Depleted uranium--covert genocide

If DU isn't harmful, then why is the U.S. gov keeping statistics and saying that 58,000 have been affected by DU?

From the Canadian National Newspaper:

www.agoracosmopolitan.com...

"U.S. investigative researchers have discovered an official U.S. Department of Veteran Affairs official, but not well publicized count, of 73,846 U.S. soldiers who have perished as an apparent result of Depleted Uranium based bio-chemical warfare exposure. This exceeds an estimate of 58,000 U.S. soldiers who had been killed in relation to the Vietnam War.

Well over 200,000 American soldiers could be killed by 2010, as a result of the after effects of exposure to U.S. dirty bombs.

Over One million U.S. soldiers have apparently been disabled from Depleted Uranium based biochemical exposure. Over one million Iraqis have also been documented to have been killed."

Why is no one talking about this?

In ammunition, Depleted Uranium makes up the armor piercing portion of the projectile. If any radiation remains inside this "plug" of DU , then it isn't depleted uranium at all. It is partially depleted uranium and the DU was not made properly. Since the U.S. Government generally makes all it's own ammunition, then it is obviously their fault that the ammunition was not properly made. If any contractors worked with the government to make this ammunition that is harmful then, obviously, they are responsible as well. To what extent who knows. The government isn't exactly honest about these things..

Gulf War syndrome also comes to mind.

-ChriS

reply to post by BlasteR


BlasteR, thanks for that info, that clears up alot for me. Know I know why some people say DU is harmless. It depends on how it's made.

Here's more from the article, regarding Gulf War Syndrome, which was caused by DU:

"The U.S. Iraq Nuclear Holocaust by mass, represents between fourteen and twenty eight thousand Hiroshima’s from a uranium poisoning perspective. In Hiroshima 70 thousand died from the blast and 70 thousand died from uranium poisoning."

"The nuclear waste the U.S. has exploded into the Middle East will continue killing for billions of years and could wipe out a third of life on earth.

Winds can and will blow the uranium dust from the U.S. weapons around the world. Gulf War Veterans and civilians who have ingested the uranium will continue to die off from uranium poisoning over a number of decades."

I find it interesting that people still think DU is dangerous. I believe it is somewhat akin to the radon scam that was going around about 20 years or so ago. I know in the Northeast US they were selling "radon detectors" all over the place. That, as it happens, is bunk. There is actually an inverse relationship between radon levels and rates of cancer, not because radon is so wonderful, but because areas in the US with low radon levels tend to have more people who smoke and are much more densely populated, i.e., they have more pollution. Incidentally, DU is pyrophoric, when it contacts other metals it tends to burst into flames, similar to magnesium, that is why the Navy stopped using DU projectiles in the CIWS, they had concerns about fires aboard the ships. If you managed to injest DU dust from fired munitions, you would probably need to be in a tank or structure that was fired upon and the likelyhood of a human surviving that event and being within range to inhale dust is pretty low. Your getting more rads typing about the dangers of DU then you would from being around it.

Also, I was at the Nevada Test Site about ten years ago, no cancer yet. Kids are all normal also. If NTS was intended to depopulate the U.S., why is it in the middle of nowhere? NTS is a huge facility, large than Rhode Island (that isn't saying much, I know), where, as far as I know, has only done underground testing since around 1960. It is currently a DOE facility, as the US Air Force handed it over to them several years ago. Now, prior to 1960 a lot of above ground testing was done, and, while I don't believe our government is necessarily very honest, a lot of what happened in this instance was ignorance. I believe in 1954 an Army company was marched through one of the ground zero sites shortly after a weapon was detonated and with several years all of those men did die of cancer. However, don't forget, Marie Curie died of breast cancer, but she used to carry radon around in her pocket. Very little was understood about the long term effects of radiation until the 1960's.
As a side note, as far as I know all testing was ended at NTS in the mid 1970's.

reply to post by forestlady


I just noticed that someone asked why is the U.S. government keeping statics on how many people are exposed to DU? As if the fact the government keeping statics on the military means whatever they are keeping statics on is harmful. I spent a number of years in the Marine Corps and I can assure you, as I am sure any other military or former military on this site can attest to, the U.S. military keeps statics on everything. From race to gas mask size to number of ice cream socials attended, at times it is often bizarre the amount of information that is collected. Just because the DoD is keeping statics on it, that doesn't mean anything. I can't tell you how many surveys, rosters and other assorted means of information gathering I participated in during my time in the Corps. As for the 1,000,000 servicemen have been killed or debillitated figure, I wish I could think of something more eloquent. I am sure that a newspaper from another country that is rapidly turning socialist might have their heart in the right place, but give me a break.

