Challenge Match. Rockets Red Glare v Loki: Illegal World Order (revised and reopened)

The topic for this debate is "Illegal immigration is being used as a tool to implement the New World Order on the United States".

rockets red glare will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Loki will argue the con position.

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Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

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This is a challenge match between a ranked and unranked fighter. The wager is 2 points. rockets red glare is awarded 2 points to wager. If he wins, he keeps them and Loki loses 2. If Loki wins, he recieves RRG's 2 points. Loki's ranking will be calculated and posted in the ranking ladder within one day.

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[edit on 23-11-2007 by The Vagabond]

[edit on 24-11-2007 by The Vagabond]

This debate is now reopened. Rockets Red Glare may make his opening statement.

[edit on 24-11-2007 by The Vagabond]

Hello to all the ATS members: I have been challenged by Loki to a debate about whether our government has an unofficial immigration policy to allow refugees / immigrants to continue to enter the United States illegally to quicken the creation of a North American Union and ultimately the New World Order. I will do my best to prove this as I suggested in my original thread. We will also debate whether if even having the discussion of is racist and xenophobic as suggested by loki in his first response to my thread!

The New World Order.

Or NWO, as some prefer to call it.

A global system of government, the size and scope of which we have never seen before. Common themes include thought policing, extensive unconstitutional surveillance, and a worldwide conspiracy to 'keep us under control.' A Conspiracy Theorist's wet dream.

So, "What?" you may ask does this have to do with Illegal Immigration?

Nothing, my friends.

Illegal Immigration refers to the act of voluntarily relocating to the United States of America, in violation of US Immigration and Nationalization policies, commonly by illegally crossing the US border or by violating the terms of officially-sanctioned documents like Tourist or Student Visas.

As for the numbers:

In March of 2006 the Pew Hispanic Center estimated the undocumented population ranged from 11.5 to 12 million individuals, a number supported by the US Government Accountability Office (GAO). Pew estimated that 57% of this population comes from Mexico and about half of them are illegal; 25% from Central America and, to a much lesser extent, South America (which has no road access to the US); 9% from Asia; 6% from Europe, and the remaining 4% from elsewhere.

Source: Wikipedia

I will prove to you all that this pittance of our population (less than 10% of the total estimated 300 million Americans) does not, and CAN not influence the development of such a 'New World Order', and furthermore that there can be no logical correlation between illegal immigration and such an idea as the "NWO".

We cannot allow our distaste for Illegal Immigration, and those who enter our country illegally cloud our vision of the truth. Theories that involve the US being 'swarmed under' or 'taken over' by illegals are without a basis in reality, and in my opinion, reflect something deeper within ourselves, perhaps a jealousy, a desire to prevent others from attaining opportunity and realizing the same dreams that we have. Perhaps we are threatened by those who will work hard for everything that they want in life. It is no secret that the vast majority of Americans have some sort of problem, in one way or another, with Illegals.

I am here to show that we can, and should turn the Illegal Immigration "problem" to our own advantage. Rather than trying to make the immigration stop (which is impossible at this time) we should be concentrating on how we can facilitate the process.

