World faces choice on human cloning: U.N. study

World faces choice on human cloning: U.N. study

www.reuters.com

The authors said laws should grant clones full human rights to protect from discrimination.

Otherwise, opponents of clones in an inheritance dispute, for instance, might say that a clone and the person from whom their cells were grown should only get a half share each.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Has their ever seriously been a question as to whether or not human clones would have equal rights under the law?

If so, I believe that shows a SAD state of affairs in the world.

A human clone would not be a clone by CHOICE and should be entitled to all the same rights as a "naturally" born person.


However, let me go on the record right now and say that I an VERY VERY much opposed to straight out human cloning. I have no problem with stem cell issues, but clone a living and breathing human being is just asking for trouble.


jasn

www.reuters.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

very bad ideas!! cloning anything should not go on..not at all. but i dont think it matters, they have been cloning for a while now despite what they have told us. im sure they have been cloning jesus since they found the shroud of torrah (spelling??).. i dont know tho..but as far as we know, the elites are us..they cloned themselves and now thats who we are. and now they bring up the possibilities of it so we can keep the trend goin lol.. im against cloning all the way

cloning wouldnt acctually be such a bad thing. imean if stuff goes down hill bullets still kill anything that breathes.but um i kinda have to say the world has enough people without they're being two of someone we just dont have enough food to be clonin things all willy nily

well think about this. you goto the clinic to get cloned. before they clone you, they are going to check your DNA and fix any "below average" traits and qualities you carry so that when your clone is grown, it is genetically better than you, and designed to take your place... you gotta think about the dark crazy # you dont think they would do lol..for real tho, cuz if it came to cloning humans, they would clone us to make us better than our real selves so they can get rid of us and have more superior versions of us..

reply to post by SimiusDei


Of all the problems with cloning, I think that inheritance rights is probably one of the lowest on the ladder. The problem with this type of discussion is that there are just SO MANY bizzarre scenarios that can be brought up in terms of cloning.

It would seem that cloning is going to be inevitable though. The persuit of the perfect human. I am sure that people will line up to ensure that their offspring are perfect. It just brings into question the scenarios brought up in movies like Gattaca.

Another side of the cloning debate would be the regulations that would have to be put in place to control natural breeding of humans. You would have to ensure that you are not breeding with a DNA match. A good movie that illustrates this side of the topic is "Code 46". I really enjoyed that movie for some reason.

Cloning debate? They're almost here:

www.earthtimes.org...

Without a global ban, the International Court of Justice could judge human reproductive cloning in certain countries perfectly legal...

...of the National University of Ireland said: 'Failure to outlaw reproductive cloning means it is just a matter of time until cloned individuals share the planet.'

Also, this is the third article I found, released over the last two days about cloning, are *they* trying to tell us something? Check this one:

news.independent.co.uk...

It is the first time that scientists have been able to create viable cloned embryos from an adult primate – in this case a 10-year-old male rhesus macaque monkey – and they are scheduled to report their findings later this month.

The scientists will also demonstrate that they have been able to extract stem cells from some of the cloned embryos and that they have managed to encourage these embryonic cells to develop in the laboratory into mature heart cells and brain neurons.

Scientists in South Korea reported in 2004 that they had created the first cloned human embryo but in 2006 their study was retracted after it emerged that its main author, Hwang Woo-suk , had committed fraud.

That article closes w/ a "history" of cloning so far, including a dog, cat, horse, mouse, cow, sheep and now this.

[edit on 12-11-2007 by anhinga]

i used to be dead set against cloning but now, not so much and honestly i am not sure why..

this is yet another medical advancement as far as i am concerend....'could' it be used in a devious way like in the movie gattaca or the 6th day? sure..
but so could friggin organ transplants and chemotherapy right.....

i am looking at it from another point of view...
the 'clone' did not have a choice right? well, when two people have a baby, that baby did not have a choice either..
why is one acceptable and one is not?

also, lets use me for an example....i am piss scared to die and that is the only thing i am afraid of...i'll take to the street with anyone....SCARED to death of death though...
i also have a degenerative back condition that is causing my discs to crumble...i have been in severe pain for 12 years and it is never going to get better..

now, WHY can't i, as an adult go in to the cloning center and have myself cloned? MY choice right..
since i feel like my life has sucked for 12 years and it is not gonna get better, i think it would be rad if i could clone 'myself', even if i would still have a degenerative condition....i could raide myself and teach myself....we all say 'if i could go back and go it all over again'...well, this might be a way to do it..

