Masonry and Compartmentalized Secrecy - Not So Easy To Dismiss

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
Nobody called you stupid. This is a strawman victimization act that I see from Masons too often. "Oh I guess we're all too stupid to see any of this." Not at all. You have plenty of reasons for not wanting to see it or even look at the possibility of it. And you stick to that mind-set in EVERY mason thread.

Fine. If you say so.

This thread is about the possibility of compartmentalized secret societies, especially those that exist within fraternal or brotherhood societies.

Yes. I can read. And yes, I think it is possible that some such societies exist. But I've done tons of research into the Masonic fraternity itself and have been an obviously active member in many of its facets and there simply is no inner circle running Masonry.

There may be an inner circle running some secret society, though.

Certainly there are corrupt Masons, as well. But they are not "running" Masonry. In fact no one is "running" Masonry as we have NO centralized government. No "Supreme" Grand Lodge (all of which has been said before and is easily verifiable).

This is a conspiracy theory forum.

I must have missed that.

Please, either open your minds,

I'll disregard that snotty remark, as my mind is quite open.

or admit that you're protecting your organization from conspiracy.

I openly admit I'm protecting my organization from conspiracy. I'm trying to anyway. Why would I want to allow conspiracy to develop in my beloved fraternity?

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
When you ask me for proof, I'm just going to point you to the top of the thread and ask you to read again. The masonry S.S. theory originates with whistle blowers

I re-read the post you indicated and did not see any mention of a whistle-blowers name or affiliation. I will ask you again to direct me to anyone that you consider a whistle-blower, and to view the evidence that they put forth.

and other conspiracy theorists..

So by being a conspiracy theorist does this automatically elevate someones assertations over a member of the Fraternity? Perhaps they have an agenda, perhaps they harbor resentment, perhaps they are delusional, perhaps they are looking to make a quick buck on the gullible and paranoid or perhaps it is all of the above. I have yet to see one conspiracy theorist provide ample evidence of any controlling faction within Masonry. If you can direct me to supporting evidence I would appreciate the help.

...asking me for evidence concerning this theory is just more mason protectionism and I won't bother with it. This thread is about the possibility of compartmentalized secret societies, especially those that exist within fraternal or brotherhood societies.

No one denied that a orginization could not have compartmentalization. I think the umbrage is taken with the insinuation that Masnory is somehow manipulated and controlled by group of persons who the rest of us 'lower-levels' are not aware of. We are not the ones infering this, you are. So if we ask you to prove the veracity of your allegations it has nothing to do with protectionism and everything to do with the presentment of facts to substantiate your outlandish assertions. Your avoidment of posting or linking them does nothing to support the remarks you have posited.

This is a conspiracy theory forum. Please, either open your minds, or admit that you're protecting your organization from conspiracy.

The majority of Masons who post here do indeed have an open mind and are willing to discuss many aspects of our Institution. To imply that we are not is very disengenious. I think we are protecting our orginization from ignorance and paranoia, not conspiracies.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver

Originally posted by spirit7
Hey LnD, do you know who Bob Kraft is? He's the owner of the New England Patriots and is seen in this photo shaking hands with his coach Bill Bellicheck. Anyway, I noticed how his thumb is bent, does that look like a possible masonic handshake to you? Not a bait, just curious. Thanks man.

sportsillustrated.cnn.com...

Asking a mason about things like secret handshakes is like asking an indian to do a warcry for you. They're not going to take you seriously, instead, more likely to use the theory of secret handshakes as ammo against 'crazy conspiracy theorists'. This concerns all aspects of the masonry conspiracy - easily turned back on the entire theory to make it seem implausible or silly.

Huh? What Mason ever said we do not have 'secret' handshakes? If they are available on the internet or in literature who would deny their existence? What will will not do is openly confirm them with you as this violates our oath or obligation. Your generalization is a very poor one at best.

[edit on 30-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
That's just the thing, you aren't responsible for the defense of a secret society.

But you see, that's just the thing, this isn't a secret society. And it is hilarious that you think people should not defend themselves against rabid attacks by people - who, again - admit they have no evidence to substantiate their claims.

I will make to you the same challenge I make to other people like you: tell me one characteristic about yourself. Your religion, your ethnicity, your political party, etc. I will then start a thread claiming that all people with that characteristic are part of a NWO cabal to rule the world and to do so they rape children. If you respond, I will tell you that you don't really know whats going on within your own group. If you were subject to your own logic and reasoning, your tone would change quickly.

