why does america the most open society in the world never get the benifit of the doubt?

I have said this in another thread and I will say it again here. All these other countries are so quick to bash us but when they need something we are the first they call. Especially our so called allies. If I had my way our country would not Heed there calls the next time around.

reply to post by flice


our economy is in great shape, the envy of the world in fact! thx for asking! our economy props up all the other large economies of the world who have based their economies on exports to us! thats a very dangerous position for them don't you think! because if we were to close our wallets, your economies would crumble where as our economy is much more self sufficient !

Originally posted by rockets red glare
our economy is in great shape, the envy of the world in fact! thx for asking! our economy props up all the other large economies of the world who have based their economies on exports to us! thats a very dangerous position for them don't you think! because if we were to close our wallets, your economies would crumble where as our economy is much more self sufficient !

No, it isn't. In fact, it's about as self sufficient as a paraplegic womble.

Your manufacturing base has been stripped and your economy is a service economy. You import almost all of your goods, even a large amount of basic resources are imported, because it's cheaper than hiring Americans.

Should the dollar be dropped as the Oil trading currency, there is nothing of value to back it up then. You export minimal amounts compared to what you import. Your import prices would skyrocket, for you, as the dollar would lose purchasing power.

yes, the world economy does, to an extent, rely on America, but it is by no means dependent on it, as the EU is equally as important in world trade.

The EU does almost as much trade with China as you guys do.

7 million Americans owe their jobs directly to the EU, as a result of trans-Atlantic trade.

There is currently more EU trade going to America than vice versa. You guys run a trade deficit to the tune of 15 Billion Euro's annually. Thats a drop in the ocean compared to the deficit your running against China, mind you.

And no, I'm not some "left-wing commie liberal marxist terrorist sympathiser", or whatever lable you want to try and pin on me.

I'd like to think politics is a little more complex than a simple Left-Right black and white image you guys love so much over there.

I don't hate America, or Americans.

I think Bush is a moron, but no more moronic than my own "leaders".

I just like people to know the truth, rather than some fictitious "patriotic" drivel that gets bandied around about how great the USA is compared to the world, when in reality, it is quite far down the table when it comes to things as standard of living, freedoms, political choice and general awareness of the world around them.

reply to post by rockets red glare


Do you know how your economy is financed?
The US Economy financed by debt and extreme speculation.
And you call this a self sustain economy.....

Kacou.

reply to post by stumason


you have more than made my point. we have trade defs whith nearly everyone we buy what others sell. and support our own economy on top of that. we one based our economy on exports as well. not a good position to be in!

reply to post by Becker44


Patriotism is a fight for something that only exists while you're alive. That makes it very dangerous as it solely comes from an egotistical point of view. Great so you fight for your fellow Americans?
How about fighting for the common world we live in?
How about fighting against those who take waaay more than they need (rightees)?

reply to post by flice


Hey Flice,

I'm a little disappointed you chose to only discuss a certain aspect of my post. I'm sure all people are responsible for over-doing it a bit with mother earth. To claim it's just a "righty" thing is a little unfair don't you think.

Your "patriotic" comment was interesting. A patriotic American as you stated does stand and fight for his fellow American unconditionally. That's a little different then some of the patriotism we are seeing around the world. An example may be a patriotic suni or shia. They are patriotic to their respective causes and beliefs however they kill their fellow countrymen. Silly isn't it?

Perhaps you could enlighten me by telling me your personal choice to lead the world or are you in the free-for-all camp?

Thanks,

Becker

reply to post by rockets red glare


My question is, where do you get that the United States is the most open country in the world? Let me give you some examples.

There was a huge moral uproar over Janet Jackson's breast being exposed on television. "What if my child would have seen that! It'd ruin his life!" In other "civilized countries" they are not purtianical goodie two-shoes. News casters are completely naked at times. Full body, uncensored nudity is accepted in public ads for strip clubs, right on the streets. Anyone could see all the girl parts. But there is no big deal. Children are not taught sex is bad, or to be afraid of the evil nipple.

How about drinking? In the United States, we can have young men and women of 18 go off to war to kill and be killed. But they can't even drink? In many countries, children are introduced to it at a young age. Wine with dinner. Buying beer when you're 11. They learn about it, learn how to handle it, and are not afraid to abuse it.

Naughty words. This is a big one. If someone says the n word, the s word, the f word, there is an uproar. "What if my child heard such foul language!" Again, the puritan values of the United States shine.

Don Imus was fired for hurting feelings. He was fired for saying something he was hired to say. This society is looking less free and open.

How about the kid who got suspended for drawing a picture of a squirt gun? No no no, that's not right.

Or the girl who got detention for hugging friends?

Or the guy who wore the arabic "We shall not be silent" t-shirt?

How bout we take a squint at religion. In many countries, the religion held by politicians is unknown. In the United States, home of the free, this becomes a controversy that can keep someone out of office.

We are not the most free country in the world. Sorry. People who say those things have generally never left the country.