reply to post by Loki


My opponent would have you believe that there is no plan for a New World Order or a North American Union. I must disagree’ Since the beginning of civilization and the advent of government states have coalesced in larger states. For example first came “tribal village states” as they grew in size, and population they became “city states” over time as the number of city states increased we found regional states as the populations of the world increased and wars ever larger city and regional states coalesced to farm “nation states” . Now we see the a new sort of ‘state emerging in ‘continent state” as you see in the European Union.
Many people such as my opponent believe that the idea of the continent state is nothing more than a fabrication including the continent state the North American Union. However we have seen it happen in our own lifetime in the E.U. Some of these Nation States have not adopted the new E.U. Constitution but, some have. There are also many nation states of Europe wanting to join the E.U. ,as we speak they are waiting. For example Turkey.
I give you a quote by Enrique Berruga, Mexico's ambassador to the United Nations, came right out and said a North American Union is needed – and even provided a deadline.
We need a N. American Union in 8 years. www.worldnetdaily.com... We have seen three presidents in a row discuss the need for a N.W.O. pres Bush #41, Bill Clinton #42 and Bush #43. www.youtube.com... and www.youtube.com... This is far from an accident that they keep pushing and repeating the Idea of the NOW.
We have seen congressmen warn us of that the immigration bill that failed was an attempt at the NAU.
www.aim.org...
I respectfully ask the every American reading this. Are we a Nation of laws or men?
We have seen three presidents in a row discuss the need for a N.W.O. pres Bush #41, Bill Clinton #42 and Bush #43. www.youtube.com... and www.youtube.com... This is far from an accident that they keep pushing and repeating the Idea of the NOW.
We have seen congressmen warn us of that the immigration bill that failed was an attempt at the NAU.
www.aim.org...
I respectfully ask the every American reading this. Are we a Nation of laws or men?
My opponent seems to think that the fear of hard working people coming to America and racism is behind the anger that most American have about illegal aliens and illegal immigrants. Not so. We welcome 2 million immigrants every year into this nation. More than any other nation in the world! It is not fear, it is not racism It is about respect for our sovernty and law and nothing else! Many people don’t want to believe it could really be as simple as that but, it is that simple..
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could see the same respect for our laws from our politicians, the ilegals and some of our own citizens that we see from immigrants that have followed our laws and showed the American people the respect that they deserve, while waiting there turn to come to the U.S., “the right way“.
The legal way. We have had numerous waves of immigration in our nations past. But, they didn’t just walk in . And they didn’t openly defy the American people and challenge them to enforce the law and disrespect our flag and all we stand for! They came with permission or were held in places like Ellis Island until they were granted entry.
Now to get to the heart of the matter! Why does our government continue to allow, tolerate this massive wave of illegal immigration? The American people are truly angry and they have a right to be! This is a Representative Republic but, we are not being represented.

While I agree with my opponent's assertion that a one world government, or a regional government is slowly becoming a reality, I still fail to see how that has anything to do with illegal immigration.

As for his issue regarding representation of the public interest in our government; I agree, but again, I fail to see where it has a bit of relevance to the issue of illegal immigration.

There are 4 evolutionary forces that apply to human beings; Natural Selection, Genetic Drift, Mutation, and (Here's the important one) Migration. Human beings are known to have migrated from place to place throughout prehistory, and even during recorded times. So we know that this "Mass Migration" of illegals is not by any means an invention of devious persons who wish to usher in a New World Order.

Ravenstein's 'laws of migration'

Certain laws of social science have been proposed to describe human migration. The following was a standard list after Ravenstein's proposals during the time frame of 1834 to 1913. The laws are as follows:

1. Most migrants travel short distances and with increasing distance the numbers of migrants decrease. This law is based upon the assumptions that the higher travel costs and a lack of knowledge of more distant places acts against large volumes of migration.
2. Migration occurs in stages and with a wave-like motion. Based on his observations in the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries that migration occurred in steps with people gradually moving up the settlement hierarchy - from rural areas to villages, to towns, to cities and finally the capital city.
3. Migration increases in volume as industries and commerce develop and transport improves, and the major direction of movement is from agricultural areas to centres of industry and commerce.
4. Most Migrants are adult. Families rarely migrate out of their country of birth.
5. Women are more migratory than men within their country of birth but men more frequently venture beyond it.
6. Urban dwellers are less likely to move than their rural counterparts.

Source

The above set of laws illustrates that what we are seeing in America as an 'epidemic' of illegal aliens entering our country is in fact a predictable and measurable product of both our own success economically, and human behavior.

There is one thing that illegals come to us for, and I can't spell it any plainer than this: The American Dream.

The term American Dream has had many shades of meaning throughout American history. Today, it generally refers to the idea that one's prosperity depends upon one's own abilities and hard work, not on a rigid class structure. For some, it is the opportunity to achieve more prosperity than they could in their countries of origin; for others, it is the opportunity for their children to grow up with an education and career opportunities; for still others, it is the opportunity to be an individual without the constraints imposed by class, caste, race, or ethnicity.