Service Six


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attack the post, not the poster.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by Crakeur]

Originally posted by servicesix
I find it interesting that people still think DU is dangerous. I believe it is somewhat akin to the radon scam that was going around about 20 years or so ago. I know in the Northeast US they were selling "radon detectors" all over the place. That, as it happens, is bunk. There is actually an inverse relationship between radon levels and rates of cancer, not because radon is so wonderful, but because areas in the US with low radon levels tend to have more people who smoke and are much more densely populated, i.e., they have more pollution. Incidentally, DU is pyrophoric, when it contacts other metals it tends to burst into flames, similar to magnesium, that is why the Navy stopped using DU projectiles in the CIWS, they had concerns about fires aboard the ships. If you managed to injest DU dust from fired munitions, you would probably need to be in a tank or structure that was fired upon and the likelyhood of a human surviving that event and being within range to inhale dust is pretty low. Your getting more rads typing about the dangers of DU then you would from being around it.

Also, I was at the Nevada Test Site about ten years ago, no cancer yet. Kids are all normal also. If NTS was intended to depopulate the U.S., why is it in the middle of nowhere? NTS is a huge facility, large than Rhode Island (that isn't saying much, I know), where, as far as I know, has only done underground testing since around 1960. It is currently a DOE facility, as the US Air Force handed it over to them several years ago. Now, prior to 1960 a lot of above ground testing was done, and, while I don't believe our government is necessarily very honest, a lot of what happened in this instance was ignorance. I believe in 1954 an Army company was marched through one of the ground zero sites shortly after a weapon was detonated and with several years all of those men did die of cancer. However, don't forget, Marie Curie died of breast cancer, but she used to carry radon around in her pocket. Very little was understood about the long term effects of radiation until the 1960's.
As a side note, as far as I know all testing was ended at NTS in the mid 1970's.

I think that people have really been only talking about the environmental and health implications becuase of the media focusing on the 30mm rounds the A-10 fires from the Gau-8 gatling gun after a british soldier was killed by friendly fire and 3 were injured shortly after the second Iraq war began in 2003. The news stories don't all have it right either. The A-10, in combat, fires a load of ammunition commonly referred to as "combat-mix" which alternates between HEI (high explosive incendiary) and API (armor piercing incendiary).. Being an ex-ammo troop myself and working with 30mm rounds this is nothing new to me. The API rounds each have an armor piercing "plug", if you will, that is semi-conically shaped at the top that is housed inside the projectile. Here are some helpful links..

Information on the Gau-8 gatling gun
www.fas.org...

from the same link...

The gun fires a mix of both high explosive incendiary (HEI) and armored piercing incendiary (API) ammunition. The PGU-13/B HEI High Explosive Incendiary round employs a standard M505 fuze and explosive mixture with a body of naturally fragmenting material that is effective against lighter vehicle and material targets. The PGU-14/B API Armor Piercing Incendiary round has a lightweight body which contains a sub-calibre high density penetrator of Depleted Uranium (DU). In addition to its penetrating capability DU is a natural pyrophoric material which enhances the incendiary effects. The PGU-15/B TP Target Practice projectile simulates the exterior ballistics and provides a ballistic match to the HEI round and is used for pilot training.

The link goes on to explain depleted uranium itself..

Depleted uranium results from the enriching of natural uranium for use in nuclear reactors. Natural uranium is a slightly radioactive metal that is present in most rocks and soils as well as in many rivers and sea water. Natural uranium consists primarily of a mixture of two isotopes (forms) of uranium, Uranium-235 (U235) and Uranium-238 (U238), in the proportion of about 0.7 and 99.3 percent, respectively. Nuclear reactors require U235 to produce energy, therefore, the natural uranium has to be enriched to obtain the isotope U235 by removing a large part of the U238. Uranium-238 becomes DU, which is 0.7 times as radioactive as natural uranium. . Since DU has a half-life of 4.5 billion years, there is very little decay of those DU materials. When manufactured as 30mm rounds, each DU projectile contains approximately 4,650 grains [0.66 pounds (lbs)] of extruded DU, alloyed with 0.75 weight percent titanium. The projectile is encased in a 0.8 mm-thick aluminum shell as the final DU round.