i would teach myself all the things that i(non clone) feel is important...
i would ensure that 'I' would live longer and see more advancements...

essentially thats what we do with our offspring...we reproduce with another person...well now, we might not need that other person.

so what is the difference between reproducing a 'kid' that has half my chromo's vs all my chromo's?
i just don't see the problem.

about worrying about mating with a genetic match.....do we not have to worry about that now?
if you're adopted and you meet a chick in your twenty's, how do you KNOW she is not your bio sister..?you're adopted.

in the end, the only reasons i think i can entertain to be against this would be ethical reasons and the 'playing god' argument.

well, i don't believe in god and i have my own set of ethics that i don't push on others.

i have to go pay a bill but i want to get all up in this when i get back...

WHY shouldn't i be able to have myself cloned if i wanted to?

i decided not to go...someone get on in here and debate this with me

Who has the authority to decide on what we can and cannot do when it comes to cloning? There are so many people on this site that scream when they find out the gov't is taking their rights away, but when it comes to cloning it seems to be brushed aside. Why?

Ask yourself this question,
If you knew that there is no soul in the clone you create to save your life would you do it?

I mention the word soul since most people believe in them. So is it possible that a clone, that is created as a parts source, would not be given a soul?

I only say that since we don't know when a soul is put into a person. That is if souls really exsist. I cannot prove either one so how can we decide on something that we have no proof of?

If that isn't enough to make you think try this,
How do we know that the forces that made us wouldn't see that the clone will be used as parts so they leave the soul out?

I got no answers, but I got lots of questions. I also say let cloning happen unless you enjoy watching people suffer and die when a cure for them is possible through cloning. Until we find another solution for them why not work on one that is available?

I guess it comes down to what you believe in. Will this be the start of a showdown between different belief systems?

Originally posted by NJ Mooch
Who has the authority to decide on what we can and cannot do when it comes to cloning?


Will this be the start of a showdown between different belief systems?

well, i would venture to say that 'most' people that are against cloning are religious...not all of course but that is a bet i would take...the ole we are not god and only god can create a person, blah blah so to them, only god has the authority...

now, as for me and my beliefe system, i think each individual ADULT should have the authority to decide of they want to clone themselves....
a doctor should not have to be made to perform this procedure BUT, if such and such doc does not have a moral problem with it and i have the cash, whats the problem?

i do think this is gonna be a showdown....between the 'religious' and the 'non religious'...

i don't understand how it is a moral or ethical problem....we have regular ole full term, missionary conception pregnancies..we have in vetro. we have test tube babies. we have surrogate moms..we have adoption and abortion.
in ALL of those cases mentioned, the 'baby' did NOT have a choice....i ask how is that any different than a 'clone' not having a choice???


i'm serious man...i'm 30 now. depending on how my health goes, i would clone myself when i am about 50 if i could...i would teach my clone the things i wanted my clone to learn. then right around when i hit 70 and die, my clone(me) is out in about in the real world.

of course i could change my mind...i have yet to hear an argument against it though that would make me change my mind...

I totally get what you are saying. The doc might have a problem with it, but there is always another that will take your money and make things happen.

As far as the religion thing goes, this will be interesting. At the moment that we become God-like the church will do whatever it takes to stop that from continuing. Why? Maybe they are afraid of losing the control they have over the sheep they tend to.

I always enjoy asking them a simple question, "If your God didn't want us to figure things out why did he allow us to use our brains?" I usually get no answer from them.

The idea you got of cloning yourself then teaching it the way you think is interesting. You can, in theory, continue living forever when it comes to the way you think, but your memories can't be transplanted into your new body at this time. When that happens then things will get really interesting since you would be able to live forever.

With that in mind cloning would be the first step in being able to live forever since you will need the vehicle to move your data into. Moving the info from one brain to another is impossible today, but how long will it take before it is possible? If that is the case, you would be like a hermit crab. Get rid of the old shell and move into the new one. That might be a bad analogy since our minds are way cooler then a hermit crab.

Originally posted by NJ Mooch

The idea you got of cloning yourself then teaching it the way you think is interesting. You can, in theory, continue living forever when it comes to the way you think, but your memories can't be transplanted into your new body at this time. When that happens then things will get really interesting since you would be able to live forever.

