Byrd, Re: Your Post On SS#'s...

The same idea crossed my mind the first time I read revelations. If you don't have an SS# you can't:

Go to post-secondary;
Get a job;
Get bank accounts or loans;
Get health insurance;
Get a licence.

You know what the funny thing is? I've mentioned this to so many christians, pointing out the parallels in Rev, and they are absolutely, 100% convinced that this is not the way it's supposed to happen...

"No...noooo... my dear boy. God is going to call all of us Christians into the clouds. All the Muslims and wiccans (hehe) will stay behind for the rapture - that is, when the big red dragon satan comes down to earth with his antichrist who forces everyone to wear the mark of the beast, '666', in their forehead of their right hand...."

Just imagine, "he causeth all, great and small, free and bond to recieve the mark..." Keyword 'all'. I don't see 'christians float away first' or 'everyone but christians gets the mark'.

Dumb-ass fundamentalists make all Christians look bad through their stupidity; then the the RC's are getting caught with their trousers down. This surely is the end. Christ is gonna be mighty perturbed with all these ding dongs professing faith in Him.

Good on you for acknowledging this, Byrd. We'll make a (reasonable, respectable, really groovy) Christian of you yet!

Now I'm really going to bed. (Snort...)

-�avonarola

Originally posted by Savonarola
Good on you for acknowledging this, Byrd. We'll make a (reasonable, respectable, really groovy) Christian of you yet!

I highly doubt that...

Savonarola who exactly are the real Christian which will be saved by God? Is it the Catholics or perhaps the Protestants? Maybe it�s the Jehovah�s Witnesses or even the Pilgrims. Whoever it is, none of these groups seem to agree (and further more do any other sects). All of them insist one deny the other and accept what they accept as valid. Each one presents the same issue, if you deny there sect as valid never-ending hell is a part of your future.

Personally I feel the Toltec faith (it does accept Christ as valid) is the way to go. The fact is that Thomas Crown does not agree with me. And I fear that one day is soul will end up in everlasting torment, just like yours Savonarola. Be clear on one thing what is presented in this paragraph was meant as a joke. But the rest of the text is not.

What are your thoughts?


[Edited on 10-12-2002 by Toltec]

A true Christian realizes he is incomplete without the God that created him. He worships God, not denomination, he follows Christ's and the prophet's advice over the advice of men. He folows the Law (ten commandments) to the absolute best of his ability and prays for forgiveness when he breaks even the least of these. He serves his fellow men as he would serve God, he is generous with his resources and time to the poor and needy - understanding that their cries are heard by our Lord, serving them is like serving the lord.

The true christian knows humility and is humble in his dealings with both God and men. He prays to commune with God and to ask for those things that will help him serve God better - he does not beg for a new car or to win the lottery. His rewards for faith and service are not seen of men. Faith is increased (which necessetates less fear of death), wisdom is increased (less errors are made), and one gains a closer relationship with the best friend one could ever wish for, Christ, who is the one that introduced you to His Father.

A Christian will understand that Christ is not gleeful in character (as the charismatics would have you believe) but is sorrowful because of the fallen state of man. He will understand that evil exists for a purpose that may be beyond mortal comprehension - but that one must put one's faith in God that He will set things right. One must also right what wrongs he can on earth.

A Christian doesn't believe in "Personal Power" or such nonsense. All power comes from God. Those who are awarded power, and abuse it, will pay the price at the Judgement.

A Christian's loyalty is to God. He will never kill another human, break a commandment of his God, for any man or nation. God did not create the Laws only for us to break them, nor has he ever commanded us to break them - I'm gonna get a lot of flack for this one...

Mennonites and seventh day adventists, historically, have the best track record for following God's Laws.

Well, that's a start.

-�

Originally posted by Savonarola
Good on you for acknowledging this, Byrd. We'll make a (reasonable, respectable, really groovy) Christian of you yet!

Well if that isn't yet another reason Freemasonry formed. It doesn't matter if you're christian or Wiccan, as long as it is right, therefore your life is not to believe, but to search.

Sincerely,
no signature

[Edited on 10-12-2002 by FreeMason]

Freemason,

You said, "It doesn't matter if you're christian or Wiccan, as long as it is right, therefore your life is not to believe, but to search."

