Masonry and Compartmentalized Secrecy - Not So Easy To Dismiss

I give up. Can one resign from ATS? This is ridiculous!

[edit on 6-2-2008 by Appak]

Oi!
What happened to the last two posts?
What could be so bad that both of them had to be removed?

Originally posted by wu kung
Oi!
What happened to the last two posts?
What could be so bad that both of them had to be removed?

Wu,

If you have time and the inclination, you might want to browse through this thread and then this thread.

That'll give you a sense of the monkey business (so to speak) that's been going on around here.

Twitchy (the poster Appak was responding to) has something of a bee in his bonnet vis-à-vis Masonry and there's been something of a shakeout here.

"To you, Sovereign Instructors of Grade 33, we tell you: you have to repeat to the brothers of inferior grades that we worship only one God to whom we pray without superstition. It is we, Initiated in the Supreme Grade, that are to keep the real Masonic religion preserving pure the Lucifer doctrine."
-Albert Pike, 1889

You tell this stuff to a low level Freemason, and they look at you like you have 3 heads. It's the same deal with talking to a low level Scientologist about Xenu. You can't blame them for their ignorance. The truth of the higher levels is kept from them.

reply to post by ModernDystopia


Um...wait a sec...
so, the average person (such as yourself) has the exact same access to such...er...esoteric...writings such as Pike (*cough cough*) as we (the average person who just happens to be an actual Freemason) and we're the ignorant ones?

That's awesome.

reply to post by wu kung


You have the access to it, yet you and your constituents deny its existence or importance. Hence, your ignorance.

I've been thinking about this topic for a while. Is there a possibility that there can actually be an inner circle that most Masons do not know about that are working independently from Masonry, they just happen to be Masons? What better recruits, that THEY choose, than people that can be trusted. For what though?

I've read that the biggest lie that Satan(I'm not comparing anyone to Satan here) has told is that he doesn't exist. Masonry is a benevolent fraternity and that attracts like minded people. To think that the works of the fraternity could be used in anything that could be anything other than open works would seem unbelievable.

I'm not talking about "levels" here but a community that has a strong bond and loyalty. Could it not be possible that this is a "training ground" for a few that are chosen to do other things that are related to Masonry while actually not being part of the Craft?

Could something like this happen?

reply to post by intrepid

Is there a possibility that there can actually be an inner circle that most Masons do not know about that are working independently from Masonry, they just happen to be Masons? What better recruits, that THEY choose, than people that can be trusted. For what though?

Absolutely NOT.... and I will tell you why good sir.

If someone is opperating in a Secret manor away from .. main stream Masonry

It is therefore not associated with Masonry at all. It is.. irregular .. which irregular lodges and oranizations may use some sort of Masonic tradition.. they are not actual Masons by Regular Masonic standards. A good example is P2 (Propaganda 2) .. This lodge was irregular, was used as a political gentlemens club but was never associated with Regular Freemasonry .. Thus had noting to do with.. they where a seperate body. They could have chosen a million different names, groups, religions what have you to achieve their agenda BUT THEY WHERE NOT MASONS.

Could there be a group of Freemasons that control vast wealth and control over the economy?

Yes.

Do I think there is? .. No. I have some very wealthy family memebers and you'll never believe it..... they are normal, and poltiical ideologies differ greatly, but the wealth was created through traditional capitalist methods...... no secret group required.

There is a notion that all rich people are Masons. That all rich people are powerful.. which they are not.. and that all rich people are evil... which most are not at all..

Its bigotry on all sides.

However, assuming there WAS a secret Masonic Cabal that opperated under Masonry.. yet did not represent Freemasons under the UGLE they do not opperate as Masons.. thus, it does not matter what group they go under, but simply who they are, because they are their own entity.

Freemasonry is a elected system, the leader of the Grand Lodge is voted in for ONE year.. spending most of his time traveling to lodges and ceromonies..

The wealth of MY *Grand lodge is under 20 million dollars. I will tell you that much, but not the specific number. The majority of those funds are in various investments and cannot be touched. The majority of Lodges exist in small towns and many hardly pay their bills.

Some lodges like my own, which is properly funded, are only so because we work baseball games and such.. even those making 200K + a year work the base ball conession stands and such.

My point?

If there was a Cabal working UNDER Masonry, it would have to be FOR Masonry.. and the economic situation of the Grand Lodges shows that there is NO evidence what so ever of the leadership generating massive wealth for Masonry.

And not for themselves either.. our last MWM was an electrician.

for a few that are chosen to do other things that are related to Masonry while actually not being part of the Craft?

Oh this is possible.. its not likely to be the case exactly.. but the bottom line is it is not Masonic at all. The traits in the person that would be observed and elected would not represent Masonry either, and would not be a by-product of Masonry. Essentially it would be no different then recruiting from the Golf Club or the local Mens Club.