Are we really in the business of denying that right to people here in America? because I thought that the Declaration of Independence said that:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Immigration is not part of a massive conspiracy to put us under the control of the NWO. Nobody here has the moral obligation (or authority, for that matter) to decide which people (who are our equals, no matter what anyone thinks) get the opportunity to pursue a life that was guaranteed to them. Not even rabid Patriots. Not even our government (that's one of the ideas our country was founded on!).

reply to post by Loki


My opponent now agrees with my assertion that a one world government, or a regional government is slowly becoming a reality but he fails to see what that has to do with illegal immigration. In his opening statement he gave you the Pew Hispanic Center estimated of the number of illegal aliens from 3/06 (very out of date) and taken directly from government estimates.
Make no mistake, the way the gov. estimates is a farce! As we saw the results of the 1986 amnesty. Nearly 3 times as many applied than were even thought to be here and fraud was rampant.
Here are a sample of other studies of the true number of illegal aliens/refugees in the united states.
www.cap-s.org...
www.immigrationcounters.com...
My opponent speaks about the evolutionary forces, He “speaks of prehistoric migration patters” and states that it is not “invention of devious persons who wish to usher in a New World Order“.
The Mexican government has aided (even as they say they are tying to quell the flow) of illegal’s entering The U.S.. They have given out pamphlets to help navigate the border, and to seek aid once here and how to use the American legal system to remain here.
I don’t claim that the refugees that are coming into the country are doing so because they care about a NOW or a NAU they are coming to work, (at least most of them are), Others for very different reasons. But, for the gov. and business it is about the Money, about the NAU and NOW.
Now I would like to bring your attention to the reasons why our Government resists taking action and enforcing the law.
Joint Statement
Prime Minister Harper, President Bush and President Calderón
North American Leaders’ Summit
August 21, 2007
Montebello, Quebec, Canada
We, the leaders of Canada, Mexico and the United States, have met in Montebello todiscuss the opportunities and challenges facing North America and to establish priorities
for our further collaboration.
“alleviate bottlenecks at the US-Mexico border, facilitate the legitimate flow of tradeand people” In other words labor will be treated like goods and services!!
www.spp.gov...
www.americanpolicy.org...
This I why Our government ignores the LAW, ignores the Will of the people, ignores the constitution, and ignores the democratic process! They have another agenda !
Here is a photo of the new N. Carolina Drivers License www.worldnetdaily.com...
Only problem is it is a N. American Union Drivers Licence.

N. American students trained for 'merger'
10 universities participate in 'model Parliament' in Mexico to simulate 'integration' of 3 nations www.prisonplanet.com... My friends America is a nation of laws! It is very obvious that our government refuses to take action because there are powerful people and forces in business that want the NAU and NOW and there is another group for whom this is ideology driven. They have manipulated the politics by corrupting our lawmakers. It doesn’t mater why people immigrate we have a set of well considered and “by the standards of every country in the world’ extremely liberal” laws on immigration. But, that still isn’t good enough for some.
In the end the 3 governments can integrate everything but, at some point they will need to have a vote for a new government and a new constitution. 80% of Americans are against it and you can bet citizens of Mexico and Canada are not to happy either .

In the end the 3 governments can integrate everything but, at some point they will need to have a vote for a new government and a new constitution. 80% of Americans are against it and you can bet citizens of Mexico and Canada are not to happy either .

This is a completely unsubstantiated claim with no proof or reasoning to back it up other than the opinion of my opponent.

I'm not even going to dog you for linking Prison Planet and World Net Daily as credible, but you should rethink your news source is all I'm saying.

I'm also still reading nothing that can link illegal immigration with the imminent arrival of this New World Order (Which is a total misnomer, by the way, if my opponent is referring exclusively to the North American Union movement.)

The way that I interpret what my opponent is arguing is that he believes the the North American Union is the harbinger of the New World Order, and that since such a large percentage of Americans oppose such a thing, as he has told us they have, the nefarious ne'er do wells behind the plot are encouraging illegals to infiltrate our borders in the hopes that when the matter comes down to a vote in the US, they will have the numbers to put it through. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is the general framework of my opponent's Theory.