Although reason is wholly inadequate to make sense of spiritual realities, this would be like saying that God is, at once, a perfect, personal deity(Yahwey, Jevovah) that exists independant of the universe and yet is the force of which the flawed universe is comprised (Tao). He is also the Sun (Ra) and the stag (Cernunnos), etc. Therefore He is at once flawed and perfect, simple and complex.

Please specify. Can God be all things at once? Can he be the God of headhunters and saints alike? Masons and Buddhists?

Logic is a flawed system designed by flawed people to make sense of a flawed universe, and is a woefully inadequate tool when used to make sense of higher realities. But we must try our best.

God Bless

-�-

God is everything, he is not a he or some thing sitting on a throne creating stars, god is organization, purpose, continuation. We are just individuals, when we die, we are reborn, simple and follows the course of nature (though it might not be true, no one can be sure), but as for god, I think Purpose sums it up more than organization and creation. That is all a by-product of the most important thing above all else....purpose.

And where you see a flawed universe, I see only perfection, nothing in this universe is flawed, even the most unstable compounds serve a purpose in governing this vast universe. Even ourselves are a part of this machine, we have the gift of not being the machine though, we can percieve, and learn, and understand.

This is where Fate comes in (remember I mentioned earlier), fate is that order we all feel, but no longer follow, I follow fate, and my life is perfect, but I know many who fight the currents, and nothing you tell them will make them think any thing they do successfully is not of their own free will.

I've thought longer on all this than would seem sensible, these days with science doing all the work. As I say, Science is the How, religion is the Why. But I figured, the correct religion, is the one so simplistic, so boiled down that it HAS to be right in the areas that it covers.

Those simple things are, the universe is pure order, we are individuals, and can never cease to exist, and that none of this was created by accident.

Make any sense?

I think people should just think more about life and existance, than they do, it shouldn't matter if you believe in a Devil or God, just as long as you reflect on everything, at least that way, we are all a bit wiser than before.

Sincerely,
no signature

Heh. Thanks, Sav, but as the others pointed out, I'm very unlikely to convert.

Social security numbers were originally denounced as "the Mark of the Beast" and it's amusing how well accepted they are now. Every newborn gets one, whether or not you apply for one. I've even heard suggestions that the SS# system will evolve into a global ID number.

Since I don't believe in the Biblical version of the end times, I don't buy that it's going to turn into some sort of holocaust... any more than getting SS#s for the US triggered the First Trumpet.

Byrd,

You said you "don't believe in the Biblical version of the end times". I'd like to know if the "biblical version" is perhaps less accurate than another version you can think of or if you simply don't believe that man is not capable of prescience.

It seems probable that if St.John saw our times, he would have to describe the events witnessed according to his personal schema - his world view. In this case, if he were to see apache helicopters, he might describe them in terms he knows:

And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running into battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. REV 9:7-10

They were like and as it were appear many times in Revelations. As far as I'm concerned, these can be re-phrased as "it's kinda like this"..."and was also, kinda like this".

Remember the movie, 'Iceman', where the early-human sees the helicopter hovering over the skylights? If he were to go back in time, how would he relate what he saw to his family? He might refer to it as some kind of 'locust-thing', or 'locust-god even'.

I figure the Mark of the Beast has been misinterpreted for the same reason. Having a basic (by our standards) understanding of math, St. John may have seen the numbers given to individuals by their governments and interpreted it in the only way he could - by making the mark obvious by denoting it as a number and as 666. He could not simply say "watch out for the social security number" as social security, in the form we know and trust (?) didn't exist at that time. It must also be noted that 'beast', more often than not, is used throughout the bible as a reference to a nation or state. The mark (number) is given to men by the government.

Although we have not yet recieved a mark in (our) right hand, or in (our) foreheads REV13:16, we can not buy or sell REV 13:17 without our own, personal SS#. It's just a hop, skip, and a jump away to a chip in our hand...

Also, St. John says, Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast REV 12:18, suggesting that he hopes there will be someone (at that time) who will comprehend what he's talking about. There is also another quote in Matthew, pleading whoso readeth, let him understand MATT 24:15 - suggesting that the author of the book knew the prophetic event described (in this case, the abomination of desolation) might be a hard concept to grasp, and the ones who understand the warning will be the ones with sufficient faculties with which to comprehend them.