With that in mind cloning would be the first step in being able to live forever since you will need the vehicle to move your data into.

first, religion, religious people(most of them) are always going to have a problem with this. same with other research. they're going to use their book and their habit of pushing morals and ethics on everyone else...don't get me wrong, there are going to be some non religious that are against it as well but nothing like you get/will get from the religious and lets face it, they're the ones with the influence.
just wanted to get that out of the way....

it would kind of be living forever(or as long as the clones want to keep getting cloned)...how often do we say man i wish i would have known that 10 years ago or i wish i could have known in highschool what i know now? well, this is a way to do that.

for example, i can look at my 30 year life, how things were and how things are going. my beliefs and such.
i would teach my clone what i want it to know(just like people do with their kids)..it would be a different kind of relationship than with a child though cause i would be teaching/raising myself.
i know that i have a back condition so i could teach myself from early on to lift properly to avoid a lifetime of pain..

it is endless the things i would teach the clone..again, just like you would do with your child but you are teaching you..


it's kinda like a life insurance policy..is that clone going to benefit you when you are dead? course not..you're dead...
does a life insurance policy for your family benefit you when you are dead?
nope...benefits your loved ones though and while you are alive, it gives you a feeling of comfort knowing they would be taken care of.

my clone would be my life insurance policy or sorts. it would give me comfort knowing that once I die, there will be another me to follow right along with what i have been doing. there will be another me to see the next however many years of advancement.

and if you want to get down to brass tax, why not?
like i said, as an adult, why shouldn't i be able to?

serious question...
choice was mentioned.
my clone would have had the same choice as if it were my bio child.
WHAT is the difference?

the clone has no soul?---religious argument
some moral argument?---i have my own morals thank you


so seriously, why not?

The idea of a clone to help out your family after you die is pretty cool if you ask me. Some people have a hard time moving on after someone dies. This would eliminate that, maybe not 100%, but it will make a difference. Having this become a part of an insurance polic might sway the support it gets since there is money to be made.

You may have found the easiest way to get the gov't to approve cloning since you found a way to make plenty of money on the idea by adding it to your insurance policy. I can't imagine what the premium would be, but i'm sure there would be plenty of people who are willing to pay for it.

Originally posted by NJ Mooch
The idea of a clone to help out your family after you die is pretty cool if you ask me. Some people have a hard time moving on after someone dies. This would eliminate that, maybe not 100%, but it will make a difference. Having this become a part of an insurance polic might sway the support it gets since there is money to be made.

the possibilities for what you could do with a clone of yourself are endless.
i think the biggest 'hurdle' woulld be the ethical end of the treatments of a clone...know what i mean..

i'll get into that later...

say i am a composer or this or that...pick something.
i have spent my life working on my opus. i know i am not going to get it done in my lifetime. if i have the cash, why not clone myself. like i said earlier, teach myself this and that.
my clone could continue my opus after i am gone.



treatment of clones will be the biggest issue.
would they be treated like AI, almost like a robot? would they be treated like a 'normal' human being with all rights of a human?
are they human?
those are going to be the major issues along with the religious end.


i will be more than happy to change my stance as i am very open minded about this. i love this topic cause i think it is a very valid topic...these issues ARE popping up.

i just ave not heard any valid arguments imo, against cloning.

nobody has a choice in being born. whats the difference with a clone not having a choice to be cloned?

---------

lets look at another angle of this, kinda like the movie the island.

i have a back condition. i had to have a fusion done at L5S1 and it failed. i have a cadaever bone, a pieve of bone from my hip, a titanium cage and some sort of 'cement' back there.
it failes and has left me with years of pain, a life of pain to look forward to, nerve damage, depression, etc....

now, should i be allowed to clone myself so when my next disc starts to crumble(which it will), i have a viable disc that would fit MY body perfectly?
i know and my doctors know that another disc is going to crumble..which disc and when is the mystery...it WILL happen.
when i have to have my next surgery, we are using 'foreign' materials and 'foreign' bone to fix me.
wouldn't an exact match to my disc be better for me?

could the clone be cloned without the condition?
if not, the clone lives it's 'life' in an environment like the island so there is little chance for strain on the clones discs.
so when i am 40 and need a disc for my back, i could go to my clone.
i could get the viable disc and the clone could get the cage and cadaever....

