Jehovahs Witness, cult or religion?

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

 

Cool, I see that after reading the Illuminati Russell Bloodline link you don't refute the fact that he was from the Illuminati.

You should star me for that.

Care to refute the fact that Westcott and Hort were deeply into the occult? Or that Westcott didn't found the "Hermes Club"? Or that they weren't involved in the Theosophy Society?

i dont have to refute anything... all anyone needs to do to see if they are ¨iluminati¨ influenced is to look at the organization.

you see conspiracy and satan worshippers, which is ironic, because i see the one organization on this god forsaken rock thats actually doing what jesus told them too.

but your too prejudiced to see that.

you want to see hypocrisy, look at the church

I never said JWs are "satan worshipers", I sail their FOUNDER MR. RUSSELL was Illuminati. I said he is from the Russell Illuminati bloodline. I'm talking about JWs "FOUNDER", believe it or not Miriam, words actually mean something.

And secondly, for the record, I do NOT subscribe to ANY church because of great hypocrisy and apostasy today. My walk with Jesus Christ is a PERSONAL one, me and my Bible alone. I'm not a member of ANY church organization.

"Westcott and Hort" were not JWs, they were the ones who brought the world the Greek that ALL modern Bible translations came from. THEY, not regular JWs, were the satan worshipers, THEY, (Westcott and Hort) were involved in the Theosophy Society, WESTCOTT founded the Hermes Club.

If you want to debate me, you really do need to pay attention to what I actually say, I really am not trying to be rude, but it's a pain in my backside to spend half of my posts correcting what I have actually said to you Miriam.

reply to post by miriam0566

so then if everyone faithful goes to heaven, who is the great multitude?

Miriam, that verse tells you who they are. Those people who accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior during the Great Tribulation. Those people who refuse/resist the antichrist and who are martyred for such.

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Remember, the antichrist doesn't begin to murder Christians or Jews until the midpoint of the Tribulation, the midpoint begins the "great" part of the 7 year tribulation. That is when satan begins his quest to exterminate Israel and the Christians, that is when he makes mandatory the mark and the beast worship.

There will be MILLIONS of people who will be saved during the Tribulation. There are millions of people who have accepted Christ as their savior at some point in their lives, but never served him, never changed their life for him, who continued to act like the world. These christians will be left behind. Millions of unsaved people know about the rapture and will flood to the Bible and end time prophecy books, websites, etc when all the major news agencies are reporting "millions of people vanish". They will know that the rapture happened. Also God has anointed 144,000 Jews to witness during the Tribulation, and the 2 prophets as well. Also God has appointed an angel to preach the Word of God to every man woman and child on Earth during the Tribulation.

"Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth - to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people - saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water." (Revelation 14:6-7)

During the tribulation period, millions of people will reject the antichrist and come to the lord. There will also be a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation period as well, that is the "latter rains". The "Early rains" was the great outpouring of the Holy Spirit after Pentecost in the first century.

if the righteous are up in heaven, who inherits the earth?

Remember, when Jesus comes for the church at the rapture, it is to take His "bride" (church) to His "father's house" (heaven) for the marriage supper of the Lamb. He (Jesus) is always referred to as the "bridegroom" and the church as the "bride". See the parable of the 10 virgins. When Jesus comes to Earth itself, not the heavens/clouds, you'll notice that this time he comes WITH His saints to battle the antichrist and set up His kingdom on Earth. The 2nd coming of Jesus Christ is NOT when he comes to the clouds to gather his "bride", but when He comes to Earth and sets foot on the mount of olives to battle the antichrist's army at Armageddon.

Notice at His 2nd coming He comes WITH His saints, not FOR them as He did at the rapture.

"13To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints." Thess 3:13

See also: (Acts 1:9-11; Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:27-31; 25:31-46; Revelation 19:11-21; Zechariah 14:4-21)

Miriam, to understand the rapture, you also need to understand the ancient wedding tradition of the Jews.

1. We are the "bride" of Christ.
2. He is the "bridegroom"
3. The marriage supper of the Lamb happens during the Tribulation on Earth. (Revelation 19:7-10)

Jewish wedding ceremony and the rapture


"Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain." (Isaiah 26:20)



[edit on 30-8-2008 by NOTurTypical]

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Oldtimer2
I was always told that when a religion strays from scripture it is considered a cult

99.9% of christiandom is a cult?

Close, but you missed a tenth of a percentile!
100% of Christianity is a cult.
100% of Islam is a cult.
So yes, sure JW is a cult as well.

The insinuation of shame associated with the word 'cult' is really just a tool for self justification/affirmation of the proclaimer's own views.
All religions are cults, it's just some are bigger than others.
They are all 'God Loves Me Best' clubs.

