Dealing with 9/11 Madness (argumentum ad hominem veritas)

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Hey, if there is anything like a Holocaust here in the US, and millions of people are murdered, and I sit idly by without so much as saying a word,

Then call me stupid. It would be the least you could do. Call me despicable, borderline accomplice in mass murder. Try me as a traitor. And I will deserve it fully.

There is no excuse.

reply to post by bsbray11

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

 

Hey, if there is anything like a Holocaust here in the US, and millions of people are murdered, and I sit idly by without so much as saying a word,

Then call me stupid. It would be the least you could do. Call me despicable, borderline accomplice in mass murder. Try me as a traitor. And I will deserve it fully.

There is no excuse.

There are many reasons why people are fooled, whether we're talking about the Nazi empire or more recent ones. Ironically, villifying them only makes them reject alternative views more. Think of a computer program that is faulty; does it truly deserve being called "stupid"? Seriously, the problem is just that it has some faulty lines of code, which, given the chance, a good programmer could fix. I contend that humans can program each other to some extent, although there is ofcourse a great deal of self programming as well. However, one should always consider that even self programming is based upon past learnings.

Finally, the carrot is generally a much better persuader than the stick.

reply to post by scott3x


It comes down to personal responsibility.

You say there are many reasons the Germans were fooled. Yes, you can look at it that way, to try to take blame away from them, to say, hey, it was nobody's fault, really.

There is really only one reason they were fooled: The powers that were in that country fooled them. Intentionally.

There is an old virtue in this country called "vigilance." What can you tell me about vigilance, scott?

reply to post by bsbray11

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by scott3x

 

It comes down to personal responsibility.

You say there are many reasons the Germans were fooled. Yes, you can look at it that way, to try to take blame away from them, to say, hey, it was nobody's fault, really.

There is really only one reason they were fooled: The powers that were in that country fooled them. Intentionally.

There is an old virtue in this country called "vigilance." What can you tell me about vigilance, scott?

Practice it, if you can. I'm not saying that the germans didn't have faults. Who doesn't? I'm only saying that they don't deserve to be called "stupid" for being fooled. Did they have more faults then other countries? Perhaps. But then, they'd suffered a crippling defeat during World War I and were forced to pay crippling reparation costs to boot; this was apparently not repeated after World War II, although I personally really wouldn't have wanted to live in East Germany (I recently saw "The lives of others", good movie on that).

Anyway, all I'm saying is that if we could just try to be more understanding of why we others don't see things our way, I think there'd be a lot less hurtful posts here.

Reply to post by bsbray11

You are soo cute try to deflect. But you didn't answer the question. I know you feel justified in doing so. The funny thing is so do they. So again, how is not hypocritical to do what you hate others doing?


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by scott3x
Practice it, if you can. I'm not saying that the germans didn't have faults. Who doesn't? I'm only saying that they don't deserve to be called "stupid" for being fooled.

Dude, why don't you just go ahead and cry about it, seriously? Do you realize how off the scale is here, letting millions of people die, versus calling someone stupid? I'm done with this conversation, really. When you live a little longer, and get to see more people suffering, and get a better feel for what it's like to physically suffer, then you will understand what I am saying.

The Germans were STUPID for allowing the Holocaust to happen. Careless, unsympathetic, apathetic, ignorant, and yes, stupid. I want to see you cry about me saying that. I really would like to see it, when we are talking about the Holocaust, among other things. Never in my life have I seen anyone try so hard to defend the Germans for what they did and allowed to happen.


reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Sure, it's hypocritical. Pot, kettle. You are much more sarcastic and vitriolic than I am, even if you fail to see it yourself, I assure you. It doesn't really even bother me to call people stupid. If it hurts your feelings, then you're a baby. That's about all I can tell you. Political correctness is for nerds, too.

reply to post by bsbray11

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by scott3x
Practice it, if you can. I'm not saying that the germans didn't have faults. Who doesn't? I'm only saying that they don't deserve to be called "stupid" for being fooled.

