�The Americans are treating us like animals."

�The Americans are treating us like animals."

US Misrepresenting Casualty Counts; Beating Sheikhs in Ramadi

Dahr Jamail

01/29/04: (ICH) Yesterday in Khaldiya, 60 miles west of Baghdad, a powerful roadside bomb exploded killing US soldiers. Iraqi civilians were killed by US soldiers� gunfire during the aftermath. However, questions about the conflicting numbers as to the number of dead US soldiers and Iraqi civilians remain. In a CENTCOM press release for the incident, the US Military claims that three task force �All American� soldiers were killed in the blast by the Improvised Explosive Device (IED), and one Iraqi killed. The press release also states that one soldier and several Iraqis were wounded.



Source

[Edited on 30-1-2004 by ArchAngel]

[Edited on 31-1-2004 by Thomas Crowne]

This post is extremely typical of your anti american sentiment...

Its also bullshyt...if youd been there youd know this.

I read the source..
Try to find that article on ANY respectable news agency
wire,
you wont its fiction plain and simple.

This is disgusting. They should leave, thier only provoking more violence.

Deep

Originally posted by cyberpilot
This post is extremely typical of your anti american sentiment...

I am very much Pro-American. Being against what is wrong does not make me against everything else.

I know it is hard to accept, but we are not the 'good guys' in the eyes of many Iraqi's. They want us to leave their nation, and I think we should honor that request.

And an apology would not hurt either.

All for the good of America.

We do not disagree on supporting America, we disagree on the means, and methods to the current foriegn policy.

AA, maybe I misread you, if so I apologize..
I do support a positive transfer of power and succesive
pull-out.

However according to my experience and that of my comrades the story you posted is hooey-Our boys are not running cowboy amuk as this story asserts.

It may not be the actions of the average occupational soldiers, but this sort of thing does happen.

The problem becomes much greater when it is community leaders who are abused in the hunt for 'terrorists'.

Try to look at it from their perspective. The people had done nothing. They suffered for years under sanctions, and then were invaded for WMD that have not been found.

More than half the nation lost their jobs, thousands were killed, many still do not have water, or electric service, and the government is even less representative than it was Under Saddam.

No matter how bad he was Saddam was still and Iraqi, and at one time he was a true 'liberator'.

Now they are ruled by the same ones who bombed them before, and used the threat of a veto to keep the sanctions on them for so long.

They hate us. Why would they not? Because we liberated them?

They are not 'liberated' yet, so that how can you expect them to be thankful to us for liberating them?

From their perspective we attacked, invaded, and occupied them against international law with lies for justifications.

If the mission was to get Saddam, and find the WMD why are we still there?

"From their perspective we attacked, invaded, and occupied them against international law with lies for justifications."

*cough* BS *cough*
Provide the link where the majority of Iraqis think and say this...

Are you saying that the Iraqi people desire the return or the past rule of "liberator" Saddam? Link?

This article is no more than what you are also implying and indicating...anti-war propaganda and half-truths.


regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
"From their perspective we attacked, invaded, and occupied them against international law with lies for justifications."

*cough* BS *cough*
Provide the link where the majority of Iraqis think and say this...

Are you saying that the Iraqi people desire the return or the past rule of "liberator" Saddam? Link?

This article is no more than what you are also implying and indicating...anti-war propaganda and half-truths.


regards
seekerof

Please provide a link to where I said a majority.

I am not saying they want Saddam back. Hating Saddam, and wanting America to leave are not mutally exclusive.

And what is it that makes this propoganda?

It seems to me that all the propoganda was pro-war.

What of it has turned out to be true?

Its also bullshyt...if youd been there youd know this.
I read the source..
Try to find that article on ANY respectable news agency
wire,
you wont its fiction plain and simple.

It's just the way journalism works.

If I want to write a story about how the Iraqis love the US presence, then I only talk to people who have had good experiences with the soldiers and who have benefited from their presence. I put a picture of a mother holding the child that an American soldier helped save on it.

