I have a very serious question.

God created everything right? which means God created me, and he created me the way I am.

God created all of us the way we are. Our personalities, our opinions, our abilities, our emotions... etc...etc...etc....

The bible says you must believe, you must have faith to be saved, to enter the kingdom of heaven and not spend a lifetime in damnation.

As many others in this world, i am the type of person who much have evidence. physical, without a doubt, hard proof evidence of something before I can completely believe.

So, my question is this. If God made me the way I am. And I am the type that needs evidence. Why is that a problem??

Doesn't that seem kind of contradicing? Hyporcritical?

Yep, totally contradictory which is one of the many reasons why I don't believe in that. It's best to not live under the rules of something that can't be proven. Live by what you see, what you know and explore what you don't know. That way, you will be able to make the most of life and what is offered to you in this existence. To me.. that is more fulfilling than doing as I'm told until i die when i 'might' go to heaven.

[edit on 19-11-2007 by fiftyfifty]

reply to post by Cker11


It's man's greatest question followed closely by "Will the Patriots go undefeated?"



The religious folk here on ATS should be by shortly. They're going to tell you about a very important exclusion in your original post.

My bet is they'll say your absolutley correct in all your points concerning God creating you a certain way. Then just as they build you up they'll lay down the hammer known as "FAITH".

You see "faith" is the word they like to use to remove themselves from any logical discussion concerning, creation, existense, Noahs' Ark and so on.

So in my opinion, unless you take that major leap into the unknown (faith) your question may never be answered.

Becker

My response to this is:

Watch these videos, they have a very real and interesting take on your question. I just purchased a book called "The Gods of Eden" which goes into further detail in regards as to what Mr. Maxwell discusses.

www.youtube.com...

then just continue with the other vids.

Hope this dices your brain a little.

Originally posted by Becker44
You see "faith" is the word they like to use to remove themselves from any logical discussion concerning, creation, existense, Noahs' Ark and so on.

Well, you are actually right on that; and is it really any surprise? Faith is the entire basis of religion. It is faith that makes it a religion to most and it is faith that gives them something to believe in. That is the fallacy with Christianity that most come up against.

Some claim that they need physical hard proof in order to believe, but the basis of it is to be able to believe "without" any hard physical evidence.

And faith is not a word used to distance people from having logical discussions as you claim. As I've said, faith is not an excuse, it is the basis of everything. Outside of the far Christian right, you won't have trouble finding logical arguments with most Christians.

Just because they can accept what they believe on faith alone, and not have to seek hard evidence, does not make them delusional or naive.

You have freewill. God (I don't believe in God btw) may have created you, but yourself, parents, friends, and institutions made you who you are.

Originally posted by Raoul Duke
You have freewill. God (I don't believe in God btw) may have created you, but yourself, parents, friends, and institutions made you who you are.

I can accept that. But, God know's everything. So apparently he know's I would be the person I would be. So for the people that turn out like me, needed evidence, proof, something. Why can't he give us something to feed on???

Which brings up another point. If God know's everthing, then he already know's who is going to hell and who isn't. So what the heck is the point??

It's all just stupid to me, none of it makes any since what so ever!!

Yeah the whole 'god' thing is rather old hat in my opinion...

It's a seriously outdated concept that causes nothing but trouble world wide...

myself I'd rather stick to common sense, morality and learning than placing all my eggs in one basket (the basket labelled faith).

A good question though, if there 'is' a god, then why would he create us as we are, then allow us to mess up big time and then punish us with 'hell' etc...

That would be like me rearing a kitten from birth and then punishing it for not acting like a puppy....

Originally posted by Cker11

I can accept that. But, God know's everything. So apparently he know's I would be the person I would be. So for the people that turn out like me, needed evidence, proof, something. Why can't he give us something to feed on???

God has foresight of events too. That is actually interesting. I've never thought of God in this sense, so I'm kinda stumped to tell you the truth (I did believe in God when I was younger).

Which brings up another point. If God know's everthing, then he already know's who is going to hell and who isn't. So what the heck is the point??

See, this is where you make your own claim problematic. It's like the people who say even if we could time travel we'd only know probable futures. Maybe that is all God knows.

It's all just stupid to me, none of it makes any since what so ever!!

Very speculative indeed, but not a bad thing to consider.



[edit on 19-11-2007 by Raoul Duke]

god didnt make you, specifically

god created this universe, the one that we all live in, the one that allows for the existence of creatures, such as yourself to exist in.

all the mechanics that produce everything we know were created many billions of years ago, since then everything has progressed on its own

the concept of blind faith is a myth, there is plenty of evidence for intentional creation, thus a creator. a good place to start is the study of math and science. specifically chaos theory and physics.

want to find out what materials and tools god used to create everything?

its all in there, from the size of the universe to the smallest sub atomic particle and everything in between.

remember kids, the bible is NOT meant to be a scientific text. the wisdom in it is still relevant, but was written for its contemporary audience. no one back then would comprehend what dna is or dinosaurs are, capice?

Originally posted by Becker44
The religious folk here on ATS should be by shortly. They're going to tell you about a very important exclusion in your original post.

Of course we will!

My bet is they'll say your absolutley correct in all your points concerning God creating you a certain way. Then just as they build you up they'll lay down the hammer known as "FAITH".