Let me see...

1. Illegal Aliens do not have the right to vote in these United States, nor will they likely have it anytime soon. There have been movements for this before, but each has been defeated constitutionally. And honestly, that's the way it should be. In the purist models of democracy, voting is a right given to citizens only.

2. Illegal Aliens will come to America regardless of the intent of a group of elite who wish it. Occam's razor is a useful tool for this situation. The simplest explanation is most likely the truth, and let me just say that the ideas my opponent set forth are fairly complex. The world does not run on plot twists. It runs on money, and that's what they are here for (The Illegals, not the NWO. They already have all the money).

3. Keeping on with the razor, let's take a look at the idea that the matter will come to a vote. There would be no reason for this sort of complicated plot to further the ends of the power elite, they own all the media in the country. It would be much simpler to launch a public information campaign that would ease people into the idea, or promote the idea subliminally through programming and advertising. Or, an even simpler method would be to indoctrinate people with the 'global community' angle. It would be very easy indeed to appeal to peoples' logic in such a situation, after all; people can convince themselves far easier than they can be convinced by another. If you give someone the seed of an Idea, and let them nurture it, then tell them what a great idea it is, they will recognize it as such and adopt it as their own. It's been done before, and with no need for 15 million illegals.

4. I'm seeing inconsistencies here. In one sentence my opponent waves off my evidence because I use government-based estimates, which he states are poorly made, so much as to be off by 90%. Yet I have here a part of the legal disclaimer for the conveniently and misleadingly named www.immigrationcounters.com (emphasis added)

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: ImmigrationCounters.com provides the Site as a free source of useful information to the general public. Significant effort is made to provide what is determined to be the most reliable data and as such is published in good faith. The data provided is reviewed periodically yet because of the nature of numbers related to illegal immigration, information on this Site may contain technical inaccuracies or typographical errors.

which is basically a nice way of saying "We had some guy in the mailroom guess at the numbers then we slapped a cool html counter on it to make it seem legit."

At any rate, I see piles and piles of evidence for an Impending North American Union (which is not inherently a bad thing, by the way) but not a single shred of evidence linking it to Illegal Immigration, in any capacity whatsoever

reply to post by Loki


Yes it is my contention that at some point to completely integrate the three nations into one it will come down to a vote! That is the only way it can constitutionally be done. The problem for the NAU supports is that the citizens of the Of the United States are overwhelming against such change. For good reasons. Why would the American people exchange the most inspired liberal document for freedom and the greatest blueprint for government ever produced by man? A document that most Americans cherish. The wouldn’t, of course!
My opponent asked for substantiation, here it is! There have been polls in America on this very subject!
www.prisonplanet.com...
www.informationliberation.com...
www.worldnetdaily.com...
As for Mexico, I couldn’t find any polls or info on the way Mexico views the NAU, So I can only tell you that my wife is Mexican. I have spoke to her family and our friends in Mexico and almost all of them feel the same way as we do, they are against it! They think it is a way for the U.S. and Canada to steal their natural resources.
If it waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are , it’s a duck!
The Immigration act of 1986 gave amnesty to millions of foreigners and they now are voting citizens. The immigration acts of 2006 and 2007 respectively (both failed) would have given not only residence status to tens of millions already here but only gave 24 hours to do checks on those applying for legal status and a path to citizenship, “of course all Americans know this”. There is no way to integrate the nations of North America completely with out a vote! I have I have showed how the American citizens feel about this.
The United state is the fulcrum of this new NAU it would never pass the vote! There is only one way to get the votes needed to pass “ADD VOTERS” . It’s Obvious!
I don’t think it is necessary to go into all the reasons why the American people are so against the N.A.U. and a N.W.O, suffice it to say that they are, overwhelmingly. The flow of illegal’s into our nation and our governments resistance to stop it is clear once the facts are laid out for all to see! They need the future votes to counter and disinfranchise the citizens of america!!

I think my opponent may have slipped up and ruined his argument in that last post. If indeed the goal of this New World Order is to flood the American voting pool with illegals so that they can win the vote to "Take over our country", then obviously they have picked the wrong people, by your own admission.

