Yahvahshua, contracted form is Yahshua) was A god, A ruler. He was not THE (Almighty) GOD. This comment in no way detracts from His attributes or sacrifice.

Since this thread was not originally about Father vs. Son and the topic IS rather involved (and apparently controversial), I'll leave you with the above offering. I was not trying to prove my believes are more or less scriptural than yours or that I'm right and you're wrong or any other childish endeavor. I merely attempted to clear up a common misconception that keeps cropping up. If you're interested in various translations, you may want to consider "Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible" put out by Missionary Dispensary Bible Research, Pilgrim Acres, Route 1, Box 539, Emory, Tx. 75440. Also, a good Hebrew-English dictionary is helpful.
L&L. Also, in the memorable words of SO; "Civility and Decorum are expected."

Originally posted by amitheone

Originally posted by ben91069
reply to post by dbates

 

He himself said there is no one who is good but the Father in heaven.

Thats because He has a very humble nature.

So you think that he said it only out of humility and not that he meant what he said? I don't understand how you can defend that he was good when he says it is impossible for man, and the story claims he came as a man.

Originally posted by whitewave
That is my Christian faith. It's not important or necessary to me to squabble with other Christians or unbelievers about all the religious doctrines that have muddied the plain truth of the scriptures. Religion is a waste of faith. Doctrines and theological debates are a waste of mind. I quest for the One Who is Truth. It's not a popular or well-travelled path.

We need to realize that most of the New Testament is a discussion about theological issues.
Every one of Paul's letters were responses to some theological arguement or question.

So was it a waste of Paul's time, and even Jesus' time, to squabble with unbelievers about the One Who is Truth?

And, if you are to stay consistent in your logic, then you shouldn't concern yourself with the Scriptures at all. (no sarcasm or malice intended.)

Refreshing. Whitewave is absolutely correct on their interpretation of Almighty vs. Mighty God. Very well done.

reply to post by amitheone



I am one of those people who believes that the Bible has been corrupted by the hands of man. I do not trust what has been written in a book that has been interpreted many times in many different languages.

We've been at this many times. You believe everything the bible says and that is great for you. It doesn't work that way for everyone.

reply to post by amitheone


Using Hebrews to say that here is scriptural proof that Jesus is God does not really work. Hebrews may have been an attempt by a group of Christians to show, to Jews, that the Old Testament fortold Christ. They threw together a lot of verses from a Greek translation, in a not very expert manner. They do it in a way that is hard to ubderstand because they do not bother explaining how it applies to Jesus, or put it in any context. It does not explain who is saying what to who, or how to understand how the predictions are fulfilled, literaly or spiritualy, or when these were fulfilled or will be fulfilled.
If you think that it does say that Jesus is God, then it contradicts itself, and a lot of other parts of the Bible.

reply to post by holyTerror


I don't believe I said that faith or reading of scripture was a waste of time. The way we (I) get to know the One who is Truth is by prayer and reading the scripture. Without preconceived notions. Difficult to do, having had a religious (not spiritual) upbringing. Lots of indoctrination to overcome. For years I believed in hell, the trinity (which is not mentioned in the bible) and all sorts of religious nonsense. When one starts to read the scriptures with a studious mind and open heart all sorts of gems come shining through.

I concern myself with some of these issues because many genuine believers in Christ, lovers of our savior, deprive themselves of many riches of the faith. I don't care to argue with anyone but I am happy to share what I've learned to those who are interested. Not many takers, I'm sorry to say. Just like roots will hold a dead tree in place for years (until a strong wind comes along), religious ideologies and dogma will hold a Christian in a fixed position when Christ would rather we grow.

As for Christians being "non-believers", yes. Yes, I'm a non-believer when it comes to 3 "gods" taking up space in one body. An old man, a young man and a bird. How ridiculous! I am an unbeliever in Yahvah, who is the personification of Love, committing his children to an eternal suffering in flames. Neither doctrine is scriptural or consistent with the divine nature. I am a non-believer when it comes to the oh-so-popular "health and wealth" doctrine being spouted on the televangelist programs. Count me unbelieving regarding the magical rapture/get out of death free doctrine. My car will still be toting kids to after school activities and God is not my co-pilot. I believe a lot of things about the Almighty One but most of the tenets espoused by Christianity are not on the list.