Also for this endevour of the type you are speaking of, Masonry does not support or train in any way like-mindedness in this fashion.. the only like-minded attitude in Masonry is a sense of self-betterment, to be apart of something bigger then your self, and brotherhood.

Political ideologies differ to the extremes (just watch some of us Masons on ATS talk politics....) and to be in an endevour similar to the NWO or even a smaller variation, like minded political ideas must be prevelent.. if not the system is shot. Also, the fundamentals of this NWO ideology is the generation and SHARING of wealth amongst a united Oligarchy... this goes against basic Human instict to garnish power for ones self, so a Cabal of a Oligarchy type system makes no sense.. the like-minded attitudes needed would have to be even deeper then basic economical politics.. but perhaps even down to faith, which Masonry is not like minded.

Basically..

Masonry is just to diverse.

Anyways.

I hope that can add to the argument Intrepid.



By the way... this is only my opinion, and not the opinion of all Brothren of Masonry.. it can differ vastly from person to person, which may strengthen my point. I do not represent Masonry. I represent myself as Masonry does not hold Beliefs regarding Economics or Politics as an entity.

EDIT: To fix "my lodge" to "My grand lodge"

Will edit dismal spelling later.

[edit on 2/7/2008 by Rockpuck]

reply to post by ModernDystopia


A low level Scientologist can read about Xenu, the evil galactic overlord, online. However, Scientology aggresively litigates anyone who tries to reveal the 'secrets' of their religion.

A supposed 'low level' Mason can read and view images of the 33rd degree ritual. On the other hand, Masonry and Mason do not pursue litigation against the revealing of our 'secrets'.

A rather poor analogy in my opinion.

reply to post by Rockpuck


First off, please don't refer to me as "sir" I work for a living like the rest of us here.

Are all Masons rich? Hell no. I work with a Mason that has to work overtime to support himself because of child support. A good coworker I might add.

Hypothetical situation:

The rest I'm a little confused about. Are you saying that once Masons act in a way that is about personal gain/power, they cease to be Masons?

Originally posted by ModernDystopia
reply to post by wu kung

 

You have the access to it, yet you and your constituents deny its existence or importance. Hence, your ignorance.

Wait, wait, wait, wait...
Okay, now stop talking for a second.
Right, okay, now look at your statement, read it thoroughly.
I'll wait until you're done.
...
...
...
...
Done, yes?
Alright, so, when exactly (and I'm gonna really need you to work for this one) did I deny Pike's existence or importance?
When I poked fun before, I was doing it at the statement about the man, not the man himself.
I'm not a Pike scholar, so I have no real opinion on him, nor is he the definitive voice for all of Freemasonry.
But if you're going to quote him I am curious of something...
Did you read all of his writings, or just the part you quoted?

Hello everyone,

I have not had time to read through all the pages, so i apologise if repetition occurs.

I do not understand why Masonary is such a taboo. I understand that there are people in this society that do not portray it for what it is, miss represent it, or act with greed, evil intent etc, so people are bound to blame masonary for this persons actions, when it's the person who should be to blame. My own thinking to this topic is masonary in principle, started out as a very posistive group, with no impure intentions, a spiritual group. There are people in all walks of life that are going to exploit what they know, or conspire, but we shouldnt discriminate an entire group for these actions. Im not a freemason, but i know a limited amount on it. Of course freemasons at higher levels will know oaths, rituals, perhaps secrets that lower level masons are yet to learn, and untill ready cannot be told, but we cant perceive these as conspiracy plans etc. We are all human though and its easier to point a finger at the easiest option when we do no know all the facts.

reply to post by intrepid


Ok honestly.. I don't think my response was of a good enough caliber to what you are asking and even deserve.. I will try and explain it in another angle.

Conspiracies revolve around Masonry.. not Freemasons.. but Masonry.

So one should ask "what is Masonry?" .... and if answering this, all Masonic conspiracies SHOULD go away.

Freemasonry is not a "thing" .. It is not an entity like a Corporation is an entity, or like a religious institution is an entity.

What is the boundaries and what makes up the "concept" Freemasonry?

Freemasonry is the ritual.. the literal words, the literal acting out of the rituals. Nothing more. The people .. they are the Lodge, and the Lodge coincides with Masonic teachings, but is not in and of its self Freemasonry..

Because Freemasonry is a Philosophy see.. so to say Freemasonry is a "thing" and that people "use it" for an agenda is impossible.. because it holds no physical form, and because it is not an entity to be used.. it is not a structured governing bureaucracy. Its .. an idea. And this idea holds no limitations to what someone can think of it.. everyones perception is greatly different.