Dude, why don't you just go ahead and cry about it, seriously? Do you realize how off the scale is here, letting millions of people die, versus calling someone stupid?

I think your mistake is in this idea that every german was responsible for letting millions die. Things don't work that way in the real world. Furthermore, how many germans knew that the jews were being killed? How many americans truly understand that invading Afghanistan and Iraq wasn't to "liberate" those countries, or to catch Bin Laden? How many Germans knew that the Reichstag fire was an inside job?

Originally posted by bsbray11
I'm done with this conversation, really. When you live a little longer, and get to see more people suffering, and get a better feel for what it's like to physically suffer, then you will understand what I am saying.

I think I have a fairly good grasp on suffering. I don't see why we have to compound it by making even more suffer with insults.

Originally posted by bsbray11
The Germans were STUPID for allowing the Holocaust to happen. Careless, unsympathetic, apathetic, ignorant, and yes, stupid. I want to see you cry about me saying that. I really would like to see it, when we are talking about the Holocaust, among other things. Never in my life have I seen anyone try so hard to defend the Germans for what they did and allowed to happen.

Perhaps I should simply tell you my prime philosophy: I believe that everyone tries to maximize happiness and to minimize pain. How we go about these things reflects our education, and tends to give us "good", "bad" or "mediochre" labels.

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

 

Sure, it's hypocritical. Pot, kettle. You are much more sarcastic and vitriolic than I am, even if you fail to see it yourself, I assure you. It doesn't really even bother me to call people stupid. If it hurts your feelings, then you're a baby. That's about all I can tell you. Political correctness is for nerds, too.

I'm not always politically correct, but I don't see how insulting others helps anything.

Originally posted by scott3x
I think your mistake is in this idea that every german was responsible for letting millions die. Things don't work that way in the real world.

Not when you don't take personal responsibility, you're right.

All you are telling me, is that you don't feel socially responsible for what your leaders do. Did you know one of our generals actually made German civilians dig out the concentration camps, just to force them to see the horrors they had allowed in their own country? What do you think that general would say to you right now, after having been through that war, and witnessing what he did?

Furthermore, how many germans knew that the jews were being killed? How many americans truly understand that invading Afghanistan and Iraq wasn't to "liberate" those countries, or to catch Bin Laden? How many Germans knew that the Reichstag fire was an inside job?

"Not enough" is the answer to each one of those questions. Unless you WANT things like the Holocaust to happen again, for the exact same reasons. If you took more personal responsibility, you would see to it that you would be using this same energy you are using to defend the Germans right now, in spreading awareness and being vigilant about our own country's actions now.

I think I have a fairly good grasp on suffering. I don't see why we have to compound it by making even more suffer with insults.

I have NEVER suffered from anyone calling me a name on an internet forum. If you think that is suffering, you are a baby. Yes, that's what I said. I'm still waiting for you to start crying.

Perhaps I should simply tell you my prime philosophy: I believe that everyone tries to maximize happiness and to minimize pain.

That's fine. Then let's try to minimize mass murders by being vigilant, aware, and focusing our energies on preventing those sorts of things in our own country. Rather than trying to kiss German ass after what they did.

I'm not always politically correct, but I don't see how insulting others helps anything.

And I don't see how it hurts anything, unless you are really that sensitive. Seriously?

reply to post by bsbray11

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by scott3x
I think your mistake is in this idea that every german was responsible for letting millions die. Things don't work that way in the real world.

Not when you don't take personal responsibility, you're right.

You honestly think that every german was responsible for letting millions die?

Originally posted by bsbray11
All you are telling me, is that you don't feel socially responsible for what your leaders do.

No I'm not.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Did you know one of our generals actually made German civilians dig out the concentration camps, just to force them to see the horrors they had allowed in their own country? What do you think that general would say to you right now, after having been through that war, and witnessing what he did?

I don't know. I just know that being harsh with others generally tends to make things worse, not better.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Furthermore, how many germans knew that the jews were being killed? How many americans truly understand that invading Afghanistan and Iraq wasn't to "liberate" those countries, or to catch Bin Laden? How many Germans knew that the Reichstag fire was an inside job?

