Life begins at Conception

"And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

39And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

40And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

45And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour."

www.biblegateway.com...

Jesus took human form and while just a few days in the womb, John the babtist yet unborn leaped in his mothers womb.

Those who believe in Christ can not allow abortion to exist. Abortion is murder of the innocent. Any "Christian" who supports abortion is lost.


[edit on 12/10/0707 by astmonster]

Such a touchy subject you post on.

I am not in possession of any great knowledge that lets me know if life begins at conception or not. However, my opinion is it does not. The heart of a fetus begins beating with it's own blood at Day 22. To me, that signifies life at that moment.

Personally, I could never have an abortion. I have children, one of which is from a rape, and I could not bring myself to end that pregnancy. BUT.... I am a supporter of every woman's right to make the choice.

No one has the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body. And trying to use the bible, a book written by man for man and full of fallacies and loopholes, to support the agenda to take away women's rights is foolish.

Blindly following the words of any book is both ignorant and foolish in my opinion, especially when it concerns something like this.

VV

And this fits in the religious conspiracies due to what exactly?
Seems like a BTS Theological discussion.

But I will argue your point further...dont stop there.
Life is the egg...life is the sperm.

Remember in the Bible the dude who got reprimanded for 'releasing his seed'.
Kind of ironic when you realize only one 'seed' is going to make it anyway.

On a surface level, the argument would seem rather clear...but nothing is really on the surface level now is it?

You say anyone who supports abortion is lost...you might as well say every soldier who spills blood is lost also. - in Genesis after the flood, its says that a man who spill blood, his too will be spilt. - there were no exceptions. (and the proof is in the pudding. You notice wars dont end by themselves, or rather that the killing doesnt end the war...unless you count the fact that people killing each other off will eventually end - everything.)

See things are wrapped up within each other...that is ideas, concepts...you cant just pick and choose a dogma (you can, but it will be just that...dogma) and expect it to pan out. Life is a bit more complex.

After all the classical christian has to grow up sometime, if they want to bare fruit.

Peace

dAlen

As a child who was adopted I am utterly opposed to abortion. I have heard all the arguments like rape, or young mothers and simply do not understand the need to murder an as yet unborn child. Would you abort a healthy baby in the third trimester? Of course not, that would be murder. What about a child that was not fully developed but could survive if placed in an incubator? Where do you draw the line to show at what point it is acceptable to kill off the growth? As far as I am concerned you can not.

Victims of rape or young mothers should give their children up for adoption to the thousands of couples who cannot conceive or cannot have children due to other reasons. There is never any acceptable time that you can kill off the life growing inside you. The only reason that I am in this world now is because my biological mother decided against abortion and put me up for adoption. I see the whole abortion issue as a failing of society where young mothers do not feel like they have an option to actually have the child and therefore must get an abortion.

As you can see, at no point do I consider any outdated biblical literature or religious teachings in my argument. I simply think that there is too much left to chance on when a baby can be aborted and many more reasons to have the child and put it up for adoption for example.

That is your opinion though.

Who are you to say a woman should have to carry a child from rape? Not all women are strong enough emotionally and mentally to carry a child from rape.

What about incest? Or rape/incest? Do you still think it is right to force a girl to carry the child of her father/brother/uncle/cousin? Do you think a woman should sacrifice her life in the attempt to bring a baby to term? At what point do you say it is acceptable if the risks are that both the mother and baby will die? 60%? 70%? 100%? What about the women who are carrying babies that will not survive long outside the womb? Is it better for the woman to suffer the mental and emotional anguish of carrying to term and birthing only to hold a baby in her arms that is dying right in front of her eyes?

You are not God. You do not have the right to choose for every woman. You only have the right to choose for yourself.

Your rights end at the end of my nose and my rights end at the end of your nose. Meaning... you cannot enforce your choices onto me or anyone else. No one should.

VV

But does abortion have to be a right or a special medical procedure done when the birth of a baby would kill a woman for example? I am all for aborting a sickly baby whose birth could have long-lasting and potentially adverse effects for a mother.

But what if a woman is raped and has carried the child for a while and decides to have it aborted? What if the child in question could survive in an incubator? Does the mother have the right to kill the child just because she didn't want it? Does being the victim of one horrible crime give her carte blanche to commit another equally horrific crime?

I am not against the procedure of abortion. I know there are times when there is simply no other option and the medical staff should save the mother over the unborn child. I just do not believe that woman should be given the right to abort their children without any stipulations. These are things like when the cut-off point is for an abortion, under what circumstances it can be performed and other such factors.

You mention the example of rape as one where abortion laws should be applied. But what if a woman uses the same law to allow her to abort a child simply because she can't afford it? Alright so maybe it would be better not to live then to be poor and unsupported, but can we make that decision for the child? I have already mentioned that the only reason I am alive today is because someone made what I believe was the right choice and decided not to kill me. I don't feel like I can support having that experience taken away from a child that happens to be born in a less-than-optimal situation.