If I want to write a story about how Iraqis hate Americans, then I talk to the Iraqis who are effected negatively by the Americans. I show a shopowner who's business was destroyed or the innocent civilian who lost his arm during a firefight.

Either way, I come away with a news article which is accurate and true.

The attitude of an entire country can't be learned from one article or by talking to ten people, all from the same village. It can't really be known at all. Just estimated.

If you're not there experiencing it in person, you will never truly know, no matter how many articles you read, how much video footage you see, no matter how many statistics, quotes, or theories you study.

And even the people who are there can do little more than go on feelings and guesses and hope they are making the right choices.


Sure a total pullout is good for the American soldiers and their families.

It isn't as good for the Iraqis who would suddenly be under the rule of the group with the most money and firepower.

Arch, evasive as par......your wanting the US out is pretty known here....Just as it is pretty known that Iraqis are wanting to vote and excitedly awaiting to take full control of thier nation's future.

Who mentioned "hating Saddam anyhow"? When you answer that, you'll have your answer to the "mutually exclusive."

Your use of "all" implies alot there Arch, just as reading all your comments does...........
"All" propaganda was not "all" pro-war, it was also on the anti-war side.

"What of it has turned out to be true?"

Your point? What turned out to be true is that Saddam is has been removed, as per the 1998 Iraq Liberation Act. The "damage is done"....Saddam is no longer in power, the reasons have been given and some will side with "justifued" and some will side with "unjustified".



regards
seekerof

Originally posted by ArchAngel
If the mission was to get Saddam, and find the WMD why are we still there?

There are many, many reasons.

Some are transparent: We are still looking for WMD's.

Some are economically sound, morally eyebrow-raising: Let's face it, the more we aid in reconstruction, the more obliged the future Iraqi government will be in selling us cheap oil. Also, the better the infrastructure of Iraq, the cheaper the oil.

Some are morally sound: To install a democratic, unoppressive government to help build a new Iraq.

Some are inescapable: The decision to war was made and the fact is, it is now too late to pullback. Although there may be different ways to move towards a new Iraq, the simple fact is, if we left right now, the Iraqi people would fall under the control of the most aggressive and powerful among them. They would have little security, a country of rubble, fear of retribution for aiding the Americans, worries about basics such as water, electricity, etc. Their position certainly wouldn't improve.

These soldiers in the military didn't join so they could learn how to shoot a gun and earn money washing aircraft carriers.

It's called the Army for a reason. People die fighting for their country.

It seems to me that all the propoganda was pro-war.

Most people around the world oppose the war led by US against Iraq. But the Key is "Is this war a legal one?". The excuse of this war is Weapon of Mass Destruction, but finally it became a one against dictatorship, so ridiculous!!!!

Arch, evasive as par......your wanting the US out is pretty known here....Just as it is pretty known that Iraqis are wanting to vote and excitedly awaiting to take full control of thier nation's future.

There is no 'light at the end of the tunnel'. Nothing even close to a representative government has even been suggested yet, only thinly veiled reorganization of the puppet regime. The promises are only words that have not been backed up with any actions.

Who mentioned "hating Saddam anyhow"? When you answer that, you'll have your answer to the "mutually exclusive."

It was a reply to your question of Iraqis wanting Saddam back. Hating Saddam, and hating America are not mutually exclusive. They can hate both equally without any contradiction.

What reason do they have to like any of us?

Liberation is not an answer because they are not liberated.

Your use of "all" implies alot there Arch, just as reading all your comments does...........

"All" propaganda was not "all" pro-war, it was also on the anti-war side.

What anti-war propoganda was there? There certainly was plenty of Pro-war propoganda.

"What of it has turned out to be true?"

Your point? What turned out to be true is that Saddam is has been removed, as per the 1998 Iraq Liberation Act. The "damage is done"....Saddam is no longer in power, the reasons have been given and some will side with "justifued" and some will side with "unjustified".

Saddam was removed as a consequence of the invasion. The Iraq liberation act was not authorized by the people of Iraq, or any international authority.