I think people are mis-interpreting the round itself. The round is completely safe to handle and can be inspected by hand if needed as I stated before. The health problems occur when the DU tip either:

a) becomes jammed within the Gau-8, which can inadvertantly expose loaders (load toads in ammo troop babble) to slight amounts of airborne DU in cases where the DU has become exposed and damaged itself. After working in ammo for 6 years, I know that the Gau-8 jams ALOT. Also, sometimes the load crews upload or download the ammo too fast and if the gun has a defect the rounds can be damaged (usually in a sequence like 5 good one bad). I've seen cases where the load crew got so impatient HEI rounds got jammed and about 5-10 were completely ripped in half while another 50-100 rnds were completely mutilated.

b) the gun is fired in combat, can then make airborne some of the DU which could then, potentially, be inhaled afterwards. I'm not sure if the DU is always destroyed on impact or only if it comes in contact with a hard surface. The point is that in cases that it creates an airborne form of the DU, it is a health risk and can be inhaled.

I do think people are demonizing the military in a way because they can. The thing I take issue with is the military probably knew the risks a long time ago but decided to use DU because the armor piercing benefits outweighed the risk.

-ChriS

[edit on 26-3-2008 by BlasteR]

What a lot of folks here are ignoring with regards to DU(or weapons in general), is that any weapon will be hazardous to somebody. When one weighs the costs vs. the benefits(i.e. quickly neutralizing one's enemy, mitigating prolonged fighting which could result in higher collateral damages) and keeping your own troops safe by giving them a very effective means of destroying their foes, it just makes sense to use the best tool for the job. All weapons have some risk, but you have to weigh the effects of quickly winning an engagement vs. having a drawn out conflict, when deciding when and where to use them.

Originally posted by servicesix
As for the 1,000,000 servicemen have been killed or debillitated figure, I wish I could think of something more eloquent. I am sure that a newspaper from another country that is rapidly turning socialist might have their heart in the right place, but give me a break.

Service Six
Mod Note: General ATS Discussion Etiquette – Please Review This Link.
attack the post, not the poster.
[edit on 27-3-2008 by Crakeur]

Hi Service Six: Calling people stupid is against the T&C's. I was the one who posted the info and it wasn't me who said the 1 million figure. It was the report, which was quoting a GOVERNMENT report. I am not stupid and I don't appreciate you calling anyone stupid.

Dr Helen Caldicott, who is no lightweight, is founder and president of the Nuclear Policy Research Institute. I would imagine she would know what she's talking about if she's researching nuclear policy. Here is a list of just SOME of her honorary degrees:

Selected List
Doctor of Humane Letters, Emmanuel College, Boston, 1980
Doctor of Humane Letters, Salem State College, Massachusetts, 1980
Doctor of Science, Williams College, 1980
Doctor of Letters, Westfield State College, 1981
Doctor of Humane Letters, Columbia College, Chicago, 1982
Doctor of Humane Letters, University of Massachusetts, 1983
Doctor of Laws, University of Notre Dame, 1983
Doctor of Humane Letters, Medical College of Pennsylvania, 1983
Doctor of Humane Letters, State University of New York at Binghamton, 1984
Doctor of Humane Letters, Antioch University, 1984
Doctor of Humane Letters, Russell Sage College, Troy, N.Y., 1986
Doctor of Laws, Northeastern University Law School, 1986
Doctor of Medicine, University of Linkoping, Linkoping, Sweden, 1986
Doctor of Science, Rutgers University, 1990
Doctor of Laws, Smith College, 1990
Doctor of Laws, University of Guelph, 1991
Doctor of Humane Letters, Marywood College, Scranton, Pennsylvania, 1993
Doctor of Education, University of Newcastle, Australia, 2000
Doctor of Humane Letters, University of Victoria, Vancouver, 2000

This is what she has to say about DU, from an interview with Ms. Caldicott:

www.heyokamagazine.com...