As far as why other nations don't just trust us, who would? We have the most weapons. Weapons do not equal right. The founding fathers of this country based our constitution on the idea that authority should ALWAYS be questioned.

It is only lately that people have this idea that if you question the officials, you're not patriotic. This country was founded on the notion that questioning authority is the ultimate patriotism.

The United States is generally disliked throughout most of the world. For a number of reasons.

#1 We get involved in international affairs without being asked to be involved.

#2 We are percieved as a bunch of trigger-happy cowboys.(I was surprised to learn this from my European friends)

#3 We regularly tell everyone that WE ARE THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD

#4 We generally do not develop a good understanding of the culture of countries we are dealing with. Often leading to trouble. ie, look at Iraq. How many lives were lost, how many people were endangered, because we didn't realized to sunni and the shii'a did not like each other. There were definately smarter ways to go about it.

#5 The general ignorance Americans have about other cultures

We could go on, and on, but hopefully, you get the idea.

The United States used to be well thought of. Rebuilding nations after we destroyed them in war, helping whenever there was a disaster, offering support, and supplies, etc. However, our reputation has been soured quite a bit thanks to those in office.

Our country was founded on the concept of questioning government. Just assuming they know what they're doing isn't enough. Iraq, Katrina, among others, are very public disasters, that we are still paying for, in billions of wasted dollars, and so much spilled blood.

To assume we are the most open, and that we should be trusted, just because we got the bombs, and we wave the ol' stars and stripes goes against everything this country was based upon. To just assume things without knowledge is ignorant, and this goes against everything ATS was based upon.

Those in power must always be questioned, and if they get out of hand, they shouldbe yanked out of office. However, to speak as such anymore could be considered treasonous. How misguided the "most open country" has become.

Originally posted by stumason
At least in Europe we have an education system that enables us to be able to spell, punctuate and form coherent sentences and arguments.....

At least Americans believe in dental hygiene. You Brits look like you eat corn through a picket fence.

Originally posted by Casino2112
At least Americans believe in dental hygiene. You Brits look like you eat corn through a picket fence.

Ah, a stereotype.

At least my observation was based on the shocking display of bad spelling and grammar by the OP.

reply to post by TheGreySwordsman


who are you to push your morality on others. If a parent wants to raise there children a certain way who you you to deside that they must be exposed to vulgarity and smut. or force sex education on them? Your liberal sex ed. hasn't helped much, more young girls are preg. desease among sexually transmitted desease is rampant in your liberal shingra la. Imus was not fired because what he said was so offensive, it was becuse who it offended! Bleeding heart multi cultural liberal who claim tolerance but, never practice it. The girl who was expelled from school for hugging, once again liberal socialists who control the schools system you know those people. you should they are the ones you vote for! not saying offensive words well there it is again liberal socialist multiculture thought police. If you don't like this crap maybe you should stop putting the very people who do it in positions of power!

The openness of your society has nothing to do with the question

It is the power of your country, not the openness of its society, that is at issue here.

Americans have what many who live in less fortunate parts of the world would term an open society*. This is good for them, and it shows. Living as they do under a benign dispensation, they are, as they can afford to be, decent and well-intentioned people on the whole. They expect their leaders to be decent and well-intentioned too. And on the whole (bar the occasional scandal) they are not disappointed. The behaviour of their leaders and their government towards themselves is, on the whole, benevolent, decent and well-intentioned.**

But sensible Americans understand that, benign as their government is towards them, it is not and cannot be equally benign in its foreign policy.

No country is. No country can afford to be.


A question of interests

Countries have interests, both economic and security-related. The bigger and more powerful a country, the more interest it has in the affairs of the world. It has more to gain and more to lose.

Sometimes the interests of one country clash with those of another. When this happens, the governments of the respective countries have an obligation to put their country's interests before those of the opposition. More often than not these clashes of interest are settled by negotiations in which each country's representative fights her corner as hard as possible. Fair play is not expected. Sometimes these negotiations break down and there is war. In war, a government's duty is to secure victory, or at any rate the best among available outcomes, for its people.

The USA is the world's most powerful country. Inevitably its interests are global. It is in constant political and economic engagement with every other country in the world. Since it is so powerful and its interests so ubiquitous, every other country, and very often their individual citizens, constantly feel its influence and pressure, exerted by the American government in the interest - naturally and quite rightly - of America. The effects of this influence and pressure on the citizens of other countries are often, however, quite nasty.

Many of those who cry out against America have previously been at the sharp end of its foreign policy through no fault of their own and have genuine grievances. If they are suspicious of American motives, it is because they have so often found American actions to be to their detriment.


America the Unloved

There is nothing to be done about this as long as the United States of America remains the dominant power in the world. If it suddenly started being nice to everyone, turning the other cheek and so forth, or worse still being scrupulously fair and treating everyone alike, it would soon forfeit its dominance. The (conservative) historian Bernard Lewis calls evenhandedness 'a manifestly suicidal policy for any government, American or other, to pursue.' He underlines the point with a quote from the writings of an Arab moralist, Ibn Hazm, which I have just adopted as my signature: see below.