"Not enough" is the answer to each one of those questions.

Not enough for a better world, sure. But in this world, it was "as good as it gets", at the time.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Unless you WANT things like the Holocaust to happen again, for the exact same reasons. If you took more personal responsibility, you would see to it that you would be using this same energy you are using to defend the Germans right now, in spreading awareness and being vigilant about our own country's actions now.

Why do you think I'm here? The question is, how to spread awareness of inside jobs? By trying to beat the truth into skeptics and disbelievers? Or by trying to understand why it is that they disagree?

Originally posted by bsbray11

I think I have a fairly good grasp on suffering. I don't see why we have to compound it by making even more suffer with insults.

I have NEVER suffered from anyone calling me a name on an internet forum. If you think that is suffering, you are a baby. Yes, that's what I said. I'm still waiting for you to start crying.

Hopefully one day you'll realize that this type of dialogue doesn't help anyone.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Perhaps I should simply tell you my prime philosophy: I believe that everyone tries to maximize happiness and to minimize pain.

That's fine. Then let's try to minimize mass murders by being vigilant, aware, and focusing our energies on preventing those sorts of things in our own country. Rather than trying to kiss German ass after what they did.

Not insulting the Germans is not the same thing as what you describe.

Originally posted by bsbray11

I'm not always politically correct, but I don't see how insulting others helps anything.

And I don't see how it hurts anything, unless you are really that sensitive. Seriously?

bsbray, you were the one protesting the term "twoofer". Just treat others the way you would like to be treated.

Originally posted by scott3x
You honestly think that every german was responsible for letting millions die?

Yes, dude. Yes. If you don't have the guts to take responsibility, nobody else is going to. That's the whole freaking problem. Do you think what the Germans did was RIGHT? To sit around and do nothing? To be apathetic, to succumb to manipulation? Because seriously, if that is what you believe, and if everyone believed that, the Holocaust would just happen over and over and over and over and over again. You realize that, right? That you would not EVER freaking learn: social responsibility. Speak out. Be vigilant. Be aggressive. If you are going to consider yourself a "citizen" of a country, a democratic country, that elects its leaders to represent you, and THAT is how they represent you, then what is that? Do you consider yourself a member of society or don't you?

I don't understand what drives you to justify what Germany did so badly. Is it because you realize the same thing is happening here now and you don't want to feel as though you can do anything about it? Or are you a Nazi sympathizer?

Originally posted by bsbray11
All you are telling me, is that you don't feel socially responsible for what your leaders do.

No I'm not.

So then you DO feel socially responsible for what your leaders do?

Which is it?

Originally posted by bsbray11
Did you know one of our generals actually made German civilians dig out the concentration camps, just to force them to see the horrors they had allowed in their own country? What do you think that general would say to you right now, after having been through that war, and witnessing what he did?

I don't know. I just know that being harsh with others generally tends to make things worse, not better.

Sticks and stones, man.

Not enough for a better world, sure. But in this world, it was "as good as it gets", at the time.

And the fact that you are totally accepting of what the German people did is the whole problem. You are perfectly okay with accepting their stupidity. I set a higher standard for myself and others in this society: don't freaking have a Holocaust. Do you feel like you should have to debate that with me?

Originally posted by bsbray11
Unless you WANT things like the Holocaust to happen again, for the exact same reasons. If you took more personal responsibility, you would see to it that you would be using this same energy you are using to defend the Germans right now, in spreading awareness and being vigilant about our own country's actions now.

Why do you think I'm here?

Well, right now, you are trying to defend the German people for what they did.

The question is, how to spread awareness of inside jobs? By trying to beat the truth into skeptics and disbelievers? Or by trying to understand why it is that they disagree?

I've already asked several times why you feel it necessary to defend the Germans who allowed the Holocaust, of all people. I have yet to understand why you are doing it. I can't even fathom it.

bsbray, you were the one protesting the term "twoofer". Just treat others the way you would like to be treated.