...have spoke to her family and our friends in Mexico and almost all of them feel the same way as we do, they are against it!

...I have I have showed how the American citizens feel about this.

No, you have you have not. Your CNN poll was taken on CNN.com, open to the perusal of the entire world, not just America, which contaminates the votes. AND: the number of people surveyed was less than 10,000 making it irrelevant as a societal cross-section as not enough people were surveyed.

But that's neither here nor there, if we were so opposed to it there is no way enough illegals could be shoved into America to turn that vote, especially with as many of them opposed to it as Americans.

Furthermore, you said that:

...They need the future votes to counter and disinfranchise the citizens of america!!

You do realize that any person born on American soil is an American citizen regardless of parentage? In the future, they'll be just like us...just a bit more brown.

My opponent asked for substantiation...

Yes, I did. I asked for a cogent thesis on the topic of the debate, which was:

The topic for this debate is "Illegal immigration is being used as a tool to implement the New World Order on the United States".

At every turn, you threw Prison Planet and World Net Daily links out, sites with news coverage that is highly suspect, and undoubtedly slanted. Your 'substantiation' was little more than a loosely connected series of ideas in which you claimed that Illegal Immigrants are bringing about the New World Order, with no link between the behaviors of illegals and the building of this North American Union.

My opponent's theory regarding 'stealing votes' is sheer speculation, as he failed to produce a substantial piece of evidence that naturalized immigrants would be any more inclined to vote in favor of this union than Americans.

Look, the fact of the matter is that they are unrelated issues. The only reason that immigration has become such a dilemma in this country is that it is a Red Herring meant to draw attention away from trouble in the middle east, including the Iraq war, The Israeli clusterfu*k, The lack of progress in the "War on Terror (Al Qaeda)", and also the 450% increase in opium production from Afghanistan.

If it waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are , it’s a duck!

Or a Platypus...

reply to post by Loki


I want to thank my opponent Loki for this debate , Vegabond for moderating and all of you that are interested in the in the most important issue. It is probably the most Important issue that we face as a nation because it is our very nation at risk.
I have tried to keep this debate squarely on the issue of the “why our gov. refuses to represent the citizens of this nation‘. I would like to however answer a couple issue my opponent brought up.
My opponent said: A global system of government, the size and scope of which we have never seen before. Common themes include thought policing, extensive unconstitutional surveillance, and a worldwide conspiracy to 'keep us under control.' A Conspiracy Theorist's wet dream. This had nothing to do with this discussion! We are not talking about what would be the behavior the NOW or a NAU. My opponent said: Are we really in the business of denying that right to people here in America? because I thought that the Declaration of Independence said that:
My opponent posted the founding fathers:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
What My opponent seems to suggest here, is that because our Founding Fathers recognized the natural and spoke of them in the declaration of independence law and enumerated them in the bill of rights. That they also extended these rights to every person alive on the planet, not just to American citizens. That any foreign national subject to a foreign government could come into our nation, squat and demand their civil rights.! Nothing could be further from the truth and I am surprised my opponent would even suggest something so ludicrous!
My opponent also brought up the “anchor baby” problem. The truth is that the 14th amendment has a clause,
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.
“subject to the jurisdiction thereof”. This clause is all about the parents of children born in the United states. It is why subjects of foreign nations who’s children that are born in the United States are not considered United States citizens (such as diplomats) This Clause also is relevant to the children of illegal’s. The trouble is that it is not enforced as it should be.
idexer.com...
It seems that since my opponent has been unable to refute the message, he has instead tried to attack the messenger. That is usually the desperate act of someone who is loosing. It’s petty but; sometimes effective! But , not in this debate and not when dealing with knowledgeable people. The CNN poll was taken here in the U.S. World Net Daily is a very respected news source with millions of readers every day! In fact it has more readers than many large daily newspapers! It would be more becoming to make your point than to attack their credibility.
Now, to get back to the issue and the reason for the debate. I have repeatedly asked why so many politicians refuse to represent their constituents on the issue of immigration. They of Course would never come out and tell the folks who elected them that they will not represent them on this issue and that they prefer to give more weight to the concerns of those who are here illegally, than the concerns of the people who elected them, to represent them! Once again , why? They would never admit to their corruption or that their ideology trumps your right to be represented.

