"Eating Beef More Destructive to Environment than Driving a Car"

reply to post by Shar_Chi

So because I eat meat I am insane? Seriously I think you need to get a clue. It is so funny how angry and defensive people get about their causes. Foolish in my opinion.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


There's a difference between natural migrations and mass concentrations. Comparing the beef industry to herds of naturally migrating animals is comparing apples and oranges. We've had this discussion when I first joined and I'll gladly make the rounds with you again if you'd like to.

Remove Animal Protein from the worlds diet and there is not enough arable land to produce enough food to feed the world. This huge State I live in has almost no arable land just like much of the rest of the world has no arable land. The America's in general are blessed in that respect. So, who do we let starve to death to get rid of the Animal Protein? There is more to this equation than people want to admit. If we were to immediately comply with the wishes of the Vegan/PETA Crowd huge numbers of people would starve.

Originally posted by sputniksteve
So because I eat meat I am insane? Seriously I think you need to get a clue. It is so funny how angry and defensive people get about their causes. Foolish in my opinion.

So have you got something useful to add to the discussion or just wanted to provoke some response from me? I think I know who needs a clue.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft


2. Before the cattle were in the American west, farting up the scenery, there were . . . millions of Buffalo, of the same genus as domestic cattle, but much larger. Bison also have larger diets, and thus more output. So, weren't the Buffalo putting out methane BEFORE evil whites killed them off to introduce domesticated cattle? There are fewer cattle now than there were buffalo before 1500, so why is methane a MODERN problem???

.

"Because the great herds were nearly gone before any organized attempts were made to survey populations, we may never know just how many buffalo once roamed North America, although estimates range from 30 to 75 million. "The moving multitude...darkened the whole plains," wrote Lewis and Clark, who encountered a herd at South Dakota's White River in 1806."

link

USDA Cattle Calculator ~ #head

So essentially your point about buffalo #'s is wrong. The above information does not even begin to speak about how industrial cattle waste is dealt with. the methane i do believe is produced not only fro farts but from the decomposition of the poo. i will add another link in a bit detailing how that is dealt with and is another part of the problem.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
reply to post by kozmo

 

And yeah... I am holier than thou. It's important you never forget it.

Should speak for itself. I'll have no further comment on that statement.

Congrats on your organic farming! If more people would do that this world would begin to reap the environmental, economic and health benefits. That's why we've done it and it helps to teach your children how to become self-sufficient. So Kudos to you!

Now, why shouldn't I be able to compare meat to soy??? All of the vegans I know drink soy milk, eat tofu etc... They claim it as their method of getting their proper protein and iron intake. I'm sorry if you disagree but I believe it to be a very valid comparison.

Beyond that you have completely failed to grasp my point... it is NOT what you choose to eat or omit from your diet but HOW YOU PROCURE that which you decide to eat. Vegans typically want to make the argument a matter of dietery choice then follow that argument up with a series of non-sequiturs, straw men, red herring and often, ad hominems. To me that smacks of force feeding a religion down someone's throat. I don't give a crud WHAT you decide to eat or not eat - the only thing I car about is making ENVIRONMENTAL choices with the foods that you do choose to eat.

Personally I feel that meat is a necessary part of a healthy diet. For every stat you show me that says it isn't, I can provide one that says that it is. So let's not go down that road because I could care less what you or your vegan buddies believe about my meat eating habits and am not interested in the propaganda - as I am sure you are not interested in mine.

So, let us then stick to the thrust of the argument - regardless of what you eat, you should be making choices with the least environmental impact possible. Example: Don't buy lettuce at the grocery store that was shipped from Ecuador when you can grow your own. The same can be said of tomoatos and countless other fruits and vegetables. If your CHOOSE to eat meat then deal with a local butcher who procures his meat from a local ranch; preferably an organic one if possible. Those are the CHOICES that I have made, my family has made and the creed we live by.

reply to post by Shar_Chi


Quoting a UN Study and just making it up as you go along are the same thing. In my opinion.



Next time you see a mirror, look at your teeth. You have the teeth of an Omnivore and that is one reason we as a Species have been so successful. You are also an Animal that has just as much right to survive as any other animal. If we are more adaptive its because we evolved this way through natural selection. Our impact on this Planet is minuscule compared to that of the Natural Forces around us. One volcanic eruption does more to the climate than mankind has in its entire existence. Once emotion enters into a subject truth is out the window. Both side are lying and exaggerating and spinning like crazy people. Both sides need to come back down to Earth and start talking facts.

oh man...how this topic becomes so heated so fast... you think we were talking 911!!

so, I'll weigh in...

i've seen one arguement bantered around here in defence of meat eating.. the timeless "we've been doing it since the beginning"... well folks, humans have been raping, pillaging and buggering small children forever too... does that make it right?

