no lies? no conspiracies? ok.....Then why all the secrecy!?

Simple question to all debunkers and skeptics of governmental foul play and collusion pertaining to the most controversial subjects of all time like 911 for example. Why hide details if there is nothing to lie about?
Why is it that every time something big happens...government forces are always there moments later to clean up and gather the evidence and seemingly put a tight lid on the operation?
Im not talking about safety precautions for chemical spills for which extreme cautionary procedures must be taken (that explains the biohazard suits at the pentagon crash sight...or does it?). I am referring to specific moments when camera footage is taken away or eyewitness accounts and affidavits are held back from the medias attention and im even questioning the infamous blacked out words in declassified documents....SHOW US EVERYTHING!!!

Its 2007 and i think the american people can take it so no more "its a national security issue" BS!!! Half the population is so deep in dept and despair that they probably wont even be paying attention.

PENTAGON:
If it was so simple as a plane crashing into the building then where are all the damn videos showing the huge airborn object demolishing itself into the side of the pentagon!? I saw a picture of the roof and there must have been about 10 cameras...DUHHH!!! What happend to those tapes!! O yea let me guess, they didnt release them because televising the viewpoint from the roof of the pentagon is a national security issue.....BS!! Total BS!
When you take a cookie from the cookie jar you make up all sorts of nonsense to prove your innocents and since you did it when no one was home there is no actual proof....but hey guess what?? Someone was home that day and the cameras caught it so why not show us!!??

this qeuestion is for all you over zealous debunkers out there who go through so much effort putting together these posts with complicated physics and math trying to proove these outlandish claims like a 757 boeing jet flew into the pentagon (and did wonders to the lawn in front!). Well....you have been fooled because why make it so complicated if it was o so simple as a plane crash? THEY SET IT UP THAT WAY DUMMY! They made it so that the only investigation that you can do will and must include complicated theories using physics and math so no once can explain...but they have the videos so i say SHOW US!!


mod edit: caps in title

[edit on 11/26/2007 by kinglizard]

IM tired of fuzzy photos and snowy videos....we know for a fact that certain things were captured on film so how do we force the hard evidence out of the hands of big brother? All you debunkers out there....why should we beleive anything the media portrays or what the government says as truth if we know the evidence is out there and intentionally being held back?!

Some say they don't release the footage because it would be insensitive to the "families" who lost loved ones in the crash...

Hmmm, well they played the WTC impact footage over and over and over again, without reguard to the family members. I don't see any reason they should keep those tapes hidden (probably destroyed by now... SOL, ya know?). People have already been traumatized and seen planes full of people (supposedly) slamming into buildings... I think everybody can handle it by now. At the very least, why not release them to an independent investigative team and let them analyze the tapes? No harm done there. Or put them on the internet and let the people decide whether or not they want to watch them, thus avoiding the family members of the victims who don't wanna keep being reminded over and over again when watching the news.

They've got something to hide OBVIOUSLY. That's why the secrecy. That's why the denial. That's why the ridicule. That's why the defamation of character.

Let's see debunkers try explaining that away.

This country has complicated security procedures, and the whole "covering up because they wanted to hide their stupidity" cop out isn't gunna work anymore. They knew exactly what was happening. At the very least, they let the terrorists run the planes into the towers, knew what they were gunna do, and took advantage of the situation fully by preparing for it (i.e. explosive charges in the towers, the CD of building 7).

These debunkers are doing a disservice to humanity by continuing to play upon the minds of the traumatized and unintelligent denyers. You can deny all you want when "smart people" are telling you there's nothing to question. When debunking pieces are presented with intelligent wit and blinding an uninformed average joe with facts and figures.

This is not a "truth movement" trend thing. People get behind this NOT because they are uninformed or misguided, but because they remember.... they remember the voice at the back of their heads on that day that said "something isn't right". I know I had that voice, but supressed it for so long because it was just too big of a conspiracy to believe. That's the whole problem here... is that people hesitate to believe in conspiracies because of the stigma they've always had attached to them. So any "evidence" to the contrary is enough for them to stop questioning such things. It's simple psychology. People don't want to have their trust in someone/something broken. It hurts very badly.