Helen Caldicott: Uranium actually clings to the DNA; chemically combines with DNA so much so that in medicine, in histology, in pathology, we use uranYl ions (which are uranium ions) to increase the stainings in our preparations BECAUSE URANIUM chemically combines with DNA. Obviously because of this mechanism, uranium damages DNA. URANIUM IS ALSO a heavy metal AND like all heavy metals it IS EXCRETED THROUGH THE KIDNEY WHERE IT CAN CAUSE ACUTE NEPHRITIS AND ALSO KIDNEY CANCER YEARS LATER BECAUSE IT IS radioactive. So, from three perspectives - it can damage DNA, causing mutations and cancer, IT CAN DAMAGE KIDNEY FUNCTION and IT CAN CAUSE congenital anomalies BECAUSE IT IS EXCRETED IN THE SEMEN AS WELL AS IN THE URINE.

John LeKay: So, that would be passed on to generations of people?

Helen Caldicott: If the DNA is damaged in the eggs or the sperm - those congenital or genetic abnormalities could or would be passed on to future generations.

John LeKay: So, that would be passed on to generations of people?

Helen Caldicott: If the DNA is damaged in the eggs or the sperm - those congenital or genetic abnormalities could or would be passed on to future generations.

John LeKay: So what it's really doing is DAMAGING the gene pool of these people?

Helen Caldicott: Exactly. If you want to read more about this - read my book "Nuclear Madness, What You Can Do" (you can get it from Amazon) and then you will understand lay terminology and how these things can damage the DNA; how they ca n cause cancer and the like.

John LeKay: Is there a difference between depleted uranium and NATURAL uranium in terms of it's toxicity?

Helen Caldicott: Depleted is uranium. Depleted uranium IS just named depleted because when you dig uranium up from the ground there are basically two isotopes. They are both radioactive; one is uranium 235, which is used to power nuclear power plants and to make nuclear bombs, and the stuff that is left after you remove the uranium 235 is uranium 238 and it's called depleted only because it's depleted of uranium 235.

The main reason DU is still used is because

1- It is nearly 70 percent more dense than lead
2- DU is a metal which has pyrophoric properties (this enhances the incendiary effect of the ammo and the overall result)

So far pretty much nothing compares as a penetrator. The problem is that the military really hasn't done much research into coming up with an alternative that is non-radioactive (as silly as that sounds) yet still has the desired properties for this application.

This is from wikipedia on the health risks:

DU is considered both a toxic and radioactive hazard that requires long term storage as low level nuclear waste. DU is relatively expensive to store but relatively inexpensive to produce or obtain. Generally the only real costs are those associated with conversion of uranium hexafluoride (UF6) to metal. DU is 67 percent denser than lead, only slightly less than tungsten and gold, and just 16 percent less dense than osmium or iridium, the densest naturally occurring substances known. However, the material is prone to corrosion and small particles are pyrophoric.[17] Its use in ammunition is controversial because of its release into the environment.[38][39][40][41][42][43] Besides its residual radioactivity, U-238 is a heavy metal whose compounds are known from laboratory studies to be toxic to mammals in high exposures.

The problem is that the actual overall effects on health have not been widely studied or otherwise considered by military leaders and politicians to the point where an alternative is at least somewhere on the horizon. The government would really rather give veterans their disability and never hear about it again.

I've heard people say that DU is responsible for the gulf war syndrome. That's really a theory IMO. We were all also given anthrax injections that were not tested for long term use before the military was giving them out to all the soldiers. Gulf war syndrome could have been caused by any of these factors. We just don't know.

The only time DU is extremely harmful to human health is when it is turned into small particles and/or gas and is inhaled or otherwise is introduced to the human body. Internally, the effects would obviously become amplified because it is radioactive. But this is also an interesting bit:

Some states and the International Coalition to Ban Uranium Weapons, a coalition of more than 90 non-governmental organizations, have asked for a ban on the production and military use of depleted uranium weapons.[30] The European Parliament has repeatedly passed resolutions requesting an immediate moratorium on the further use of depleted uranium ammunition,[31][32] but France and Britain – the only EU states that are also permanent members of the United Nations Security Council – have consistently rejected calls for a ban,[33] maintaining that its use continues to be legal, and that the health risks are entirely unsubstantiated.[34]

again.. Only because long term studies have never been conducted. You can go both ways all day. The truth is that little to no action has been taken by our side to at least consider looking for an alternative to DU.

From wikipedia again..

The external radiation dose from DU is about 60 percent of that from the same mass of natural uranium

Although this really isn't where the primary health concerns are (externally), it goes to show that this stuff is radioactive. If inhaled in a particle/mist form , again, you are talking about potential long term health problems. If someone sais otherwise, I'd like them to inhale it and prove it. DU is usually safe, but so is walking in a dark alley. That doesn't mean that it won't harm veterans..