Whenever i hear people defending their right to eat meat, i can't help but wonder what else or who else they oppress in their lives... akin to slavery, the meat industry is nothing but pure evil for selfish gain... if any of you truely believe an animal's life and quality of life is worth so much less than the sensation of a piece of flesh in your mouth... well i hope no one captures your pet, cages and force feeds it finally leading it to slaughter with all of its "mates" only to wind up on some selfish human's plate...

frankly, it's no wonder the world is such a disgusting place... if we can justify that kind of industry, we could justify genocide... oh wait a minute...


btw... i've been veg for over 20 years

Originally posted by never_tell


frankly, it's no wonder the world is such a disgusting place... if we can justify that kind of industry, we could justify genocide... oh wait a minute...


btw... i've been veg for over 20 years

No really, a vegan!?!? Say it ain't so... Your red herrings and non-sequiturs would have never given you away fro a vegan in a million years!

I like meat! I eat meat! I will continue to eat meat and feed it to my family! They enjoy eating meat! Meat is good!

We are animals; more specifically we are mammals. Most mammals are omnivorous; WE are OMNIVOROUS. How one's diet and one's anti-social deviance can be compared is completely beyond me yet somehow eating meat is akin to buggerring children???

This is the world we live in. This is how we have evolved as a species. Man will continue to eat meat. Pat yourself on the back for choosing not to eat meat but don't you dare shove your warped ideals down my throat!

If you could come down off of your high horse just long enough to employ some logic you MIGHT be able to see that there are environmentally responsible ways to enjoy eating meat as a healthy part of your diet. You choose not to eat it - fine! Where you really piss me off is with the ad hominems and your continued desire to force such a choice on me.

Got news for ya - those of us who do not live is such a shallow pond are capable of understanding that eating meat is hardly the cause of this planet's woes! Go figure...

reply to post by kozmo

I like meat! I eat meat! I will continue to eat meat and feed it to my family! They enjoy eating meat! Meat is good!

don't you mean " i am selfish. i enjoy being selfish. I will continue to be selfish and so will my family. they enjoy being selfish. being selfish is good"...

despite the origins of this thread, i'm not suggesting that it's the environment that's at harm... perhaps if you read between the lines and didn't force me to be even more combative, you'd see i'm suggesting it's a question of morality...

and if you'd like to place me on a high horse, go ahead... at least i'll be able to see the big picture from up here

[edit on 19-12-2007 by never_tell]

reply to post by kozmo


you make an excellent point man. regardless of where we stand on the issue of meat, the ends remain the same. it is about doing things in a way that does not cause harm.

attacking someone for taking a different stance on the issue does nothing to solve the problem. you have every right to eat meat, Never-Tell can feel free to not eat meat. as long as we are willing to have a dialog on the HOWs rather than the WHYs we can all work together to make it all right.

just my $0.02


edit: to add Never-Tell's name


[edit on 19-12-2007 by Animal]

reply to post by never_tell


Wow! So now eating and nourishing one's family is "Selfish" Oh, to the gallows with me

Perhaps you should've written, "Ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem. I lack any semblance of logic, sense or a cogent argument ergo I shall continue with Ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem."

Thank you so very little for your substantive... whatever you want to call it.

reply to post by Animal

it is about doing things in a way that does nto cause harm.

lol... and how do you suppose that meat gets to become stuck in your colon? molded from small bits of plastercine by tiny elves in a gumdrop forest?

oh man... i can see i'm not going to make any friends with this thread...lol

reply to post by Animal


Thank you Animal! I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Some vegans want to make this a moral issue... Um, okay, whatever... It isn't. To attempt to make it one is the most disingenuous argument to ever be presented on these forums.

reply to post by kozmo

So now eating and nourishing one's family is "Selfish"

well eating your family would just be more carnivourous activity... and nourishing them, well i suggest you do some research as to the countless ailments dervived form a meat and steroid diet... but once again, you've brought this down to a "me me me" argument... i think my point has been lost on you my friend...

next...