I am just being strategic. Disallowing words like "twoofer" from the 9/11 forums, and being stricter with ad hom in general, would be wonderful. However, it's not forthcoming and I can't do anything about that. But it is pure strategy, to stay on topics, to not divert to personal attacks. I am not actually offended by anyone using such words.

Reply to post by bsbray11

I avoid this name calling redundant BS if at all possible. And yes unfortunately I can be dragged into it. It IS a failing of mine and I can admit that. I have NEVER attempted to claim perfection and nor will I. But you on the other hand reach for that first weapon first. Then seek to justify it with justificational deflective rhetoric when called on it rather like you are doing now. I'm worse? Hardly. The only reason you say that is because it is aimed at you. I can get along with and respect those who hold opposing viewpoints so long as they can give me the same.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


argumentum ad hominem veritas

It is a logical fallacy. It is not a moral or ethical broach. It is saying that your argument is false if your argument is a derision of the human on the other end of the debate. Watcher (I'm picking on you) may very well be a jerk (he's not) but it doesn't render his argument useless. Calling him a "jerk" does not negate his argument.

Now, if this is all about name-calling... we're all grownups and we have a choice whether or not to be offended. I'm sure the mods can't stop all of the ad hominem attacks, so we need to learn not to be offended.

DL Hughley said in a stand up routine: Call me anything you won't, but know I'm probably not going to answer to it"

I was told on another thread that I was worse than a rapist. That was particularly harsh, but...so? I'm not worse than a rapist. I know this.

Maybe we could all learn to be nicer and learn to be less thin-skinned.

reply to post by A Fortiori

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by SkepticOverlord

 

argumentum ad hominem veritas

It is a logical fallacy. It is not a moral or ethical broach. It is saying that your argument is false if your argument is a derision of the human on the other end of the debate. Watcher (I'm picking on you) may very well be a jerk (he's not) but it doesn't render his argument useless. Calling him a "jerk" does not negate his argument.

Well said. And even if one's opponents' argument is mistaken, that's no reason to insult them. If anything, one should feel compassion, just as one should feel compassion for someone who's going the wrong way on a one way street (admittedly it's hard to do when you're the one who's about to get hit because of it :-p). I once drove a motorcycle down on a bit of a one way street stretch; I didn't even realize I was going the wrong way until a cop pulled me over after I'd already gotten off of it already. I paid a... well, alright I bribed him (it was Mexico, it's more common down there :-p), but the point is these things can happen and being harsh on the one that's wrong isn't the solution.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
Now, if this is all about name-calling... we're all grownups and we have a choice whether or not to be offended. I'm sure the mods can't stop all of the ad hominem attacks, so we need to learn not to be offended.

I agree in part. I haven't made a single complaint to the moderation or flagged a single post as of yet. This doesn't mean that I haven't been attacked, but there are -levels- of attacks and it hasn't yet passed the threshold wherein I feel I've got to call for moderation. By the same token, however, I was somewhat upset when most of the responses to my detractors was deleted in a thread I'd created solely for the purpose of responding to people who feel that caricatiruzing their opponents is the solution.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
DL Hughley said in a stand up routine: Call me anything you want, but know I'm probably not going to answer to it"

In extreme cases, I will indeed just ignore people. But as a general rule, I prefer responding.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
I was told on another thread that I was worse than a rapist. That was particularly harsh, but...so? I'm not worse than a rapist. I know this.

8-/. While I understand what you mean, I definitely wouldn't be pleased with someone saying that to me. Incidentally, maybe you could PM me with where that happened, I think it may be time that I expand myself a bit beyond this 9/11 forum ;-).

Originally posted by A Fortiori
Maybe we could all learn to be nicer and learn to be less thin-skinned.

I agree with the nicer part; as to the less thin-skinned, perhaps not run to the moderators so much, but if someone says something that hurts, I generally want to make it clear and that there are consequences for such actions (the cold shoulder generally).

reply to post by bsbray11

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by scott3x
You honestly think that every german was responsible for letting millions die?

Yes, dude. Yes.

I certainly don't.