I think that anyone who undergoes a tramautic experience like rape would have a new understanding on the value of a human life. Surely if they have survived that horrific ordeal they can give birth? Again, I think that abortion may be medically necessary in some cases, but should never be a right for woman. There are simply too many instances for abuse. What should be given is more support for people that find themselves in situations like this so they don't feel as if their only option is to kill their child.

[edit on 10-12-2007 by Scalamander]

My issue with the 'pro-life' belief is that some adherents imagine an ideal world where every child is taken care of, and has a chance to grow in a sterile, suburban neighborhood. There are even those who insist that children can/should be given up for adoption. Yet, if there was such an abundance of families that wished to adopt, there wouldn't be so many unadopted children. From what I understand as well, growing in an orphanage isn't exactly growing up in Buckingham palace. Let's also not forget how difficult things can get for a single mother: I've known several of them personally.

Some also portray adherents of the 'pro-choice' faction as free wheeling murderers. Yet, many are unaware of those to whom an abortion-decision is a very serious event. I'm sure many are also unaware of the emotional trauma some post-abortionists experience. It isn't always as easy as 'having a baby and getting it over with;' besides the reiterated 'rape' scenario, there are less-discussed situations: for instance, aborting a child to save its mother's life.

The religious scripture quoted by the original poster predates abortion by over a thousand years. If I may be so bold, it doesn't bear any relevance towards this thread. It is an excerpt of a passage that is today quoted as proof of Mary's (and Jesus') divinity. Until there is sufficient information on our initial 9 months of development and the consequent rise of sentience, it will be foolish to pontificate on the rights of a fertilized egg.

I will also be so bold as to pose a challenge: if anyone is so outspoken about saving a child's life and preventing 'murder,' then let that person go adopt a child. If one will take responsibility for the existence of a child, I'm sure one won't mind raising that child and giving it the cushy existence it would otherwise be deprived of.

[edit on 12/10/2007 by Mr Jackdaw]

I think that anyone who undergoes a tramautic experience like rape would have a new understanding on the value of a human life. Surely if they have survived that horrific ordeal they can give birth?

You have never been raped, and I thank everything I believe in that you have never had to go through something that horrific. But let me assure you, as a victim of rape, it does not give a new understanding of the value of life. It rips away a woman's pride, self esteem. It leaves her feeling vilated, helpless and filthy. It creates questions in the mind that make her wonder if it was her fault. Did she deserve it. It makes her feel insecure and terrified of everything around her.

Now imagine feeling all of that. The fear, the loathing, the feeling of being dirty, the feeling of helplessness and powerless. The insecurity. And then find out that this act that has ripped everything you were from you has created a child. A child that you do not. You are already an emotional wreck from the trauma of rape.. and now you have this child inside of you.

Some women can find the inner strength to carry such a child to term and put it up for adoption. Some even find the inner strength to carry the child and raise it themselves. Others do not have that inner strength. Would you rather they abort the child or kill themselves (and the child) because they can not handle carrying the child to term?

I do not agree with abortion in place of birth control. Do not get me wrong. A woman who sleeps without the use of protection must accept the consequences of those actions and using abortion as a means of birth control is sick. But, for every action, there is a reaction. For women who do that, they often find themselves scarred in the reproductive organs and unable to carry another child. I do not agree with partial birth abortions. Those are outright murder since the child is partially born before the life is taken.

The simple fact is, there is no right answer to this question. There never will be. You cannot impinge on someone else's rights.

VV

reply to post by astmonster


ok, that's your completely logic-less idea that should be kept to yourself and not thrust in to a political discussion as it has no basis in anything but your antiquated religious text.

In this area everyone should mind their own moral compass. If they don't belong to your club then your rules may not apply. It's not about requiring abortions, but providing the room for those affected to make their own decisions.

Now I know I have opened the door to the "but so we should allow people to decide if it is OK to murder based on their own moral compass" question. Abortion is different since it is about where the point of life is not scientifically defined as conception. If you base it on a religious definition then you cannot apply it to people not of your faith. Example: If an atheist subscribes to the accepted medical definition then that is scope of the moral compass. If a devote Catholic uses religion that is the moral compass. One cannot shadow the other unless the science stands up to the definition.

I know those of specific faiths cannot fathom such logic, but they never could.. just ask Copernicus, Galileo, Darwin etc.


drakeman.


move along nothing to see here anymore.

I was not religious at all when I had an abortion, to keep from raising a child on welfare.
It was THE worst THING I have EVER done!
Worse than anything.
I was 3 months along.
I thought that it was a blob of pre-baby gel or something.
Let me tell you the clinics don't tell you what it looks like,
or the spiritual abyss you are headed into.
Of course I wasn't that pristine before that.
I even went to see Bad company in concert while I was pregnant and drunk.
I was even forced into a relationship with my deputy sheriff boss, while I was pregnant. Nobody knew I was pregnant. and I needed to keep working to save for the 300$ abortion. This was in 1989.

One nurse at the health department told me I needed to start doing things for my pregnancy, and I told her WHY? I'm aborting it.
Her jaw dropped......