I fear I'm not one of the 'understanding' ones, but I am beginning to see a pattern.

Go in Peace,

-�-

Sav, I don't believe in an "end times."

The world is getting better, not worse -- as any student of historical times can tell you. We no longer sell our children into slavery, and practices like cannibalism and rape and torture are being expunged from our society. We have a better understanding of our resources and how to care for them.

It could stand improvement, though.

What do I believe? I believe we'll eventually change into something slightly different from H. Sapiens -- hopefully a species variation with greater intelligence and more social maturity. I believe we'll travel outward from Earth and explore the cosmos. I believe eventually that our sun will die, and hope by that time that my distant descendants are living someplace safe and comfortable and away from Earth.

But I don't believe in Jehovah. And I think the book of Revelations is indeed a vision -- lots of people have them. I've seen lots of explainations and failed prophecies based on people interpreting it. I don't think this vision has any validity... it's just religious ecstacy and he was delighted to prophecize that the Evil Nation of Rome was going to get its just due by Jehovah and so forth.

There's a gazillion prophets out there that people follow and believe, including Hal Lindsey who's predicted the end of the earth at least 4 times since I first became aware of him. I think that John of Revelations is on par with goodole Hal... quite sincere, and possessed of a vision... and wrong.

Byrd,

Are you friggin' looney?

I hate to break it to you, but the slave trade still exists. Girls and women, at this moment, are being bought and sold as prostitutes and for porn in Russia and the former Yugoslavia. Chinese immigrants, who already paid for passage to America, are working (and prostituting) their way to freedom in New York City - not getting paid for it, mind you: doing it because they have no where else to go and no one to turn to. And don't forget about Sudan...

Some google searches you can try:

'chinese slave trade new york'

'yugoslavia slave trade'

"sudan slave trade'

'russian slave trade'

As to rape and torture:

www.suite101.com...

I don't recommend doing searches on this subject because you'll get more porn than valid info...

The U.S. just pulled out of the Kyoto treaty and is upping energy production... where are you getting this "understanding of our resources" and "how to care for them" stuff?

Slavery isn't going anywhere, Byrd, not as long as one human is stronger than another.

-�-

Niether nuts nor blind, Sav. I'm aware it exists today. But it used to be far more common (even the Bible sanctioned it) and was a standard part of the dominant cultures.

It's not any longer, and people are working to end it.

And if you think we're being worse with our resources, you really should have been here during the 1950's and so forth when London had killer smogs, when you could drive into any coal town and find the area black with soot... and so on and so forth. You should have seen America before we got on an anti-litter kick... the side of the roads looked like garbage heaps.

I'm afraid that the world wasn't a pristine garden in the centuries leading up to the 20th century. In fact, in terms of social and political justice, it was a horror.

Yes, there's racism... but I remember a time when people here in the South would have lynched my friend Joe (who's Black) for talking to me.

(g) I didn't say we were perfect. But we're a LOT better than we were in the 1800's or 1700's or 400's or 100 AD.

There is a story Savronela about a British man who lived with is his family in the days of the Black plague. One day while he was at work his son asked permision of his natural mother to go out and play. The Mother said no, to which the young man pouted. After hearing enough of his rant the Mother sent the child to bed with no supper (this probably included a spanking).

That evening during dinner the father asked of his wife why his son was not present with them. She responded that he was acting up and as a reuslt was punished for the evening. Later that night the father went to check on his son. Who informed him that the reason he was being punished, was that he had observed his mother having sexual intercourse with another man.

After conversing with his son he went to the kitchen where his wife was. And without any conversation killed her by cutting her throat. He then took the body and placed in on a pile that was meant for collection (near the front of his home) of those who had died of the illness.

Days passed and the person assigned to collect those that had died from the plauge arrived at the man's home. He had noted that his wife had not died from a disease and enquired as to why she was on the pile. He explained himself and as a result the man informed the husband that he would have to file a report.


Several weeks passed and an officer of the law came to the man's house, he was there to investigate the death of the woman. The father explained his motivation, to which the officer requested that the child be brought to him for questioning. At the time the child was out playing but the father located him and brought him to the person assigned to address this issue. The boy repeated his lie and as a reuslt the case was closed and labeled a legal homicide.