[edit on 19-12-2007 by never_tell]

Originally posted by never_tell
reply to post by Animal

 

it is about doing things in a way that does nto cause harm.

lol... and how do you suppose that meat gets to become stuck in your colon? molded from small bits of plastercine by tiny elves in a gumdrop forest?

oh man... i can see i'm not going to make any friends with this thread...lol

don't sweat it Never-Tell, I know where you are coming from, and I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

When I talk about harm I a talking about the environment (keeping with the theme of the OP). While I agree that the consumption of meat and other animal products undeniably harms the body, people will continue, likely forever, to consume animal products. Regardless of how righteous your personal habits are, you cannot force them on another FREE human being.

The point I really wanted to make was it is important to respect on another first and foremost. Without mutual respect we can improve nothing, divided we are conquered.

We simply have to look past all the WHYs and focus on the HOWs (sorry to repeat that but I liked it )

So regardless, thanks for posting, your view point is as valad as any others and like every other it contributes to the collective 'mind'.

reply to post by kozmo

So, let us then stick to the thrust of the argument - regardless of what you eat, you should be making choices with the least environmental impact possible.

Something we both agree on. Omnivore, vegetarian, vegan, as long as we all would have this same reasoning behind our meals, we'd all be in a better place. Any diet can be detrimental to our environment, it's up to us to create the change we're so avidly fighting for.

Originally posted by kozmo
Now, why shouldn't I be able to compare meat to soy???

IIRC you were comparing cows milk to soy milk... milk aint meat. But go on and compare it any way you like. It still doesn't stack up environmentally, and I still dont see any evidence from you to the contrary whereas there is the OP Report, a UN report, and a Wiki here for you to peruse.

Originally posted by kozmo
So, let us then stick to the thrust of the argument - regardless of what you eat, you should be making choices with the least environmental impact possible...

Well you keep talking about red herrings, and you are presenting a red herring right there, as the OP is regarding how a meat diet stacks up environmentally to a Vego diet. Justify it any way that makes you comfortable, but meat fails compared to vego diet on an environmental basis, and as I said in my very original post, that is really beyond debate.

Originally posted by kozmo
the only thing I car(e) about is making ENVIRONMENTAL choices with the foods that you do choose to eat.

To humour your diversion, if you ARE gonna eat meat, then you are absolutely right, get it from organic local sources. I would add in a humble request, that you source it from places which reduce the cruelty and suffering of the being as much as humanly possible, before you reduce it to flesh on your plate.

I suggest you reread the topic of the thread, the original posts, and see how you've derailed it to support your own guilt complex.

As for you Blaine, what facts do you care to discuss? Super Volcanoes? I agree - when they go off, its nasty. But you're a little OT? One day the Sun will eat the Earth, etc.

Humans are omnivores? We already covered that. Maybe you are, or maybe you are a chest thumpin' carnivore, but I AM NOT AN OMNIVORE. Humans have a choice of all 3, pure and simple. Stop arguing otherwise, you're wasting time you could be covering more relevant issues.

Any other facts?

What is so difficult for you guys that you cant just put your hand up and agree, its better for the environment not to eat meat? That is what this thread is about, and the claim I am supporting. The rest of your arguments are, what was it? Red herrings, non-sequiturs, ad hominems, disingenuous... take your pick.

Originally posted by never_tell
reply to post by kozmo

 

i suggest you do some research as to the countless ailments dervived form a meat and steroid diet... but once again, you've brought this down to a "me me me" argument... i think my point has been lost on you my friend...

next...

[edit on 19-12-2007 by never_tell]

I suggest you read my previous posts - I eat organically raised, free range beef. Amamzingly enough I have not suffered from any such "Countless ailments". In fact, I have one of the strongest constitutions that I know of.

And yes, this is a "Me, me, me" argument as I, NOT YOU, get to choose what I eat just as I do NOT choose your diet for you. Damn!!! Vegans are worse than the Jehovah's Witnesses.

reply to post by Animal

While I agree that the consumption of meat and other animal products undeniably harms the body, people will continue, likely forever, to consume animal products. Regardless of how righteous your personal habits are, you cannot force them on another FREE human being

not only harms the body, but the soul as well.... and though you suggest we can't force our personal habits on another FREE human being, "we" continue to feel it's alright to force them on the rest of the animal kingdom... not right, imo

and don't get me wrong.. i drive a car occassionally helping to destroy the environment and i use toxic chemicals to clean or paint...

BTW i do appreciate your attempt to defuse the bomb!