now i am not saying i am for this.....i am saying this is an issue that pops up.

i for one do not beleive that people have souls.
that still does not convince me that a clone should or should not have human rights....
thats a thinker

could there be an accelerated growth?

another example....my wife and i are both cloned for, 'just in case'..
my wife and i are both up there in age and i go to the store and get in a car accident..now my wife, say is at 65 years old, we have no children and she is alone.

could my clone be accelerated to my age at my accident to come to be with my wife for companionship.
it wouldn't be me but it would look like me and sound like me. now some people would freak out at that thought but what if my wife would take comfort in the fact that in her last years, she is not 'alone'.

what if she could look at the clone that has the same look and mannerisms as me and trigger good memories for her.

i would like my wife to be happy as much as possible.....
---

keep in mind, i am just sitting here watching tv and thinking out loud on here about possible issues and possibilities with human cloning.

---

my father in law has MD. what can't i as an adult, clone myself and teach it ALL about MD. just every day all day learning about the disease. learning how to care for people with limb girdle. learning how to transfer and this and that...
then, the clone could be live in care, tailor made to care for my father in law...my father in law would have a 'person' there that he is 'comfortable' with in looks an in mannerisms and voice...
things like that.

then you have to bring ethics and morals into it...
thats kind of a problem because there is NO MORAL or ethical standard.
no matter what peole say, they all have their own moral compass.
the bible is looked at by some as the moral guide but not all people put stock in it...it means nothing to me.
so, my moral compass is going to be different than my very religious family member.
who's right?

see what i mean?

is this a pro choice type issue? on an individual basis i mean
abortion is
adoption is
conception is
marriage is
in vereo is
artificial insemanation is
test tube baby is
surrogate mom is
to be off or on life support is(living will)


those are all individual, personal choices that people make....

does cloning fit into that or should the gov regulate it?

i don't know

Originally posted by uneaq
very bad ideas!! cloning anything should not go on..not at all. way

I have to disagree with this. I believe cloning and growing internal organs is a must with the ever growing population. It saves lives! I know if I needed a liver replacement (for example) I'd want them to grow me a new one, if they so could.

Cloning an entire human though is totally a no go though for me. You're creating life. Playing the role of 'God' as it were. Bringing some creature into the World with feelings. You all know where 'playing God' would end up. It smells like a recipe for disaster!

No doubt anyway secret facilites around the World funded by whoever, would try to do it anyway even if a law was passed. It would be done in secret like much of todays secret bases currently are working.

There's rumours that the only reason the USA and Russia etc want to bases on the moon is so that eventually they can launch missiles from the moon if ever there was a war. The simple thing there is that you can't fight back or strike directly at the base on the moon, giving you the upper hand. The same thing could happen here for countries to strengthen there selves in a war situation. Imagine a country being able to 'grow' their own soldiers. The mind boggles when even thinking about the possibility of making them not have feelings either and feeling no remorse.

that's what I mean when I say 'playing God' could open up endless pathways to a life very, very, very far away from what we currently know.

Originally posted by Arawn

I have to disagree with this. I believe cloning and growing internal organs is a must with the ever growing population. It saves lives! I know if I needed a liver replacement (for example) I'd want them to grow me a new one, if they so could.

Cloning an entire human though is totally a no go though for me. You're creating life. Playing the role of 'God' as it were. Bringing some creature into the World with feelings.

first, i am all for cloning/growing organs, arms, whatever they can grow. 100%
about cloning an entire human and 'creating life', people create life every day via intercourse.
this would be creating life from dna

life=life? is it the same? i don't know......

take the god complex out of it and what is the difference?
cause it wasn't created the ole fashioned way?

cause with a clone you alreay know what you're gonna get?

cause as mentioned in previous posts, there are many ways to create life that are not 'natural' and more 'scientific'...

I would personaly feel closer to a child if it was a clone of me moreso than just a kid made with some other human. It would be harder to lie to something when my mind percives it as being me(even though it won't think the same as it is a new person mentaly). I would raise my clone as my own child.

Originally posted by LordBaskettIV
I would personaly feel closer to a child if it was a clone of me moreso than just a kid made with some other human. It would be harder to lie to something when my mind percives it as being me(even though it won't think the same as it is a new person mentaly). I would raise my clone as my own child.

so why shouldn't you be able to have a clone and do just that?

i've yet to hear a good argument that will sway me.