Originally posted by bsbray11
If you don't have the guts to take responsibility, nobody else is going to.

Taking responsibility for things that one only played a bit part in isn't being fair to oneself. One should only take responsibility as far as one's responsibility goes.

Originally posted by bsbray11
That's the whole freaking problem. Do you think what the Germans did was RIGHT? To sit around and do nothing? To be apathetic, to succumb to manipulation?

Did they though? Do nothing that is? Are you even aware that there were crackdowns on dissidents in Germany? Do you understand -why- the Reichstag fire was so useful for Hitler's Nazis? I suppose people could argue that americans have "done nothing" as Afghanistan and Iraq were illegally invaded, but I don't think that'd be fair either.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Because seriously, if that is what you believe, and if everyone believed that, the Holocaust would just happen over and over and over and over and over again. You realize that, right? That you would not EVER freaking learn: social responsibility. Speak out. Be vigilant. Be aggressive.

Aggression I frequently equate with hatred and even violence, whether it be physical or not.

I'm sorry, but that aggressive bit just got me thinking of something a little bit funny ;-)...

Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you.

-Yoda speaks

Originally posted by bsbray11
If you are going to consider yourself a "citizen" of a country, a democratic country, that elects its leaders to represent you, and THAT is how they represent you, then what is that? Do you consider yourself a member of society or don't you?

I don't understand what drives you to justify what Germany did so badly.

Justify what Germany did? No, I'm not doing that. I'm simply asking you to try to understand the causes behind what happened, so that you can have compassion for them as well as those that some of them caused suffering to.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Is it because you realize the same thing is happening here now and you don't want to feel as though you can do anything about it?

I think I am doing something about it.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Or are you a Nazi sympathizer?

Please.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by scott3x

Originally posted by bsbray11
All you are telling me, is that you don't feel socially responsible for what your leaders do.

No I'm not.

So then you DO feel socially responsible for what your leaders do?

Which is it?

I think it would be best to say that I feel fairly responsible for what -I- do. I try to elect the leaders that best reflect what I hold to be true.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by scott3x
I just know that being harsh with others generally tends to make things worse, not better.

Sticks and stones, man.

Names do hurt sometimes.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by scott3x
Not enough for a better world, sure. But in this world, it was "as good as it gets", at the time.

And the fact that you are totally accepting of what the German people did is the whole problem.

I don't believe so. I think that accepting the world as well as ourselves would solve a lot of things. I truly wish I could do both better than I do. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to make it better, only that we don't focus on berating others as well as ourselves for our failings, instead simply focusing on improving both. I think there were some very good lines in the movie Zeitgeist. Quoting from the transcript:

Now, in our culture we've been trained for individual differences to stand out. So, you look at each person and immediately it is brighter, dumber, older, younger, richer, poorer... and we make all these dimensional distinctions, we put them in categories and treat them that way. And we get so that we only see others as separate from ourselves in the ways in which they're separate. And one of the dramatic characteristics of experience is being with another person and suddenly seeing the ways in which they're like you, and not different from you, and experiencing the fact that that which is essence in you, which is essence in me, is one; the understanding there is no other. It is all one.

[edit on 5-10-2009 by scott3x]

reply to post by bsbray11

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by scott3x

Originally posted by bsbray11
Unless you WANT things like the Holocaust to happen again, for the exact same reasons. If you took more personal responsibility, you would see to it that you would be using this same energy you are using to defend the Germans right now, in spreading awareness and being vigilant about our own country's actions now.

Why do you think I'm here?

Well, right now, you are trying to defend the German people for what they did.

I'm trying to show you that people can be fooled and yet not deserve to be called "stupid". As an example that hits closer to home, there are many intelligent people who still believe the official story regarding 9/11.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by scott3x
bsbray, you were the one protesting the term "twoofer". Just treat others the way you would like to be treated.

I am just being strategic. Disallowing words like "twoofer" from the 9/11 forums, and being stricter with ad hom in general, would be wonderful. However, it's not forthcoming and I can't do anything about that. But it is pure strategy, to stay on topics, to not divert to personal attacks. I am not actually offended by anyone using such words.