So we have this idea, which is Masonry.. the ritual, is Masonry. The government of Freemasonry is not Masonry its self, but a preservation of Freemasonry.. they essentially run the system to keep it in check to preserve to the best of their ability the teachings of Masonry.. which directly to a Lodge of Freemasons is "inspections" on rituals.. which is Masonry.

If someone meets under the disguise of Freemasonry for an activity that does not relate to the initiation or usage of a degree.. they are not acting in a Masonic fashion, do not represent Masonry and are not partaking in any Masonic function.

Institutions that coincide with Masonry, such as our homes and charities are not Freemasonry.. they are the implementation by a Lodge or Lodges or Freemasons to utilize the Freemason ideas - the philosophy - and because they do, these are actions in a Masonic manor and represent Masonic teachings, and are thus Masonic.

Taking over the world, or conspiring to generate wealth do not use, pertain to or in any way have connections with the Masonic rituals, teachings, ideas, or upkeep of the Ritual in lodge.. and so they have absolutely nothing to do with Masonry.

If they are Freemasons acting like this, they act in a Personal way that is detached from Masonry.. they may be bad people, or good people with a warped sense of reality, but they represent them selves and the collective ideologies of the group.. but not Masonry.

Masonry cannot be used as a tool for anything but a Masonic function, which would be ritualistic work and teachings. Masonry cannot be used to guide people into certain ways of life that would involve crime or any other immoral action because the teachings are universal, and all lodges under the Grand Lodge must act in accordance.. any straying from this is not in accordance with Freemasonry.

If anything, you could say it may be a scapegoat, but nothing more.

Those who say we teach satanic teachings and brainwash people to be evil simply do not care to understand "what freemasonry is" .. which is sad.

But I hope this helps you understand what I mean.

And as I said, this is only one opinion, some may or may not agree with everything I say, but I feel for the most part I am right.



[edit on 2/7/2008 by Rockpuck] Fixed spelling.. was not as bad as I thought..

[edit on 2/7/2008 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by intrepid
Could it not be possible that this is a "training ground" for a few that are chosen to do other things that are related to Masonry while actually not being part of the Craft?

I think that the problem is that we are assuming that there is a heirarchy based on our own perceptions of what a hierarchy is. In my opinion the term 'Higher level' does not relate to external elements but to internal elements and that much of the structure, lectures and guidance offered by Freemasonry is aimed at aiding this transistion. Becoming a Freemason does not guarentee that this lesson will be learnt though.

Obviously I'm going out on a limb here because I am not a Freemason so essentially I cannot know what Masons do and do not know, nor can I know what their objectives and aims are - but certainly what I feelModernDystopia refers to is what is being discussed to certain extent on this thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Read what Illusionsaregrander has to say it is highly insightful. Much of my confusion as to where the term "high level" mason may haveoriginated has lifted. I may be wrong of course, I so often am, but either way I think that you may find it interesting.

Originally posted by ModernDystopia


You tell this stuff to a low level Freemason, and they look at you like you have 3 heads.

That's because they know it's a fraud, and they are bumfuzzled that anyone would actually believe. The "quote" you posted was not by Albert Pike, but by an anti-Mason named Leo Taxil who falsely attributed it to Pike. This happened over a century ago, and eventually Taxil admitted the fraud, but some anti-Masons today still use it (which just shows how much they care about honest research).

reply to post by Masonic Light


My apologies I completely misconstrued ModernDystopia and did not realise the spurious nature of the source. It just goes to show how this confusion comes about. I really don't know where you get your patience from sometimes, it is a mine field. Personally I dislike both extremes, it hinders education, I've had similar experiences with holocaust denial threads - ignorance and arrogance from both sides of the fence. I don't like banging my head up against a brick wall, I have decided not the even open the threads and look now. What's the point? Life is far too short at times and some just want the attention, they can have it, just not mine.

Originally posted by intrepid
I've been thinking about this topic for a while. Is there a possibility that there can actually be an inner circle that most Masons do not know about that are working independently from Masonry, they just happen to be Masons?

YES. It IS possible.

The difference between the ATS Conspiracy Theorist and all of these Masons running around is that they desperately do not want to admit the possibility.

Is it possible to harbor a group within a group, without other members knowing?

Absolutely, 100% yes.

Should we be surprised that Masons here are vehemently opposed to even discussing the idea of such a possibility?

Absolute, 100% no. As lower level 'common' Masons they will argue endlessly that there are no secrets hidden from them etc. The obvious bias this presents to non-members is either lost to them or they imagine it doesn't exist.

Hence, this thread, and countless others.

NewWorldOver,

What you said in your post is true, I have found this, and have tried to discuss it only to have the topic pigged out by the usual suspects.
Really is a shame, as, in my opinion, this can be harmful to Masonry if not kept in check.

"Compartmentalized Secrecy?" Sure, there's the possibility. Happy now?

[edit on 2/18/08 by The Axeman]