There is no justifcation. The self-serving fluffy-warm feel-good ideal of 'liberation' is a mental defensive mechanism for those who have run out of any realistic justifications, yet refuse to admit that maybe we were wrong, or that (Gasp!) they were fooled. The last is probably the most difficult.

I say shout it out loud.

Bush lied, Powel lied, Cheney lied, Rumsfeld lied....They all lied.

Admit it, deal with it, get over it, do something about it so they will not do this, or worse again. Tolerance will only encourage greater lies in the future.

[Edited on 30-1-2004 by ArchAngel]

"Admit it, deal with it, get over it, do something about it so they will not do this, or worse again. Tolerance will only encourage greater lies in the future."

I would think that what is good for the "goose" is also good for the "gander" Arch.
You "admit it, deal with it, get over it"....."do something about it" was done and accomplished Arch: "Saddam is no longer in power, the reasons have been given and some will side with "justifued" and some will side with "unjustified"....period.
Say it to your self ..... no matter how you or anyone else wants to 'paint' the war on Iraq...the results will still be the same, as will the increasing betterment of Iraqis and Iraq itself....no matter the amount of anti-war propaganda you and others wish to continue putting forth.



regards
seekerof

"will the increasing betterment of Iraqis and Iraq itself...."

Whose to say that The US wont throw in another dicator.
I was opposed to this war from day one.
Seekerof, how do you justify the deaths of innocent little children in iraq who were killed because "intel" seemed bang on the dot that Saddam had weapons?

I remember this thread a while back posted a story on an orphanage that was bombed, Pathetic.
Justify that.

Deep

Pathetic is when you spoke nothing of Saddam's "doings" Zero......
Again....there will be those who will say the war was justified and unjustified. To question me regarding " how do you justify the deaths of innocent little children in iraq who were killed because "intel" seemed bang on the dot that Saddam had weapons", is like me asking where were you and your implied condemnations when Saddam was killing, maiming, murdering his people? Where were you on those threads with the discussions of Saddam's past and present mass graves, with their children bodies still grasping at their dolls and such??
"Justify that."


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 30-1-2004 by Seekerof]

You "admit it, deal with it, get over it"....."do something about it" was done and accomplished Arch: "Saddam is no longer in power, the reasons have been given and some will side with "justifued" and some will side with "unjustified"....period.

We caught Saddam.

Whoop-D-Do!

At a price of hundreds of billions of dollars, hundreds of our men and women, the reputation of America, and against all international law it was not worth it.

I did not see anyone dancing in the streets after he was caught, so I doubt it was that big of a deal to anyone else.

How could such a hollow victory be why we went through all of this?

"I did not see anyone dancing in the streets after he was caught.."

Of coarse you didn't Arch, but it was carried on a many news media sources. And to top that, many thousands of Iraqi non-Kurds have made it known that they want Saddam executed. That too was carried in media news sources.

As to this:

"At a price of hundreds of billions of dollars, hundreds of our men and women, the reputation of America, and against all international law it was not worth it."

Write a few letters to your state congressmen, state senators, etc.


regards
seekerof

Of coarse you didn't Arch, but it was carried on a many news media sources.


I was talking about Americans dancing in the street.

There were none.

If the reason for invading was to get Saddam the people showed little joy when he was captured.

And if that was the reason for the war I believe the people majority of Americans would have been against it. With visions of mushroom clouds, and floating anthrax spores dancing in their heads the war went forward.

Without that it would not have happened.

The lead up to the war was the greatest propoganda campaign in the history of t he world.

I remember seeing dancing on the streets, many times. I'm sure there is still footage out there of Iraqis pulling the Saddam statue down with US help, that is one example. And, wow, what a metaphor that was, btw.

It wasn't a 'big deal' when Saddam was caught?? omg! You're kidding, right? How many mass graves won't now be filled...

Hundreds of billions? I thought it was 87. Which about 20 of that went into rebuilding, the rest was a mil investment.

ArchAngel, no offense but...it just seems like every talking point you bring up is off.