That's why women stay with abusive cheating boyfriends for so long, because they don't wanna believe the truth until it's thrust in their face so they can't deny it anymore. Unfortunately, we don't have anyone caught red handed in the act... So people can still go about their business and play stupid, because anything other than that is a burden to their comfortable little world.

It's that simple... and very sad...not to mention frightening. What is it gunna take next time to get the message across to people?



[edit on 26-11-2007 by indierockalien]

Some people thought 911 would make people stand up and wake up but.....we have sadly gone in the opposite direction. Creating an invisible enemy that cannot be directly defeated was the smartest thing the government has ever done. Sounds familiar doesnt it? Almost like the old saying "The greates feat the _______ has ever achieved is convincing the world he doesnt exist!" Of course i cant fill in the blank becuase associated our government with the word that fits will probably get me labeled as a Nazi or something when in reality i see problems with my country and i want to fix them, not purely condemn them.

I agree 100%

If there's nothing to hide, why hide?

Why not show me the security camera's from the pentagon?
Why black out large quantities of eviednce from the official report?
Why spend only a FRACTION of the $$ spent on investigating various other historical incidents.



If this was a genuine, surprise terrorist attack it needed to be completely investigated and revealed...

What would be the point of releasing any sort of video at this point? All the woo-woos out there who are convinced that everything from Apollo to the cost of black olives is a conspiracy would just call it a fake. There are tons of videos and photos from the WTC attacks and you nutters have come up with everything from hydrogen bombs to directed energy weapons to explain why the video is wrong!

As far as redacted information in released documents goes, that's standard operating procedure to sanitize elements that reveal information deemed as not necessary to release to the public. For instance, would YOU want your name and current address released to the public just because you gave a deposition in an investigation? Or, do you think it's safe to refer to a person and their assignment if that assignment deals with something of a clandestine nature? People are screaming bloody murder about the "outing" of Valerie Plame as a CIA agent. Face it people: there are just some things that you don't need to know.

I have my doubts about how thorough the information was that was passed along to us after 9/11. I'd like to know more about what was known ahead of time and what could have been done to prevent it. I'd like to know more about why our intellegence services are apparently unable to speak the same language.

At this point in the history of 9/11, the waters are too muddy. One woo-woo puts up a webpage of his theory. Another guy puts up a webpage with a similar theory and sites questionable data (read completely made-up data) from the original guy's site. Then another guy comes along and plagerizes those two guys with his own webpage and links to all sorts of loose ends and everything from before is just assumed to be absolute fact. Nobody wants to believe the official report, but there's nothing any more reliable out there. Structural engineers and physicists use provable mathematics and observable models to work out the hows and whys of an event. If you don't want to believe those guys, what do you propose we do? Do you have time to go back to college? A prime example is the use of the term "free-fall speed" to describe the collapse of the towers. From the first time I saw that term used and remembered the image of the collapse, that didn't make sense. Now it's parroted by the nutters as a proven fact when in fact it's easily proven false.

I'm tired of typing now, but I'll leave you with this thought:

If you lack the training to understand the physics of the events of 9/11, why would you believe an anonymous screen name on a bulletin board any more than a physicist on TV?

reply to post by StudioGuy


I like this, I much prefer being called a woo woo than a conspiracy, tin foil hat wearing, nut job. Thanks StudioGuy

Look at me, I'm a woo woo because I think my government is lying to me!

Seriously, if you have nothing to hide, then show us!

One reason I can think of that agencies block certain details from being known to the public is for security.

Say some terrorist group watches all the security tapes and they learn from it. Would you want them to figure out what they did wrong so they can cause more destruction and terror the second time around??

Another reason I think agencies collect and hide or distort information is to basically cover their asses and to not reveal their tactics used for gathering information. With all the tips that agencies get everyday they have to determine whats plausible and what isn't. If the general public learns the govt had prior knowledge to an attack and did nothing then they get a lot of flak i.e Pearl Harbor and 9/11. Like i said they're just trying to cover their ass, but doesn't mean i agree with it. They need to accept responsibly for their screw up.

reply to post by Cowgirlstraitup7


Glad I could help. There may be an official definition for a woo-woo, but I'd generally say it's a person who wouldn't actually recognize the truth if it were painted on a wall for them. For example, a woo-woo can see a video of a person reading the menu at a fast food restaurant and contrive a whole series of explanations ranging from a corporate plot to destroy MTV to the government's involvment in gene mutations of cattle stock. The truth is that the dude is just deciding between some mcnuggets or a big mac.