Once again, this is probably the most important issue you will face in the years to come. It should be paramount on everyone list. That is why I brought the issue up and agreed to this debate. If my opponent is correct there is no NWO or NAU we have to simply deal with the refugees. If I am correct, and we do nothing we loose our nation our seventy and our constitution! If you trust current politicians to be wiser than our founding fathers , this may not be so bad. If you don’t it’s time to get active and demand to be represented!

I'd like to thank The Vagabond for mediating, rockets red glare for participating, and everyone on ATS who took a look at the topic for reading.

On the subject of the North American Union, I'd like to first say that I would be in favor of a regionalized body of government for North America. I have not honestly done enough research into the ongoing project to make any judgements on it at the time being.

America is entering a long, steady decline, and it has very little to do with Illegal Immigration. Some would point to the strength of "Our" economy to dispute this fact, but in the real world, America maintains a globalized economy comprised of corporations with assets on every continent in the world. Perhaps a North American Union would give us a localized economic power strong enough to compete with that of China and the EU.

Having said that, I think I've stated firmly, and supported with strong evidence the fact that The New World Order, NWO, or whatever you choose to call it is not utilizing Illegal Immigrants to further their own designs on America. (In fact, I have seen no corellation between the "New World Order" defined in my first post and the North American Union.)

On the subject of Illegal Immigration, it is in fact posing a problem to us as a country. However, it is not a problem that could be deemed 'urgent' or 'front burner'. More serious problems we should be focusing on are: the Iraqi war, our ongoing occupation of Afghanistan, and the pending crisis with Iran.

During this debate we were presented compelling evidence that there is in fact a North American Union coming, partially for the reasons I stated above, but to create a paranoid scenario in which the American people will be disenfranchised by the votes cast by illegal immigrants is simply a misinformed delusion. If one were to logically consider the idea, he would realize that nobody can accurately forecast the voting tendencies of immigrants, especially on an unprecedented matter such as this.

Member judging of this debate will remain open until Friday, at which time judges decisions and the balance of stars awarded by members will be be officially announced.

I'd like to thank both participants for their effort.

With a member-awarded star count of 12-0 in favor of Loki and both judges concurring, Loki is the victor by unanimous decision.

This thread is open for commentary. Judges' comments will be posted soon.

reply to post by The Vagabond


While I had a very difficult task of trying to prove the conspiracy I did my best. Conspiracies by there very nature are hidden and the conspirators as well. It is like proving what is going on behind the scenes at nasa, maybe more so. At best all you can do is take the information you have and extrapalate from that. You take statements and try to assign meaning. The actions of officials and consider intent. Use the documents and glean facts. After that you must come to a clonclusion. My opponent had only to shoot holes in the conspiracy theory " a very easy thing to do" because it is a in the end only a theory.However, my opponent did not produce Any evedence to disproove the theory. He not produce one official statement from a gov. official. He produced not one document. he did produce Some gov. numbers on immigration " but it is a gov. conspiracy we are discussing" so take that into account. I wonder how many of the judges are not from the United States and may have had some bias. This is not an accusation of bias, merly a thought considering a 12-0 vote. I look forward to the members comments on this debate.

[edit on 12/1/2007 by rockets red glare]

Hey, I had a good time. I appreciate the work everyone did on the thread, especially my opponent for not backing down and sticking to his guns.

Hey, remember those things they used to sell on TV? Weebles, weren't they? I think that's what they were called. Weebles wobble but they never fall down, right?

reply to post by rockets red glare


Good job loki, you did well. May nextime I will find something easier to defend!

Yes it was a fairly difficult platform to try to fight from, You really should think very hard about the things I've told you during the debate. While they may both individually be issues that require that sort of dedication, trying to force them into a collective crisis is a tad irrational

reply to post by Loki


The only irrational thing is ignoring the obvious and then to pretend it isn't happening.