Thank God I'm Atheist

reply to post by Tattoo1377


"God loves me best clubs"?

I was taught God loved the world.

"For God so loved the WORLD He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

John 3:16

reply to post by miriam


For someone who denies they are a JW you do a fair job of imitating one. You recommend their "translation" (that no-one but them accepts as anything but a deliberate perversion of the Bible), and you defend their doctrines to the hilt. Is it that you are ashamed to be associated with them for some reason or that you wished to hide that you are among their ranks until it became undeniable?

There are 1,001 reasons for Christ's true disciples to denounce the Watchtower organization. Not least the fact that they have published dozens and dozens of ignominious false prophecies, listed here, for example:

www.geocities.com...

The introductory note is spot on:

Jehovah's Witness leaders for over 100 years have claimed to be God's only living "prophet" on the face of the earth. However, if one looks at their record, the documented evidence proves they are what Jesus described as "false prophets"! Most Jehovah's Witneses have no clue about the true history of their organization. Remember what Jesus said: "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many." (Mat 24:11)

The reason they claim to have a monopoly on the truth is that they need to instill fear in those who have become entrapped by their false doctrines, in case Watchtower false prophecies, for example, ever threaten to open their eyes.

One of the saddest features of this organization is that it captures people like you, Miriam, who are fervent, well-meaning truth-seekers.

reply to post by pause4thought

Weren't we instructed that if a "prophet" was wrong even 1 time that we could be assured their prophecy didn't come from God?

In the scriptures, God gives us a guide line for knowing whether a prophet is from Him or from the being, Lucifer. God is all knowing, supreme, and in complete control of everything. Therefore, He cannot be wrong about anything He tells His prophets and they cannot be wrong. God, also, will not and cannot lie and would never give His prophets incorrect information. Because of all of this, God's standard for His prophets is that they cannot be wrong even once.

False Prophets

"God loves me best clubs"?

I was taught God loved the world.

"For God so loved the WORLD He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

John 3:16

Key word- 'Taught'

You were taught God loved the world.
Heck, I was taught Santa Clause loves all the children, oh but there IS that pesky naughty and nice list isn't there

Anyway, thanks for the reply, but no thanks.
I'll have an order of 'Rational Discussion' with a side of 'Conciousness' , hold the scripture~

reply to post by Tattoo1377
Clever.

I was "taught" by the Word of God. The Holy Bible. The authorized 1611 version of King James. That is who "taught" me. If you noticed I'm not a member of ANY church.

Interesting that you claim to be so smart, yet you also claim there is no God.

You would have to be omniscient yourself to know for sure that God didn't exist anywhere in the vast universe, or in any dimension known or unknown.

Anyone who claims to be an atheist is actually agnostic, well, unless of course a man has been everywhere in the universe.

"Atheists" are the least logical people on the face of the Earth. The most a man could claim is: "To the best of my knowledge God doesn't exist."

That is Agnosticism.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I was "taught" by the Word of God. The Holy Bible. The authorized 1611 version of King James. That is who "taught" me. If you noticed I'm not a member of ANY church.

That's great! I'm happy for you.
I'm learning something here.. god revealed to you the version translated in 1611 is the one with the truth, and this book taught you to not associate with any church, among many, many, other things. Fantastic!

Interesting that you claim to be so smart, yet you also claim there is no God.

That's a delusional statement, and it's only 50% correct. Can you quote the text where I claim to be so smart?

"Atheists" are the least logical people on the face of the Earth. The most a man could claim is: "To the best of my knowledge God doesn't exist."

Ha-Ha!! This one made me laugh, thanks
I could toss the same rock back at you, by saying theists are delusional, and the burden of proof is on them, not on atheists..
But this is the same tired debate that everyone (except for crusaders and martyrs) are sick of hearing and reading, let's please not continue this.

In the spirit of steering this thread back on topic, in my opinion there really isn't much difference between JW, Islam, Christianity. All of them show aggression to those who are different in some shape or fashion.
JW knock on your door at 8 in the morning on Saturday, Islam hangs gays, imprisons rape victims, and the Christians throw scripture at you by the truckload.
So my point is this- All organised theistic movements can be classified as cults, because they all share the same traits. Is this an insult to them?
Nah.. It shouldn't matter what anyone believes, only the actions they make based on those beliefs.

Peace

reply to post by Tattoo1377


Umm, theists only need 'evidence' to believe in God. We don't need proof for that belief, if we had empirical "proof", then we wouldn't need to "believe" now would we??

On the other hand, for someone to claim "there is NO God", that person would need to have omniscient knowledge of the universe.