All the people who are so lathered up over what they think happened that day should really consider whether there's anything that they would accept as proof. A hundred angles of the same airplane hitting the south tower still hasn't convinced some people that an airplane even hit! A multitude of very smart people can explain the collapse of the towers, including WTC7, in very understandable terms. But some guy with a tin-foil hat doesn't "believe" that those steel buildings should have collapsed under the physical loads without the use of explosives and now there's an entire movement.

I do believe our government lies to us daily. But I also believe 9/11 can be taken at face value. It amazes me how many people think the whole operation was too complicated for an organization with virtually unlimited funds and a focused purpose to pull off the attacks, but the president who had been in office for only 8 months and is reviled by many as a complete idiot could pull it together and not have any sort of verifiable leak. I just wish some people would put as much effort into trying to unravel a real threat as they do into trying to make themselves feel good about watching hours of youtube videos.






[edit on 26-11-2007 by StudioGuy]

reply to post by StudioGuy

Youre not hearing what im typing here though.....they said a plane hit the pentagon and if it truly was that simple then show is the tapes. We all know there are probably hundreds of tapes that were confiscated but if it really was that simple then they should be happy to squash and skepticism with the real tapes. Youre right when you say it might be too late though because they should have gone public with them from the beginning.

I think that a majority of us are rational woo-woo's. We saw the planes hit the towers, that is what happened. The hologram thing..well whatever, I don't buy it at all. If they released the pentagon footage then that would end the whole conspiracy of a missile hitting the building. Maybe they are trying to doctor the tapes to make them look like a plane was hitting, you never know. I do agree though, they need to release the footage. We need to know what happened there. As for victims family members, I am sure there are some out there that want the video released for closure. Some may have a hard time swallowing the official story, and would want to see for themselves that a plane actually hit.

If they did release the video and it did show a legit plane hitting, that still wouldn't change most of us rational woo-woo's minds about US government involvement.

Originally posted by StudioGuy
you nutters

Gee. Wonder where the rest of this post is going to lead?

Sorry, but I'm not a nutter. I am an educated man. I have an IQ over 120. Yet, I'm a "nutter" because I question the official story?

Please.

Originally posted by StudioGuy
If you lack the training to understand the physics of the events of 9/11, why would you believe an anonymous screen name on a bulletin board any more than a physicist on TV?

From my experience here, it is not the "nutters" that don't understand physics.

BsBray is an engineer. Valhall is an engineer. Pootie is an engineer. sPoon1 is an engineer. And I am a civil/structural engineer. We all question the events of that day.

I have yet to hear some "debunker" even come close to our understanding of physics. Again. Please.

Originally posted by zarlaan
One reason I can think of that agencies block certain details from being known to the public is for security.

Say some terrorist group watches all the security tapes and they learn from it. Would you want them to figure out what they did wrong so they can cause more destruction and terror the second time around??

How about this?

Why are the construction documents of a building that will never exist again placed into classified?

Security? That the terrorists would figure out how to blow up a non-existant building?

If the general public learns the govt had prior knowledge to an attack and did nothing then they get a lot of flak i.e Pearl Harbor and 9/11. Like i said they're just trying to cover their ass, but doesn't mean i agree with it. They need to accept responsibly for their screw up.

I agree. I'm sick of the "just incompetence" excuse.

[edit on 11/27/2007 by Griff]

Personally I think anybody who doesn't question what the government does all the time are the real nutters.

I find it funny that most people who support government use the reasoning that Humans are naturally bad and can't be trusted to run their own lives. So what makes the people running government any different? If you believe Humans are naturally bad, why would you allow any Humans to have so much power over your lives?

If government is all good and only there to serve the people then there should be NO secrets, NO doubts to their sincerity.

Those that except without question are the 'nutters'.

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by StudioGuy
If you lack the training to understand the physics of the events of 9/11, why would you believe an anonymous screen name on a bulletin board any more than a physicist on TV?