America is not the ruler of the world. Neither is it an international policeman or guardian of the world's morals. It has no responsibility - except to the degree that it is the cause of them - to solve all the world's problems. There are those, both within and outside America, who believe it should take up one or another of these roles, but their aspirations are doomed to disappointment. America has neither the mandate nor the capability to do any of these things. Neither can it isolate itself and let the world get on with its business. It is just one country among many - admittedly the biggest and the strongest, but then again someone has to be - advancing and protecting its interests in every corner of the globe, and upsetting people all over the place in the process.

And this exactly as it should be, neither should any friend of America wish that things were any different.

__________________________________________________________________
*I know there are many ATS members - mainly American - who would disagree, but I think we may consider them somewhat idealistic in their conception of what an open society is supposed to be.

**Give a take a few cruel and unusual punishments, Cold War CIA and military experiments and that enduring American shame, the death penalty.

[edit on 20-11-2007 by Astyanax]

reply to post by Astyanax


that was a very good post. best answer to my question yet!!!

Because we're not the only democracy in the world?

When we first began, we were unique, but now there are plenty of other democracies. Canada and all of Europe save Belarus are free democracies.

Japan is a democracy, as is most of Latin America, and plenty more.

reply to post by Becker44


Becker44 you hit the nail on the head exactly with your post.

Someone said that they're so tired of hearing about America's past good deeds, etc., but what other country is out there doing anything positive in the world for other countries?

Also, this topic is not about whether America is heaven on earth. No, it's a comparison by degree. Which country has the best opportunity and ability to lead, because as you said, someone always has to take the lead or nothing gets done.

Last, RRG, if you are really from the U.S., you're are making our education system look really bad.

reply to post by Astyanax


A beautiful post.

One I will shorten to: America is damned if they do and damned if they don't. So, what should the U.S. do with it's power and influence, waste it doing nothing that might benefit other places in the world, or try (and sometimes fail)?

I wonder what all the U.S.-haters would do if given similar choices and opportunities as either a leader of a country or large organization, or even in their personal lives. Would they just sit back and do nothing, or try to make a positive difference knowing that they 'll probably fail some of the time?

Hark! I do believe I hear the voice of Authority!

Originally posted by Becker44
In all aspects of our lives their must be leadership and accountability... The U.S. is the leader and does impose it's will, morals, and beliefs upon others.

May I ask you who voted the United States the leader of the world? I've been old enough to vote since 1976 and I don't recall ever having cast a ballot in that election.

As for 'accountability' - who, precisely, would you imagine America was accountable to in its capacity as 'leader of the world'? The American people? Don't the rest of us get a say?

If not the US then what country would your attackers on this thread propose to lead the world?

Nobody leads the world. Nobody ever has and nobody (let us hope) ever will. Throwing your weight about in the pursuit of your interests (see my previous post) is quite another thing from leadership.

I guess they want a free for all.

Whether 'they' want it or not, it's what they've got. Hadn't you noticed?

When tough times hit and you have a natural disaster, need a technological advance, need guidance on governance, need to stave off an enemy, need food to feed you people, need resources, need , need , need. Don't call us cause' we're too evil and bad for your pallet.

You talk as if America were the benefactor of the world. The facts are very different.

America is the notoriously the stingiest of donor nations and is well known for attaching numerous and selfish conditions to whatever paltry assistance it does provide. This is well documented, not least by the American government: if you want to look at the evidence, check out this post on a now (I hope) defunct ATS thread.

As for 'staving off an enemy', I think America is rather better known for helping oppressive governments cling to power - formerly in Southeast Asia, presently in the Middle East, and in plenty of other places too. Perhaps you mean the good ole Second World War? Or rushing to the rescue of Brave Little Kuwait and the Saudi oilfields beyond? Never since Woodrow Wilson's famous 'error' has America got itself involved in a war that did not see its own interests threatened in some way. Neither (see, again, my previous post) should it have.

I truly wish we could try this for a year to shut these morons up.

I suppose that's what you call leading by example.

[edit on 20-11-2007 by Astyanax]

I'd usually say something, but i'm sick of being slapped with that tired old 'anti-american' tag.

reply to post by centurion1211


Centurion,

Terrific summary of an elegant post! Your question will probably not receive an intelectual response. Many America haters must want a free for all out there. Let Iran get a nuke or two. They seem like a nice regime, just misunderstood.

I'm giving you a star and a hearty smack on the head cause I like ya!

Becker

Originally posted by rockets red glare
One thing I am certain of WITHOUT AMERICA IN IT, THE WORLD WOULD NOT BE A BETTER PLACE!!

[edit on 20-11-2007 by rockets red glare]

[edit on 20-11-2007 by rockets red glare]

People like you frighten me.....