You only need evidence of God to believe in Him, however, one needs omniscient knowledge of the universe to claim "God doesn't exist".

The most logical position a person can have is "to the best of my knowledge God doesn't exist", well, unless of course that person wants to claim to be omniscient, knowing everything about the universe.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You only need evidence of God to believe in Him, however, one needs omniscient knowledge of the universe to claim "God doesn't exist".

Wrong.
Atheists need only evidence as well for the non-existance of god (which there is no shortage of).
And for you to convince me otherwise, you will need proof... something you lack.

reply to post by pause4thought

For someone who denies they are a JW you do a fair job of imitating one. You recommend their "translation" (that no-one but them accepts as anything but a deliberate perversion of the Bible), and you defend their doctrines to the hilt. Is it that you are ashamed to be associated with them for some reason or that you wished to hide that you are among their ranks until it became undeniable?

You would know the answer to that if you had read some of her earlier posts on other threads.
She had some people study with her and saw how what they were saying seemed to be more consistent with the Bible than what was being handed out by the Catholic Church.
I do not think it would be a good idea to judge her unless you live where she does, in the middle of a statue worshiping part of Spain.

[edit on 30-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by pause4thought
For someone who denies they are a JW you do a fair job of imitating one. You recommend their "translation" (that no-one but them accepts as anything but a deliberate perversion of the Bible), and you defend their doctrines to the hilt. Is it that you are ashamed to be associated with them for some reason or that you wished to hide that you are among their ranks until it became undeniable?

i am a homosexual. and the watchtower organization would be biblically correct to turn down my membership.

and while i dont have sex, my conscience doesnt allow me to take the steps nessesary to become baptized.

my only option (in my opinion, i could be wrong) is to trust in gods mercy.

Originally posted by Tattoo1377
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You only need evidence of God to believe in Him, however, one needs omniscient knowledge of the universe to claim "God doesn't exist".

Wrong.
Atheists need only evidence as well for the non-existance of god (which there is no shortage of).
And for you to convince me otherwise, you will need proof... something you lack.

Ironically you lack evidential proof to convince me as well, so i guess our convo is over.

Thanks for your contribution!

Aren't all religions cults? They all have a leader whether hes here or not. GOD / Jesus / Mohammed / even the devil.. etc. When we think of cults tho we think of heavens gate ufo types... because of course the media dont want us to think established religions are merely a globalised cult. With the whackiest ideas that make CRAZY heavens gate people seem more normal.. (joke) but thats not the point.

Some cults are just more commercial than others, with Christianity being the biggest commercial cult.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) -

cult


1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.
–adjective
9. of or pertaining to a cult.
10. of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees: a cult movie.

Another point .. cult is short for 'culture'.. now it has its weird n whacky meaning we have to deal with it as is.. religions are still cults.



[edit on 31-8-2008 by True-Light]

Point noted, from now on I'll refer to them as "false doctrine practitioners and followers of false prophets".

"Cult" was shorter, but I believe in being precise. Star for your post.

reply to post by miriam0566


Hey miriam, Jehovah does not judge people for what we may feel. You can not help your tendancies and you can not help the way you feel. Every Jehovah's witness has feelings and thoughts that are wrong and disqualify them from deserving of life. Thankfully though, Jehovah looks past that and judges what we do. If we try our best to serve him as we know he wants us to, then we will be acceptable to him.
I have a feeling you will make the right choice and do what you know to be right. We really do not have long to go in this system now.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Look out the translation, i always use to say, when somebody knows something by profession, he lies better, this is the case of your 'lead' translators, now nobody can say a translation is good enough or not, you compare it to its original documents based on, and see the truth,

Mos interestingly, if they were so 'lead' translation team why did they hide many words and mistranlate those to create doctrines??!!

Definitely a religion.

My parents were JW's so I've had my fair share of experience with that, went to their church (called a kingdom hall) all the time when I was a kid and growing up.

My ex-wife was a Catholic (Italian) so I've had my fair share of experience with that too, went to her church all the time with her.


My current girlfriend is a presbyterian christian and I go with her to that church as well now too.


To be quite honest with you, if any of the above religions are "cults", it's definitely the Catholic one. They do some really freaky stuff in their church that's really surreal.


The only real difference between my experience at the JW's kingdom hall and the presbyterian church is that the JW's dress nicely, and the presbyterians dress in blue jeans. But the way they worship, conduct their ceremonies, etc, etc, is very much the same.




Any way if anyone wants an unbiased answer on what the JW's really do, just ask me, I'm open to questions. I went there for 14 years with my parents until I decided I'm an athiest and religions aren't my thing. I can already see people spouting off so many lies and innaccuracies in this thread saying that JW's do things that they don't actually do.