From my experience here, it is not the "nutters" that don't understand physics.

Well it depends on the theory they are putting forward as to whether to describe them as a "nutter" or not.

BsBray is an engineer. Valhall is an engineer. Pootie is an engineer. sPoon1 is an engineer. And I am a civil/structural engineer. We all question the events of that day.

And you give decent reasons as to why you question it as well, where some people don't.

I have yet to hear some "debunker" even come close to our understanding of physics. Again. Please.

And therein lies the problem, whats needed is a proper scientific debate, but as soon as a trace of well thought out scientific knowledge presents itself on either side, the other generally seems to ignore it. This is the thing, when you put an actual detailed point of why it looks like a controlled demo and include some actual dynamics, mechanism or whatever into a discussion it actually convinces people. Whereas unfounded opinions without some decent explanation or with fuzzy video just doesn't work so well. Except with people who don't seem to believe that science actually answers anything or just believe something as long as it's in video form.

from what I understand there are multiple scientists on both sides that present arguments. Why dont we get the information that they present and discuss that..... There are engineers and physicists that have discussed and presented arguments...Just try not to quote Popular Mechanics and their WEAK arguments in which their hidden agenda hides behind.. Lets post and discuss real science if we are going to discuss the collapse. Lets also quit calling people nutters, woo-woo, and crazy...I know its hard this subject makes me insanely upset too. Just realize the passion you feel for your side is the same passion others feel for thiers.

Well maybe, just maybe ..... all those cameras on that side of
the Pentacon was not working at that particular time due to
the construction going on. If they were not working then there
would be no footage of that side of the Pentacon other than
the viewpoint of a camera which wasn't involved with the new
construction like the guard shack entrance video. Just maybe
and I do mean MAYBE ..... that's all the footage they do have
from the Pentacon perspective. But that still would not account
for all the other cameras like the gas station and the hotel.

Thinking on that theme reminds me of a line from the movie
"The sum of all fears" starring Morgan Freeman and Ben Afleck.
When the Russian President was with his top adviser in the elevator
after the US thought he bombed those innocent people. The
Russian President stated this line which could be used in this
instance:

"It's better to be thought a liar, than incompetent"

cept in this case could mean BOTH


[edit on 27-11-2007 by Zeta115]

[edit on 27-11-2007 by Zeta115]

I go with my gut instincts and through meditation I have learned to hone in on it very well. When I watched the original news broadcasts on that atrocious day I felt nothing for the "victims" on the aircraft. I felt horrible for the people in the buildings but as I said there was absolutely no pity or sense of sympathy for people on the "aircrafts" involved.

I hope you all understand where I am coming from with this. Even today its an empty vacuous feeling and I understand this feeling is due to the fact that there were no victims on the participating aircraft(s).

Watching people hang and fall from the towers tears my heart to shreds- but the planes; nothing.

I do not know if the aircraft was a mass hypnotic illusion to disguise them as missiles- but I do not rule anything out.

I whole heartedly agree with the main thread issue which is why all the secrecy if there is nothing to hide. Achem's Razor- the simplest answer tends to be the right one- WE WERE CONNED.

To argue the facts detail by detail merely drives our attention away from current events- which I believe is the main intent. Leaving out crucial information plants suspicion , doubt, failure and hopelessness- which if one feels hopeless then one becomes lost, confused and easy to lead. I am not such a person.

The government has absolutely no compunction in showing us the harrowing events and recordings of all kinds of disasters- this cover-up propaganda style approach is quite typical when they have something to hide.

These are our leaders and trusted servants for the public- AND THEY DO NOT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT ANY OF US!

Very few of us are in there making a real difference- this is why a major intervention is going to occur and these "trusted" servants are going to be knocked off their collective arses!

If there is nothing to hide, the powers that be post the materials to validate their Official story. They did not, have not and will not- so again I refer to Achem's Razor.

This is a most excellent thread.

[edit on 27-11-2007 by dk3000]

No truth bashers on this post. I wonder why. Just one unaltered pic from any angle that shows the plane approaching the pentegon would silence a big part of the argument. And you would think the government would relish the chance to squelch the rising mass of people questioning everything about 911.