rethinking thermite

1. How did they get the thousands of pounds of explosives into the building without being seen?

Entered the building thru the basement in trucks which had permission
to be there. And up to their floors from freight elevators and stored
on the unoccupied floors in locked offices.

2. How did they install the thousands of pounds of explosives and wiring without being seen?

Unoccupied floors, they were seen however the evidence was destroyed
in the collapse as no security tapes have been found. And who said they needed wire? You can set charges to work by a cell phone.

3. Where did they hide the thousands of pounds of explosives over the weeks it would take to install them?

You didn't need weeks to plant devices if everything was planned
correctly and charges were placed according to a diagram provided.
It's like an emergency exit map in an office saying "you are here"
cept this one said "plant #12 device here".

4. Would walls need to be removed to get to supportive columns to plant the explosives?

Walls did not need to be removed. Just a hole cut in them to get
to the column desired. With a small cutting tool you could cut a hole
in the dry-wall in about 5 minutes. The columns that had to be cut
would have taken the longest. String melting in a circle could cause
a hole big enough to get the devices inside the column. And would burn
off rather quickly as some are rigged to work in 5 or 10 or 20 second
intervals and then go out. If a 5 second burn-out wasn't sufficient enough
to get thru, then another one was used. Pretty simple really if you
reverse engineer it.

Originally posted by Zeta115
You didn't need weeks to plant devices if everything was planned
correctly and charges were placed according to a diagram provided.
It's like an emergency exit map in an office saying "you are here"
cept this one said "plant #12 device here".

Thanks for the responses. Actually demolitions are set up typically over several weeks and for large buildings can take even months to set up properly

reply to post by Zeta115


FYI - the power down has only been reported by one person. So in only one Tower. And noone else has corroborated this.

But here's my Q's from the other thread:

That's certainly an interesting theory. But I think it won't stand up to a little scrutiny.....

I think that the columns were boxed, so I don't know how one would gain access to the inside, short of torching holes in them to do like you're saying.

Thermite needs to "blow" into the steel in order to cut it, when you're attempting to cut horizontally. There are canisters that do this, explained in my post. They are basically a tube that makes the reaction of the thermite/ate "blow" out the only open end. Dripping thermate would just fall all the way to the bottom and have no effect on the core columns.

I think your timeline proposes that the use of cutter charges also. What would be the point of this? Why not just use the cutter charges if you're going that route? Why complicate matters?

And I believe your time line proposes that you cut all the columns at the time of impact? How could the Towers stand for 50/100 minutes under such a scenario? Or if you cut them later, again, where are the sounds of detonation, right at the moment of collapse begins? And what happened to the thermite during the 50/100 minutes? Why would it just "hang around" there, waiting for the cutter charges to blow? They would have to be very large explosions, and would be plainly heard on any of the videos available, agree? Actually, it would be interesting to get a report from that Danish demo guy on how much explosives would be needed to cut all the columns on a single floor so that we would have something to gauge it.

Lastly, the "metal" dripping out of the 81st floor of 2 has never been positively identified. BTW, this floor also had an uninterruptable power supply (UPS), right in that corner, for Fuji Bank. It also was an impact floor. UPS means batteries. Batteries means lead. Lead melts at a low temp. Also, it's unbelieveable to expect only one single element to be dripping out. One would expect it to be a combination of all the things found in an office. And since it was an impact floor, I would expect it to be a combo of aluminum, lead, and mixed inorganics.

-The towers werent at full occupancy
-Too expensive for companies to stay in the towers
-Many floors and floor sections were closed off to workers
-Renovation crews working in these closed-off sections was routine
-If regular workers had seen the bomb planters carting material around the building- what makes you think they would know what those materials were for?
-There is at least one witness saying he heard constant drilling and movement of heavy objects in off limits sections
-The same witness said his office are was full of very fine dust every morning for a few weeks before 9/11 (drilling byproduct?)
-"Security inspections and tower shutdowns, lengthy evacuations drills, etc
-The list goes on...and on....

(i could be wrong on some of the details on this, just going from memory)

Did the World Trade Center towers undergo a deliberate “power-down” on the weekend prior to the 9-11 terrorist attacks? According to Scott Forbes, a senior database administrator for Fiduciary Trust, Inc. – a high-net investment bank which was later acquired by Franklin Templeton – this is precisely what took place. Forbes, who was hired by Fiduciary in 1999 and is now stationed at a U.K. branch office, was working on the weekend of September 8-9, 2001, and said that his company was given three weeks advance notice that New York’s Port Authority would take out power in the South Tower from the 48th floor up. The reason: the Port Authority was performing a cabling upgrade to increase the WTC’s computer bandwidth.