I am not saying this world of today is perfect, or that much needs to be done to make it better. What I am saying is that if this defines the epitome of the legal system in the days of the Black plauge. What far worse event's occured in less developed nations, at that at the time.

Byrd,

Slavery was described in the Bible, but it was never encouraged or even condoned in the bible. There is plenty of advice for how to deal with servants, however, but servents (in these terms) were not anything akin to slaves.

In those times, a servent was guaranteed food, clothing, a roof over his head, and the right to marry. Even if they were not paid money for their work, they were paid in security - most were also paid in money. They were allowed to marry and have children. And a servent was purchased for his service, like you and I are purchased hourly or with salary. Sometimes the money went to the servent, sometimes to his family. And, a servent, as opposed to a slave, could leave whenever they wanted to.

I'm assuming there were good and bad masters (of the house), just like there are good and bad bosses.

If you use those searches I recommended, you will find that literally tens of thousands of russian women and girls are on the market today - they are sold by parents, kidnapped, etc.

You make a critical error in your assumption that the political correctness and morality being pushed in the U.S. is being pushed everywhere... but it's not. And the U.S. itself has a huge child and teen prostetution market. Don't delude yourself.

Toltec,

There is a story about an american football player who found out his wife was sleeping with a waiter... this football player then killed his wife and the waiter... and after mountains of proof were presented everyone in the nation presumed he was guilty of the crime... but the jury found him not guilty.

Can you imagine how a system better than it was in the days of the black plague let someone guilty walk?

Better my arse. There's nothing new under the Sun. And utopia, paradise, is impossible without God. We are too corruptable to make it happen.

Wisdom and Grace

-�-

Sav --

Yes, even our founding fathers said that the Bible condoned slavery:
www.religioustolerance.org...

There's all sorts of stuff about slaves (the Israelites who became slaves to were "bondsmen" because they could only be enslaved for six years.)

Here's a typical passage, though:

Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." (NIV)

That says "slaves." Says it's sanctioned, too.

Here's the Old Testament stuff on slavery (note that your BROTHER can buy you as a slave and instead of being released in six years, you have to serve till the Jubilee (every 50 years).)
www.religioustolerance.org...

And the New Testament. Note that servant=slave. There was no such thing as "a cook who came in to do for you and then left to go back to their own household." www.religioustolerance.org...

Again, I'm aware of the slavery and prostitution issues in America and abroad. I'm also aware it's not as bad as it used to be.

...but this is way off-topic.

To restate the answer to the original post:

Yes, the SS# was seen as the Mark of the Beast. No, it didn't turn out to be that, so people are looking for other Marks.

No, I don't believe that the Revelations end-time scenario will ever play out.

No, I don't believe the world is getting worse... unless you're a right-winger who loved segregation and women staying at home and not being able to work and landed gentry haveing all the legal power and free rein to use public lands as we wish and "freedom of religion" means "freedom to worship in approved sects of the Christian deity only."

If that's your agenda, then yes, by golly the world IS getting worse!

Hehe. I'll mull this over while I'm at work and get back to this post tonight.

-�-

I'm new here, so I hope I'm not intruding, but I'd like to weigh in on this if I may.

The mark will be something that you have a choice in taking. Granted, to not take it will mean death in the physical sense, but to take the mark will mean that you will be doomed to the fate in store for Satan and his angels. You'll know what you are taking when you take it.
Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received[his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Obviously he wants all to take it, but the description of the saints who refuses the mark indicates you have still have freedom of choice - at that time. It'll change after you take the mark, however. A strong delusion will keep you from looking back.

This isn't difficult to understand. I don't know if this is "fundy" believing as I'm not sure as what that is.

As far as who is left behind, if you believe what the Bible says is true, then you know that the only way to the Father is through the Son, (that would indicate who goes and who stays) and that all that calls upon the name of Him (the Son) shall be saved.

Call it what you want, but that's how it is according to the Bible.

Savonarola, in case you haven't noticed, all have fallen short, and chances are Christ is "perturbed" at all of us, even you. As long as we are in these earthly bodies, we are going to trip, stumble and fall. But by being saved, and having the right to call God "Abba, or Father" and He forgiving His children and disciplining us as necessary, it'll be ok.

BTW, what are some of the beliefs of these "Dumb-ass fundamentalists", and are you are Christian also? If so, why do you call your brothersand sisters in the Lord such a name?