I didn't become a christian for many years, and it was too much for me to live with.
mainly why I ended up in the psych ward for 6 months off and on.
We had a preacher come to the mental hospital, I asked him why God hated women so much....
He quit coming soon after that, and then we only had a seldom-spoken priest.

After I became a christian, I volunteered at a crisis preg
nancy center.
That's where I learned that the baby has little feet and toes at 6 weeks!
I also learned the various ways in which the babies are killed

(saline burns them alive, D and X pulls them apart alive, partial birth is worse.)
The men and boys who let their girlfriends do this are just as guilty!

Rape and incest accounts for less than 2% of ALL abortions!

Men came back from Vietnam traumatized for accidentally killing children and women are supposed to do it?
I would tell ALL women to DON"T DO IT!!!
BTW, Jesus forgave me in 1993.

Adoption is the only way to go if you feel you can't handle a rape/incest.
I heard the testimony the other day of a girl who was adopted after her mother was raped.

We can't adopt, yet, because of the criteria that you have to meet (income and some other things) yet.

Originally posted by astmonster



41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:


Jesus took human form and while just a few days in the womb, John the babtist yet unborn leaped in his mothers womb.

These two statements seem to have nothing to do with an egg being fertilized in fact it presumes that the "babes" are already existing and they "leap" into the womb. As if the life exists seperate from the fetus.

Ok I'm bold and opinionated, and apparently I'm also a idiot and a glutton for punishment to Even post to this thread. But WHATEVER!

First point:
Why in the world are you using the bible to prove that Life starts at conception? Is there one thing in this book that is medically relevant about anything?

Second point:
Now the obvious, Christians are the only ones that believe in the bible, so if the Christians believe what this book says then all others are supposed to believe also and to not have a opinion on this matter? wow talk about pride!

Third point:
Medical science should be the ones to determine when human life begins, we depend on them to heal us when we are sick, we should depend on them to make these decisions. If you don't agree, and wish your God to make this decision from his book, then you should not goto the doctor when you are sick and you should depend on your God to heal you.

As for Abortion being right or wrong, or legal or illegal, I'm a male and I have No Right to make such decisions for women!

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Ok I'm bold and opinionated, and apparently I'm also a idiot and a glutton for punishment to Even post to this thread. But WHATEVER!

You sure said that right!

As for Abortion being right or wrong, or legal or illegal, I'm a male and I have No Right to make such decisions for women!

Great insight DragonFire. Truth has been spoken.

Originally posted by ValhallasValkyrie
Do you still think it is right to force a girl to carry the child of her father/brother/uncle/cousin?

It's better than forcing a girl to murder her unborn child and then to have to live with that knowledge and guilt - Why add murder to the list of difficulties that the poor girl would have to live with?

You are not God. You do not have the right to choose for every woman. You only have the right to choose for yourself.

Right.

But remember this - the woman who commits abortion isn't choosing death for herself - she's choosing death for a child. She isn't killing herself - she's killing a child. She isn't stopping her own heart from beating - she's stopping someone elses. So the woman who commits abortion is the one playing God. She has chosen death for someone else - and isn't choosing death for herself.

Originally posted by dAlen
Seems like a BTS Theological discussion.

I agree with the OP ... and I agree with this statement as well.
This belongs in BTS Theological discussions.

Adoption is the only way to go if you feel you can't handle a rape/incest.
I heard the testimony the other day of a girl who was adopted after her mother was raped.

NO

You have no right to try to tell women who are in this position what is the only right way to go.

Unless you have been in such a position, you have NO right to even comment on it.

I think that is half the problem here. People who have no idea what something is like thinking they have the right to determine how the reprecussions of those things should be and how a woman should handle them.

Till you have been in that position, you have NO clue what you are talking about. And until then, gods forbid it ever happens, sit down and hush.

It is attitudes like that that leave teens feeling like that have to carry and end up dumping the newborns in dumpsters and crap.

VV

[edit on 10/12/07 by ValhallasValkyrie]

Oh dear. I see we're beating another dead horse today. Again with the life at conception thing.



I wish the rabid would give it a rest. This is the 21st century. Evolve please.

[edit on 12/10/07 by 123143]

Originally posted by ValhallasValkyrie
It is attitudes like that that leave teens feeling like that have to carry and end up dumping the newborns in dumpsters and crap.

thank God for the 'safe drop' places that are starting to be found across the country. They are LOOOOOOOOONG overdue.

BTW - Our daughter is adopted. The adoption waiting list in Alabama (at that time) was 8 years long. We ended up going overseas because of the shortages of babies to adopt here in the USA and the very long waiting time.

Originally posted by 123143
I wish the rabid would give it a rest.

This is the 21st century. Evolve please.

Who is 'rabid' and do you want to 'evolve'? Those trying to save lives? Or those who want to painfully rip pre-born children into a hundred pieces and have their body parts sold to medical labs for experiments?

(and yes, the pre-born feel pain. That's well documented)

Who isn't 'evolved' in your eyes?