69.28.73.17...

In addition, Forbes says there were other peculiarities revolving around this unreported event, including:

Forbes may be the only one to say this, but that doesnt make it not true.


[edit on 17-11-2007 by Unplugged]

[edit on 17-11-2007 by Unplugged]

reply to post by Unplugged


The Towers were at 98% occupancy.

Ever put up drywall? Familiar of sanding drywall and the amount of dust you get?

Originally posted by jfj123
Actually demolitions are set up typically over several weeks and for large buildings can take even months to set up properly

That depends on HOW you intend to bring the building down.
If you're planning on using weight counter-balance technique
then all you would need to do is weaken and divert, which means
no large scale demolitions were needed other than 20-30 cutters
and 12 Thermite bombs. This would do the job. However, if you plan
on doing the total cut-joint method then by all means you would
need more explosives, probably hundreds. However, in this
instance the buildings upper weight was used against it thusly
needing less explosives and less prep time. I still say weeks,
as Silverstein only had ownership of the WTC for 9 weeks I believe.
However, Securacom had access 2 years prior as after Silverstein
got the lease the security companies stayed on til there contract ended
or the towers fell down. So I would say 6-9 weeks since Silverstein
got his insurance policy only 6 weeks before 9/11. He knew then,
it was gonna happen In my humble opinion

Geez, some folks believe those columns were encased in concrete
from top to bottom. That is not the case. If you'll look at a set of
as-builts for the towers you can see certain places where it is vulnerable.
So yes, you can cut away dry-wall to get to them with a set of blue-prints
or as-builts.

I'm not a scientist or an engineer but I do occasionally
reverse engineer stuff tinkering around on certain stuff.
My theory is just put together using a reverse engineer
method. I start with what evidence I have seen from the
many you tube movies and work my way backward into
a theory. It's not perfect by all means. But the theory does
give you the conclusion you seek. I was not there in NY
on 9/11 nor did I have anything to do with it. It is just
my redneck reverse engineer theory, that's it. But I
will bet my theory has a lot less holes in it than the
garbage you're getting from the government sources

I'm not going to discredit anyone's theories on thermite being used, but I have a question on the thermite... it's basically rust (iron oxide) and aluminum (Aluminum oxide powder) right? Arent the towers constructed mostly of old steel and aluminum? If they smashed that hard and fast I'd think there'd be rust and alum on EVERYTHING.

Thermite needs to "blow" into the steel in order to cut it,

___ who says you need to cut them to bring the building down
you just need to weaken them. A Thermite drip inside the columns would
heat up all the way down and coat them on the inside especially if
the charges that mixed them splattered the thermite against the
side of the column, just like water runs down the side your house
wall when it rains. _____

Dripping thermate would just fall all the way to the bottom and have no effect on the core columns.

___ Nope, inside the columns are steel plates which separate each section.
Thermite dripping down would pool at the plate until it melted through.
When it pools, it touches the sides again and drips further to the next
joint. _____

I think your timeline proposes that the use of cutter charges also. What would be the point of this?

___ As my diagram explains, a cutter charge underneath the column
with the thermite would divert the path of the drip to the outside
of the core and onto the floor at which the cutter was placed. Very
similar to a damn diverting a river in a new location _____

Why not just use the cutter charges if you're going that route? Why complicate matters?

____ The government needed fires to sustain inside the floors
to make their theory plausible. If the fires were extinguished
or petered out then their reason for collapse wouldn't hold water.
The Thermite insured the fires would remain burning _____

And I believe your time line proposes that you cut all the columns at the time of impact?

____ No I suggested a staggered demolition, the only charges that
went off (IMHO) were the Thermite charges and their respective
cutter charges on that column underneath them. The rest of the cutter
charges were staggered, like taking one swing of an axe on a tree.
One chop at a time til the weight was un-evenly balanced and showed
weakness due to it's tilt, then the final charges were detonated ____

How could the Towers stand for 50/100 minutes under such a scenario?

___ One chip at a time from the tree, eventually brings the tree
down. Except this case the core columns were used to stabilize
the collapse. So the building didn't fall to the side _____

Or if you cut them later, again, where are the sounds of detonation, right at the moment of collapse begins?