You are yet again declaring things possibilities without evidence, or reason, to substantiate your claims. You act surprised that when you accuse 6 million people of doing something that they reply to tell you that your wrong. If no one replied to ludicrous threads like this, you would then proceed to tell us that because we don't reply, it MUST be true. No matter how we respond or what we do, you will continue to proclaim such inane theories.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
When you ask me for proof, I'm just going to point you to the top of the thread and ask you to read again.

Oh my goodness. Can this get anymore nutty? All you are doing is committing one impossibly huge begging the question fallacy. This is quite possibly the most logically invalid mason conspiracy thread I have ever read, and you have lots of good competition. The precepts of this thread just do not - in any way what so ever - constitute a valid conclusion.

I love this whole "its a conspiracy forum, so we should be able to post whatever we want without anyone calling us out on our gaping holes of logic and reason." People like you are why conspiracy theory is synonymous with "crazy people" for most of the population. Just because this is a conspiracy forum does not mean you can get away with literally making stuff up and throwing out theories that have ZERO basis in evidence. My favorite part is when people don't believe in your crazy theories - WHICH YOU ADMIT HAVE NO LOGIC OR REASON, that you call them close minded. If close minded means requiring some semblance of logic or reason to support a theory, I'll gladly take the label. Of course the reality is that YOU are the classical definition of close minded.

The irony does not fail me.

I stopped trying to fight the ignorance. Those who fear me because of an irrational fear of what they do not understand give me power over them in some respect...and they disenfranchise themselves from reality and reason in the process.

More power for me and less for my enemies ? Why fight it

reply to post by NewWorldOver


It seems like you are trying to single out freemasons, more than other organizations. My point was that this same exact thing happens everywhere, from your local PTA, to the county fair judges table for biggest pig, to your local freemason lodge, to your local bank.

I agree many freemasons seem to act as if freemasonry is the one organization above all that is free from corruption, however I think it's more of a naive, aw-shucks, we're not too bad thing, more than trying to cover up some secret.

Just like if you asked your parents if they think the church they go to is evil, they will say no, although they probably realize someone, somewhere in the congregation probably has his/her hands dirty. Why the need to put a spotlight on freemasonry? There are so many scandals going on elsewhere with larger implications. This is not the age of enlightenment anymore.

Originally posted by Appak
Certainly there are corrupt Masons, as well. But they are not "running" Masonry. In fact no one is "running" Masonry as we have NO centralized government. No "Supreme" Grand Lodge (all of which has been said before and is easily verifiable).

very accurate. I also find it ironic that non-masons claim to know more, because they aren't blinded by the light of freemasonry

As for nobody "running" freemasonry, I can't really accept that either. I know there aren't any links or anything, but there must be some type of consortium of all the grand lodges to communicate on a level field. I would call such a collection of individuals the ones "running" it, albeit in an administrative sense, or more than that.

Interesting discussions - Just wondering if anyone is familiar with the term P2? I heard about it on a television documentary about Free Masonary - I think it might have been the History Channel. Anyway, a group of Italian Masons perhaps 20 years ago (not sure about the date) formed a group called P2 and became involved in various scams and crimes (possibly murder) and ultimately went to jail. It seems they wanted control over the main financial institutions in Italy. Do you think this could happen here in the U.S.? Just wondering -

reply to post by scientist


No one governs Masonry.

The Grand Lodge ensures all lodges under it are in line with ritual work so as 500 sects of Masonry do not stem out simply because every one and their mother wants to change a little here and a little there of the ritual.

All laws within the State are decided by OFFICERS OF THE LODGE .. At the communication it is a "yay" or "nay" vote.

When it is a close vote anyone from the assembly being an officer can challenge the findings and demand an official tallied vote.

All members of the Grand Lodge are elected at the Communication .. if the people don't like the man next in line they can pick someone else.

Essentially..... the "power" structure is VERY loose, and all major decisions effecting you as an individual will most likely come from your own lodge, not the entire State. Of course, the Grand Lodge can take away your charter if you break the rules, but how else could we ensure all lodges run according to the elected standards?

But no, there is no supreme head honcho running the show that we all bow down to as he single handedly makes every decision for us lowly Masons.

And not all Masters at the Grand Lodge level are 33rds, I would hazard a guess most are not.

Originally posted by scientist
As for nobody "running" freemasonry, I can't really accept that either. I know there aren't any links or anything, but there must be some type of consortium of all the grand lodges to communicate on a level field. I would call such a collection of individuals the ones "running" it, albeit in an administrative sense, or more than that.

There is of course the Conference of Grand Masters in North America (COGMINA)

www.cgmna.org...

But their primary purpose is to discuss matters relating to Freemasonry in general and their specific Grand Lodges. Each State (or Province) Grand Lodge is autonomous and each Grand Master serves for only one year. No one in the COGMINA is "above" anyone else, so that "level field" you mention is just that.