-ChriS

reply to post by servicesix

I believe it is somewhat akin to the radon scam that was going around about 20 years or so ago. I know in the Northeast US they were selling "radon detectors" all over the place. That, as it happens, is bunk.

What???? You cannot EVEN sell your home in most states that have a radon problem, if the level is above 4.

I guess because YOU say it's bunk, we should ignore the EPA and the Surgeon General.


www.epa.gov...

Radon: The Health Hazard with a Simple Solution
Radon is a cancer-causing natural radioactive gas that you can’t see, smell or taste. Its presence in your home can pose a danger to your family's health. Radon is the leading cause of lung cancer among non-smokers. Radon is the second leading cause of lung cancer in America and claims about 20,000 lives annually.

* Read the EPA Press Release
* Learn how you can protect your family

Heed The Surgeon General's Warning: Test Your Home

EPA has released a Public Service media campaign for radon. The campaign features the U.S. Surgeon General's warning that radon causes lung cancer and that you should test your home. These TV, radio and print PSA materials are available in English and Spanish.

* Read more about the radon public service media campaigns

Exposure to Radon Causes Lung Cancer In Non-smokers and Smokers Alike

Lung cancer kills thousands of Americans every year. The untimely deaths of Peter Jennings and Dana Reeve have raised public awareness about lung cancer, especially among people who have never smoked. Smoking, radon, and secondhand smoke are the leading causes of lung cancer. Although lung cancer can be treated, the survival rate is one of the lowest for those with cancer. From the time of diagnosis, between 11 and 15 percent of those afflicted will live beyond five years, depending upon demographic factors. In many cases lung cancer can be prevented; this is especially true for radon.

Please guys, let's stop all this crap about Radon - Okay?

This thread was started by Dolphin23 who stated that the US Government and its Agencies were systematically depopulating the USA by means of nuclear weapons testing [in general] and by using DU ammunition [in particular].

Now, somewhere along the lines, people started banging the eco drum because of the use of DU ammunition in Afghanistan and Iraq.

What the has that got to do with the systematic downsizing of the American population by nuclear testing in the desert state of Nevada or wherever, and/or the testing of DU ammuinition?

Dolphin23 has had ample opportunities to refute my response to him [or her] and has failled to do so.

He or she so very obviously knows very little about the subject [as do many of the other posters] that he or she cannot and will not put up any TANGIBLE PROOF.

Banging on about some Eco Agency or W.H.O/UN [whatever] report does little to endorse Dolphin's views - especially when one of those agency reports is submitted by STUDENTS who simply do not have the knowledge, experience or expertise in the field of weaponry, let alone nuclear weaponry.

[edit on 2-4-2008 by fritz]

After reading the whole thread and readin fritz repeaedly focus the point on what the OP actually said and everyone repeatedly try and find some fault in the concept of DU. Fine. It's bad. If you read the links and follow the sources you'll see that DU affects the human JUST LIKE uranium which is pure.
fine.
BUT
What is the topic?

COVERT GENOCIDE.

posting whilst drunk is never a good idea.


[edit on 2-4-2008 by Thurisaz]

Originally posted by Thurisaz relax c'mon it just a littel bit of urnanium and it is good for us...eben genocide is good for os cos it ikeeps the pop'n down

we neeed depsots to balnce out the normal peple.

I suppose that Mr Robert Mugabe is your idea of a fine and upstanding leader. If you like a little bit of genocide, perhaps you should live in Zimbabwe!

In ammunition, Depleted Uranium makes up the armor piercing portion of the projectile. If any radiation remains inside this "plug" of DU , then it isn't depleted uranium at all. It is partially depleted uranium and the DU was not made properly. Since the U.S. Government generally makes all it's own ammunition, then it is obviously their fault that the ammunition was not properly made. If any contractors worked with the government to make this ammunition that is harmful then, obviously, they are responsible as well. To what extent who knows. The government isn't exactly honest about these things..

Gulf War syndrome also comes to mind.

--REVISION-- Just making a note that the actual DU is radioactive and is treated as low level nuclear waste. Just because of how the DU is made makes it radioactive. What I was really trying to say is that externally it is extremely safe and non-hazardous. If the rounds are unsafe/radioactive to even touch by hand, at that point the rounds are defective because the DU wasn't properly processed/manufactured. But the "plug"/penetrator itself is actually radioactive contrary to my previous statement.. sry.