___ There is an explosion heard right before the collapse on the videos
I watched and the squibs verify that fact _____

And what happened to the thermite during the 50/100 minutes?

___ Running down the inside of the columns, weakening the steel
so they couldn't support the weight, except for just a few which were
used for the floor fires to keep them burning for the effect of the
audience watching _____

They would have to be very large explosions, and would be plainly heard on any of the videos available, agree?

___ It is my theory that the entire set of thermite bombs and their
respective cutter charges were detonated when the plane impacted
the building. So the planes masked the sound of these initial thermite
bombs going off. However, the subsequent charges going off was heard and
documented in that video clip where the firefighters were on the phone
calling home to tell somebody they we ok and also from that video
from across the river also explosions were heard and smoke seen
coming from the basement area _____

reply to post by MostlyHarmless

There was Thermite residue on some pieces recovered from
the clean-up. Mr. King (I think) from MIT provided a sample
he recovered and it DID include thermite residue on it. However,
more evidence could have been retrieved if the government
hadn't destroyed the crime scene But i guess if you'd just
committed a crime, a smart criminal would want to wipe
their fingerprints off as soon as possible

However, 90% of the evidence of 9/11 never made it to the
9/11 Commission Report. The investigation was doomed
to fail from the start. I knew that just as soon as the President
said he would not go under oath to answer the questions to
the commission. That sounds a lil like diplomatic immunity
to me.


[edit on 17-11-2007 by Zeta115]

Originally posted by Zeta115
Thermite needs to "blow" into the steel in order to cut it,

___ who says you need to cut them to bring the building down

you just need to weaken them. _____

***The Thermite would fall too fast to heat up anything. Remember, these columns had thick walls. Too much mass to heat with dispersed Thermite. And where have you read that thermite would "stick"?******

Dripping thermate would just fall all the way to the bottom and have no effect on the core columns.

___ Nope, inside the columns are steel plates which separate each section.
_____

*** Do you have reference for these plates? And so it would melt SIDEWAYS through the columns, but not down throught the plate? Please rethink this....***

I think your timeline proposes that the use of cutter charges also. What would be the point of this?

___ As my diagram explains, a cutter charge underneath the column
with the thermite would divert the path.... _____

*** Cutter charges would blow the thermite all over the place, and it wouldn't have an effect on anything. Please rethink this one too.***

Why not just use the cutter charges if you're going that route? Why complicate matters?

____ The government needed fires to sustain inside the floors
to make their theory plausible. _____

**** Ok, this has a tiny bit of merit, however....I guess the jet fuel and office contents aren't enough of a fire? So why do other office fires continue to burn after they start? Are all office fires started/continued with thermite? Remember, each floor is an acre, the size of a football field.***

And I believe your time line proposes that you cut all the columns at the time of impact?

____ No I suggested a staggered demolition, the only charges that
went off (IMHO) were the Thermite charges ____

***Ok, this has a tiny bit of merit also. But I'd like to see some paper on how much explosives would be necessary to cut the columns. Then a video of it. Then an account of the number of times explosions were heard through the day. But you need to remember that despite what you've been told, the Towers were at 98% occupancy and the power down has been testified to by one guy, to my knowledge, which means only one Tower. And even he says only the top part was down. ****

How could the Towers stand for 50/100 minutes under such a scenario?

___ One chip at a time from the tree, _____

*** Ok, this has merit.***

Or if you cut them later, again, where are the sounds of detonation, right at the moment of collapse begins?

___ There is an explosion heard right before the collapse _____

*** I'd like to see this video. I've never seen one where explosion are heard at the exact time of collapse. ***

And what happened to the thermite during the 50/100 minutes?

___ Running down the inside of the columns _____

***Again, thermite CAN'T stay hot enuf for long enough to do that. ***

They would have to be very large explosions, and would be plainly heard on any of the videos available, agree?

___ It is my theory that the entire set of thermite bombs and their
respective cutter charges were detonated when the plane impacted
the building. _____

*** The cutter charges weren't documented on anything. Assumptions can be made about what the explosion were, and cutter charges certainly can be one of them. But don't stretch here and claim that they're documented on that video. It could have been many things. Other possibilities include snapping steel and transformers. Look on youtube for Big Blue + crane, and transformer explosions.***

Had to shorten your answers to get it all to fit.

reply to post by Zeta115


Nobody found thermite residue anywhere.

The elements of thermite were found, but these elements are common, so it is inconclusive at best, or an outright lie by Jones.