Certainly they assist each other in solving problems different Grand Lodges may be experiencing, discuss membership issues, etc. but it would be something more than a stretch to say they were "running" Freemasonry.

That being said, I guess technically (in the U.S.) since the Grand Master is the most authoritative member of each Grand Lodge there are 51 men who "run" Freemasonry at any given time, as there are 51 Grand Lodges (one in each state and one in the District of Columbia) and consequently there are 51 Grand Masters at any one time.

Still, there is no "central authority" over all of Freemasonry.

reply to post by bonijean

Interesting discussions - Just wondering if anyone is familiar with the term P2? I heard about it on a television documentary about Free Masonary

An irregular lodge that highjacked the name of Masonry, and formed its self into an elite mens club for the rich and powerful. If you know anything of Italian politics this is not something new, it just happened to involve Masonry.

They did not want to control anything in the name of Masonry, however as private dealings and shady business they did work to advance the entire group financially.

The important thing to remember is the Lodge Propaganda 2 was expelled by the Grand Lodge and made irregular, at a later date they re-applied to be reinstated and where put on a probationary leave, however never fully recognized.

Good, then I won't be concerned about the fact that our federal government has a financial database called P2.

reply to post by bonijean


You shouldn't be concerned in any case, even if P2 was regular. The government has many databases, and if you look hard enough, you are bound to find conspiracies. Its especially easy to do with letters and numbers. I can take any series of letters or numbers, multiply/divide/subtract from it using "conspiracy numbers" like 9, 7, 11, 13 or any other number that I can link to any event, and turn it into anything.

[edit on 30-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by scientist

 

No one governs Masonry.

The Grand Lodge ensures all lodges under it are in line with ritual work so as 500 sects of Masonry do not stem out simply because every one and their mother wants to change a little here and a little there of the ritual.

no, there is no supreme head honcho running the show that we all bow down to as he single handedly makes every decision for us lowly Masons.

well of course no one person could be running everything, but even you state the grand lodge "ensures" everyone is in line. I believe this is now a game of semantics, between ensuring something is kept in line, and governing something, no matter how loose it is, or how large the governing party is.

reply to post by scientist


Usually its an old man with a clipboard who gives a speech and watches one of the rituals.

*shivers* They are watching! Everywhere! I don't know how to better explain it honestly. It is what it is, and it certainly is not a governing conspiracy?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
*shivers* They are watching! Everywhere!

I don't know how to better explain it honestly.

is that because the words are failing you, or because you simply don't know?

Or am I being dense?

reply to post by scientist


I would say perhaps a loss for words.

Perhaps it would be easier if you explained exactly what you "think" the governing system in Masonry is like. Having witnessed the Grand Lodge and having been in inspections, I honestly cannot see it any other way then what it is.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by scientist

 

I would say perhaps a loss for words.

Perhaps it would be easier if you explained exactly what you "think" the governing system in Masonry is like.

well, I guess that makes two of us then. I already explained my views in complete detail, at the very beginning of this thread. Any society or structure whatsoever, uses something to govern to maintain "structural integrity."

To say that it's impossible or doesn't exist, seems to be naive or misdirecting, however I'm, not claiming I have any groundbreaking information that will convince anyone of anything. Just pointing out an inherent quirk that humans have when forming together. Same exact reason communism only works in theory and not practice, and why utopian societies are for novels and fantasies.

Originally posted by spirit7
Ah, I knew that you were leading to somewhere with this. Fair enough. When Christians are told to worship a supreme being without the mention of Jesus Christ, I have a problem with that. My religous debate with "the craft" is valid. The conspiracy here being lucifer behind the scenes of freemasonry.

First of all, not every Mason is a Christian (though the vast majority are)... for example, I am Jewish and a Mason. I'm quite glad that I don't have to worship Jesus in the lodge, or I couldn't be a member, since praying to a man is considered heretical in my religion.

Secondly, the lodge is not a church, though it does require a belief in God, and encourages members to be active in the church of their choice. How can you have a "religious debate" about something that is not only not a religion, but encourages people to be more involved with their religion?

The whole point of Masonry is that people can set aside their religious and socio-economic differences and work together for self improvement and the good of the community. Why do you think thats a bad thing?

Personally, I would not be surprized by anything a person might have to say about Free Masonary (good or bad) because it all boils down to a lesson in understanding human nature and the need to belong to something (good or bad). This thread has proved to me that once a person really feels passionate about his/her affiliation to a group such as this nothing short of an "Act of God" (or perhaps not even that) would convince him/her otherwise. Hopefully those of us who have questioned the integrity and moral standard of this organization will ultimately be satisfied that our fears were unfounded because if not we are all in for a wild ride.