-ChriS

[edit on 2-4-2008 by BlasteR]

Originally posted by Bspiracy
After reading the whole thread and readin fritz repeaedly focus the point on what the OP actually said and everyone repeatedly try and find some fault in the concept of DU. Fine. It's bad. If you read the links and follow the sources you'll see that DU affects the human JUST LIKE uranium which is pure.
fine.
BUT
What is the topic?

COVERT GENOCIDE.

When did Germany join the Security Council?

I thought it was US, Russia, China, France, England.

I know not very relevant, but just a minor correction if applicable, maybe I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression those were the permanent members.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
When did Germany join the Security Council?

I thought it was US, Russia, China, France, England.

I know not very relevant, but just a minor correction if applicable, maybe I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression those were the permanent members.

Shattered OUT...

France and Britian sry. It was included in the wikipedia text I gave in one of my posts where it talks about moratoriums and the EU (under depleted uranium).

-ChriS

This may help if you want to know more about D.U. and it's affects as considered a part of Gulf War Syndrome.
CONSPIRACY TEST - GULF WAR ILLNESS

I watched it when it first came on TV ( thank goodness for DVR and the ability to choose to watch info when you want ) and after all the hype and discussion over this issue, I was intent on knowing what they had to say.
The video tests 5 people who were in the gulf war and are exhibiting symptoms.
One man was has been trying to pin D.U. on the Gulf War and the weapons and has gone through the typical " I was working on it, got close and the mil shut me down and kicked me out"

I had low hopes in this when i started watching but after seeing a lot of supposed facts and seeing the results of some FIRST EVER tests, I was surprised a bit more than I thought I would be. From what i understand, the only real thing that can destroy genetic markers or scramble them is a certain exposure to radiation.. This is where the tests are surprising.

Still not genocide though
If you are interested and want solid ground to debate on, the above link will help.

b

reply to post by Bspiracy[/url]

I don't believe it does contribute to GWS. I and many other CBRN instructors firmly believe that GWS is a direct result of untested 3rd generation Nerve Agent Pre-Treatment Sets [NAPS]and 1st generation Biological Agent Pre-Treatment Sets [BAPS] troops were required to start taking when 'in theatre' near their Line of Departure [LOD] coming up to the start of the ground war.

It is a well known fact that the Iraqi artillery ammunition berms were alleged to hold a mixture of HE, Smoke and Chemical munitions stored on bays mounted vertically irrespective of ammunition type. [For example, the top round could be HE, the one below Chemical and the one below that Smoke]

The then Iraqi senior Intelligence Officer went on TV to say that during counter battery fire in GW1, that chemical munitions had been fired
'accidentally', in the heat of the moment, and senior Iraqi officers had 'taken the appropriate action' against those concerned. [Draw your own conclusions] This was in an interview filmed by British ITV Channel 4 some years after GW1.

It is equally well known that the Scud missile fired at Dahran, 120kms south west of King Kahlid City, contained 'Sarin' - a highly toxic Nerve Agent. The King's Royal Hussars who were deployed there, had placed NAIADs and CAMs all round their Regimental and Squadron perimeters.

When the Scud detonated, within a few seconds ALL the NAIADS 'alarmed' whilst the CAMs showed 4 or more bars. Suspecting the NAIAD and CAMs were acting up, NBC Reporting Cell staff conducted another test with hand held RVD devices.

The RVD is a Residual Vapour Detector and whilst it cannot readily identify a 'specific' blister agents, it can and does detect both 'G' and 'V' type Nerve Agents - which is in fact what they showed.

So, as I said from the top, I and many CBRN instructors like me are of the opinion that Gulf War Syndrome [GWS] is so similar to the long term effects of Sarin or other Nerve Agents and, when you couple that to the NAPS and BAPS, it should have been obvious to those chemists at Porton Down and the CDC in Atlanta who looked in to this GWS.

I would like top point you in the direction of a book called 'A higher Form of Killing' co-written by Jeremy Paxman where, in the very first chapter, we see symptoms very similar to GWS.

Other good books on the subject are the 2 books by Edward M. Spiers -
'Chemical Warfare' and its follow up puplication 'Chemical Weaponry - A Continuing Challenge'.

I highly reccommend them to those of you who want the real explanations about GWS.