In part, yes.

You see "faith" is the word they like to use to remove themselves from any logical discussion concerning, creation, existense, Noahs' Ark and so on.

So in my opinion, unless you take that major leap into the unknown (faith) your question may never be answered.

Becker

You only get faith by hearing the word of God (a modern translation would be understanding), and that is not up to the believer or non-believer. It is entirely free and there it is not up to myself nor the OP if we have faith or not. We are all just pawns in the game.

Now, I am sure another religious folk will come along and deny the truth and place the blame of having faith or not in the OP's lap, but the truth is this whole game is entirely in God's hands. There is nothing wrong with being an athiest - it is beneficial that some be athiest.

Originally posted by Cker11

Originally posted by Raoul Duke
You have freewill. God (I don't believe in God btw) may have created you, but yourself, parents, friends, and institutions made you who you are.

I can accept that. But, God know's everything. So apparently he know's I would be the person I would be. So for the people that turn out like me, needed evidence, proof, something. Why can't he give us something to feed on???

Which brings up another point. If God know's everthing, then he already know's who is going to hell and who isn't. So what the heck is the point??

It's all just stupid to me, none of it makes any since what so ever!!

I think your looking at things the wrong way. First I would say your parent created you and God allowed it happen. Then as some else pointed out you have free will to has you please with you're life you were granted.

As far as God already knowing who's going up or down. Well, he does know. You're not proving anything to him, you are proving it to yourself. So then the next question is why allow all this? Well, how boring would life be if everything was perfect, or how would you like a life without free will? People often complain about how hard life is, yet most people would fight tooth and nail for there life. Life has it's problems like when someone you love dies, but over all it great to be alive. I think God did a fine job, and I don't understand all his ways, but I'm not complaining.

Originally posted by Cker11

Originally posted by Raoul Duke
You have freewill. God (I don't believe in God btw) may have created you, but yourself, parents, friends, and institutions made you who you are.

I can accept that. But, God know's everything. So apparently he know's I would be the person I would be. So for the people that turn out like me, needed evidence, proof, something. Why can't he give us something to feed on???

Which brings up another point. If God know's everthing, then he already know's who is going to hell and who isn't. So what the heck is the point??

It's all just stupid to me, none of it makes any since what so ever!!

This is one point atheists argue with us and most Christians do not logically think out which invalidates God and salvation. You cannot say God made everyone the way they are, and still say we have free will, for if God made a murderer and the saint alike and the one is going to kill the other, then the other does not have free will to be allowed to live.

Christians stumble on this because they are lukewarm in their love for their fellow man. They want to hang on to the hell doctrine because they secretly harbor a belief that they are good, yet still there are some who sin and deserve punishment. If they had a perfect love, then they would see that the only logical explanation for hell in the Bible is a spiritual realm that exists now and manifests on earth, which is why there is duality. They deny destiny and actually want free will, which also condemns them.

If you cannot know if you will die in the next hour with 100% certainty, then you do not have free-will.

Originally posted by ben91069
There is nothing wrong with being an athiest - it is beneficial that some be athiest.

Hi Ben,

Just for the sake of clarification, if I had to label myself I would choose agnostic far before athiest. I really want there to be a God I just can't get the faith part down.

I mean heck, check out my signature. Would an athiest put that there?

Becker



[edit on 19-11-2007 by Becker44]

reply to post by Cker11


answer: the next time someone of any religion, whether it be christian, muslim, jew, or pagan, tries to convert you or challenges your lack of belief simply tell them "god made me an unbeliever, who are you to challenge god's wisdom?"

I don't even know what people are talking about when they say "God." How can anyone have a reasonable debate or discussion when we can't even define the terms?

God also made us with a mirror, we reflect what we choose to reflect. You are able to have faith, God wants that of you. Jesus is the truth.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Cker11

 

answer: the next time someone of any religion, whether it be christian, muslim, jew, or pagan, tries to convert you or challenges your lack of belief simply tell them "god made me an unbeliever, who are you to challenge god's wisdom?"

God doesn't do the walking, we must travel down the paths we choose. The murderer is not made so, but chooses to become so.

Originally posted by depth om
God also made us with a mirror, we reflect what we choose to reflect. You are able to have faith, God wants that of you. Jesus is the truth.

Ok, here lies yet another problem. God made us in his own image, that's what they all say. So, if this is the case, then we not only take on the "appearance" of God, but his trates, his emotions.. etc..etc.. So since i'm an unbeliever, doesn't that mean God has questionable faith also?? It would only make since. Right??

How can we be damned by having all the trates of our maker???

And about making the choice to have faith or not. I don't choose not to believe, I just don't choose TO believe without something substantual that nobody has been able to produce in thousands of years. I don't choose to murder, I do choose to live the best life I can and be the best person I can. Not based off my beliefs, but based on how I want to be as a human being.

and one other thing. It's no secret that the bible was translated from this to that to this, from language to language. Who is to say someone didn't translate the word, and the meaning, of faith all together??

I could be the best person that ever lived. And becuase I don't believe in "THAT" way.. I'm damned..

It's just not right.

I'm in no way saying it's not true, please don't get me wrong. I AM NOT ATHIEST. I would also put myself in the Agnostic catagory.