LOL ..... sorry I just have to laugh. It's a theory dude

Originally posted by Haroki
reply to post by Zeta115

 

Nobody found thermite residue anywhere.

That's not true

Video below
Jeff King MIT Thermite Video


The elements of thermite were found, but these elements are common,

That's not true either, refer to same video ^^^^

so it is inconclusive at best, or an outright lie by Jones.

That's not true either as it didn't come from Jones, it comes from
an MIT Engineer named Jeff King

see video

Originally posted by Zeta115

Originally posted by jfj123
Actually demolitions are set up typically over several weeks and for large buildings can take even months to set up properly

That depends on HOW you intend to bring the building down.
If you're planning on using weight counter-balance technique
then all you would need to do is weaken and divert, which means
no large scale demolitions were needed other than 20-30 cutters
and 12 Thermite bombs. This would do the job. However, if you plan
on doing the total cut-joint method then by all means you would
need more explosives, probably hundreds. However, in this
instance the buildings upper weight was used against it thusly
needing less explosives and less prep time. I still say weeks,
as Silverstein only had ownership of the WTC for 9 weeks I believe.
However, Securacom had access 2 years prior as after Silverstein
got the lease the security companies stayed on til there contract ended
or the towers fell down. So I would say 6-9 weeks since Silverstein
got his insurance policy only 6 weeks before 9/11. He knew then,
it was gonna happen

In my humble opinion

*** LS almost didn't get the lease. Someone else beat his bid but backed out or couldn't swing the deal.

Insurance is a red herring. He was required to have insurance that included terrorist attacks - remember the '93 attacks? He also lost money on all this. The insurance, etc won't even pay for the rebuild, which he's required to do if he wants to keep ownership on the lease. He'll end up losing 2-3 billion. Yes billion, with a B.

Securcom left WTC in '98. Bush left Securcom in 2000.

Good video link.

The case seems closed. No doubt buildings came down naturally.

BS

The cutting torch argument can very possibly be true. The top and the right cut were made from outside the box column. The left cut was cut leaving the top and bottom 4 to 6 inch sections left uncut. You can tell by the color that these were torn off or broken off not cut. The lower cut had to be done from inside the box. The amount of slag left outside shows two things. 1. The torch used (if it was a torch) had a very dirty tip and did more melting than cutting, this is easily determined by the amount of slag.
2. It is a thick piece of steel, at least 1-1/2" or greater in thickness.

Now if one is to by into the cuts being made during the demolition with a torch, how does one explain how steel of this magnitude came down in a straight path? Steel this size does not break off like wood. It would bend and not break even under tremendous force. These columns can be seen in the actual erection of the towers and they go up as the building goes up.

There should have been several very large box beams like this laying in all directions and outside the foot print. I have not seen this.

No matter what caused this cut in this picture a airplane and fire did not bring down these structures.

Originally posted by Zeta115

Originally posted by Haroki
reply to post by Zeta115

 

Nobody found thermite residue anywhere.

That's not true

Video below
Jeff King MIT Thermite Video


The elements of thermite were found, but these elements are common,

That's not true either, refer to same video ^^^^

so it is inconclusive at best, or an outright lie by Jones.

That's not true either as it didn't come from Jones, it comes from
an MIT Engineer named Jeff King

see video

You must have the wrong video.

He never mentions thermite once.

I don't understand dozens of firemen, and police, and WTC workers (the guy in the basement comes to mine), all say they heard 'multiple' explosions. Many event said they heard more than that. But we won't believe those guys.

We'll only believe the witnesses that fit with our nice little theory that there was just the two planes that impacted, fire that got so hot that it caused the building the structuarlly fail (the in the harley T-shirt knew this just minutes after the collapses, haha) and the buildings fell in a 'pancke' collapse. (as fast as gravity would allow, with no resistance from the floors it was 'pancaking" into). Those guys we'll believe.

I don't get it, who is the judge that says these witnesses are not credible, but those are?

I guess the ones that fit with whatever story helps you sleep better at night are the ones giving accurate accounts of what happened.

I'll put this up again for people who are haveing trouble grasping what went on that day, and what trained people (you know law enforcement, NYPD) people who are trained to remember what they see and hear even in the most stressful situations said they saw, and heard.

youtube.com...

Well, I may be a newb. But I'm still "on the fence" with the whole 9/11 thing. I like to hear all sides of an argument before I call a side; and there are so many sides to this tragedy it's mind-boggling. Good posts though! Thx to all who have kept my mind entertained!