Java,

Welcome to AboveTopSecret. I'm relatively new, too.

I severely cut up fundamentalists in this post, so if you are really, really sensitive or feel yourself getting red-faced, you may want to discontinue reading.

I'd first like to point out that Satan's not a moron (like Bush). He would trick humanity into taking the mark, just like he tricked Adam and Eve into biting the apple. He is not going to come down as a literal many-headed beast nor as a great red dragon. I am no prophet and can't see the future, but I can say for sure that he won't make any of his plans obvious and will "decieve even the elect, if it were possible".

I have been absolutely, 100% convinced that the SS# is, if not the precursor to, the mark. The reason? We would not be able to survive in western society for very long without it. No job, no school, no driver's licence, no bank account - no life. Of course, your social security number doesn't say '666', instead, it has "the number of (your) name", that number is your name to the government. And governments and kingdoms in the Bible are usually referred to as 'beasts'.

I cannot say for sure that this is the mark that St. John saw in his vision - it could be a tatoo like the nazis gave the jews or a microchip inserted beneath the flesh - but the spirit of the social security number is the same as the mark. Every other card you own, down to your video store and air miles card, can be tracked to your SS#. And everything you do with your cards can be traced by those who know your SS#.

As to having a choice, take a look at the homeless people living in the streets of New York without ID of any sort. These are the people Jesus committed His life to helping, they have refused the mark (in a way), and are paying for it with denegration, isolation, and pitiful desperation, not to mention frostbite.

The amish have also refused to follow our society's path. The pay taxes when they are told to but (except for medical emergencies) they pretty much live their lives the same way their ancestors did. They don't care about money, power, Britney Spear's new boyfriend, or Bush's 'war for oil'. They care about God's Word and try to follow His laws to the best of their ability - they don't saturate themselves with television violence, internet porn, fast food, Stephen King novels, etc. They try to keep themselves pure.

If the world went up in flames, it'd be nonconformists like the amish and small tribes of people like the yanamamo of Peru who would know how to survive. Where you and I rely on Safeway for our food, they rely on their hands and God's blessing. Where we buy our clothing from JCPenny, they shear their own sheep and weave their own garments. If there's any material 'remnant' left after armageddon, it'll be them.

As to Fundamentalists and Charismatics... They are great at spreading the Word to the four corners of the earth - unfortunately, most of their listeners need food, shelter and clothing just as much as the Word of God. They may build houses for the downtrodden at home and abroad, but they spend far more building and upgrading their own luxurious churches, paying their evangalist preachers and youth pastors huge sums, and buying whatever 'christian rock' cds are hot that month.

The (typical) American Christian Evangelist wears fancy, expensive suits to Church on Sunday while the homeless of new york beg for spare change.

"But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of thier garments." MATT 23:5

They go by the name of 'minister', 'pastor', 'leader', etc.

"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren." MATT 23:8

They even go by 'father'.

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." MATT 23:9

Back to Christian leaders...

"Whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; and whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servent: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

Church groups and church youth groups are more interested in having a fun time, participating in car rallies, church camps, and singing happy-happy joy-joy christian tunes than tending to the poor, the wretched, the despicable.

"Come, ye blessed of my Father, inheret the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Like fast food or a quick buck made on the stock market, Fundamentalists believe that salvation is as easy as 'asking Jesus into your heart' and that 'works alone' will not save a soul. So, a non-christian, even as courageous, humbled, meek, and righteous as Gandhi will never inheret the kingdom - according to them, he's burning in hell as we speak. But, according to Paul, someone who follows God's laws, even if they don't know them, is justified in God. But those who know the laws and don't follow them... are in big trouble.

"For not the hearers of the law (christians) are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;" ROM 2:13-15

I'd go on about how so-called evangelists are backing George's "War for Oil", even though he's killed literally tens of thousands during his reign. Or how 'Christian' soldiers go overseas and kill people, breaking God's Commandment, to secure the world for democracy. Or how 'Christian' business owners work their employees to the bone for minimum wage...

But I have to go.

[Edited on 13-12-2002 by Savonarola]

[Edited on 13-12-2002 by Savonarola]

Keep in mind Savonarola that to many your responses seem Fundementalist as well.

See attached

Who killed Jesus