I am. But I'd rather be called a "twoofer" than stupid. Ideally I could be called neither ofcourse :-p. I find it immensely ironic that I've been attacked more by those who believe that 9/11 was an inside job than those who lean more towards the official story, but considering that we're in a forum called "above top secret", in a sub section dealing specifically with 9/11 conspiracies, I think it's understandable :-p. In other forums, I've been attacked much more by the other side.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Reply to post by bsbray11

 

I avoid this name calling redundant BS if at all possible. And yes unfortunately I can be dragged into it. It IS a failing of mine and I can admit that. I have NEVER attempted to claim perfection and nor will I. But you on the other hand reach for that first weapon first. Then seek to justify it with justificational deflective rhetoric when called on it rather like you are doing now. I'm worse? Hardly. The only reason you say that is because it is aimed at you. I can get along with and respect those who hold opposing viewpoints so long as they can give me the same.

I first found Watcher in the Shadows at a time when I was being attacked left and right in this forum by those on the "truther" side of the equation. I couldn't agree with Watcher in the Shadows more- I respect those who respect me, regardless of what beliefs they hold regarding 9/11, and I will hold those who disrespect me to account, again regardless of what they believe regarding 9/11.

what happened to the gold that was stored in the basement of the World Trade Center?

reply to post by Duke02

Originally posted by Duke02
what happened to the gold that was stored in the basement of the World Trade Center?

Not sure, but I don't think this is the thread to talk about it. Threads on the subject have been made here though. You may want to review what one or more of them say at the following link...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Looked around for a thread to discuss what I see as unwarranted assumptions on other members that can lead to ad hominem attacks (that someone is a liar, for instance), I decided that this might be the best thread for it. So, here goes...

reply to post by Lillydale

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by scott3x
I see you're referring to my post #2250. I still maintain that I have never seen him -trying- to be deceptive. I think he simply assumes and/or misinterprets various things. Seeing him get things wrong on a rather frequent basis can certainly be frustrating to those responding to him, but I maintain it's one thing to simply make mistakes, another entirely to be trying to deceive.

Still? Are you his mom? Get over MM. He is trying to be deceptive on purpose but I only think that because I can read him doing it. You call it whatever you like.

I'm only talking about him because you and others have assumed he is trying to deceive. I have asked you and others to provide evidence that this is the case; to date, I have seen none.

Originally posted by Lillydale
When I have to remind someone 4 different times that they are putting words in my mouth after others have had to do the same thing, you kind of lost all your chances to NOT make any mistakes.

Some people are more tolerant than others on such things.

Originally posted by Lillydale
You cannot deny he has gotten it wrong over and over again what he claims people have said. I call it deceptive, you call it a mistake. How about if you want to keep talking about him, you start a thread about it because I am not discussing another member and what you think of their mistakes any more.

I tried that approach in the past; the thread was deleted. So I'll try appending it to this moderator created thread which I think deals with issues of this nature, and see if that works.

Originally posted by Lillydale
You had to correct him more than me. If you are cool with that kind of sloppiness, then go for it.

I'm tolerant of it. People are imperfect creatures, and this doesn't apply solely to OS supporters.

Originally posted by Lillydale
I just fail to see how you can want to read anything anyone says when you have to correct them after EACH POST.

Most of the time, OS supporters and truthers disagree with each other, in many posts. Clearly, it could be argued that each side is trying to "correct" the other on a host of points. Whether their corrections are accurate or not is something that forum goers must decide. One thing's for sure though; I have dealt with OS supporters who are far less civil then Michael. And at the very least, he's researched enough concerning 9/11 to know that the 9/11 Commission Report leaves out certain information concerning Pakistan and Saudi Arabia complicity in the attacks; with more time, he may perhaps see how the U.S. organizations such as the CIA had close ties to these countries leading up to 9/11 and the implications of this.

reply to post by scott3x


You have a little crush on me don't you? I am not sure what else you expect me to say on the subject.