The Crime of Sex

Correct me if I am wrong, but after looking at various sex crimes they are all based on moral views and not that any wrong doing has been done.

Prostitution, incest, pedophilia, homosexuality, bestiality, fornication, etc.

Are these not examples of morals becoming the law of the land? Who says a baseless belief system should become the rule of law? Is this not equivalent to a religion enforcing moral rule over a society?

Your opinions as to why we should tolerate laws based on moral arguments are welcomed.

Those that agree that we should exclude moral laws are welcome, but you better be able to stand the heat.

some of those you listed are based on morality, but others, well, sorry....it's the government job to ensure that you respect the rights and life of others in the community.

incest and pedophilia usually provokes the image of a child, and a child doesn't have the judgement abilities to adequately deal with the problem of someone trying to do naughty things to them, so ya, laws should be written against it. I ain't basing this on any religous moral doctrines, but rather, empathy, towards the child!
same goes for rape.
beastility? well, I suspose that if the animal belongs to another, then ya, the other should have some kind of recourse to get compensation for any damage done to their animal....including trauma!

homosexuality should be no one's business, as long as the homosexual couple behaves as other couples do in public settings. Fornification is the business of only those involved, till children come along, then both parents should be held accountable for the children's care.
I didn't come up with these conclusions based on any moral creeds, but rather, was harm forced or coerced upon another, and should that other be protected under the laws...

what I don't get, is that with so many real problems going on in our country right now, damns about to collapse, bridges falling down, fires burning california, wars and their budget overload...
why all the concern on us peasants morality? seems to be the biggest, most immoral people, are sitting in high places in our government, and in the corporations, they are importing poisonous toys for our children to play with, and sending us into proverty with their outsourcing of jobs. They are putting our children's children hopelessly into debt before they are even born! They are wasting natural resources producing a ton of crap no one needs and spending millions convincing us we need them. They will probably use them all up before our grandchildren are born!
with all that going on, why should I care if Joe and Mike are shacking up together? Joe and Mike ain't hurting me and mine! They ain't giving me contaiminated meat to eat or lead filled toys for my children to play with. They ain't taking my money from me and funneling into their buddies hands...

reply to post by ben91069


i'm sorry, but pedophilia isn't just an issue of personal morality.. it's also a bit of an issue of consent. that's why we call it the "age of consent" instead of the "age of sex"

Originally posted by ben91069
Prostitution,

Prostitution in its self is not illegal in most places, there are many houses of ill repute spread about. Street prostitution is against the law both for moral reasons, public health concerns and the safety of the women in this profession.

incest,

Incest is illegal due to the fact that it is against the laws of nature, any child bourn to such a union is bound to suffer from physical/mental problems

pedophilia,

A child cannot properly make the decision to have sex, so there for having sex with a child is rape.

homosexuality,

Any anti-gay law is just plain out and out wrong.

bestiality,

How can you assume that you have the animals consent? With out consent doesn’t that make it rape?

I am only going to address prostitution as the others are not really morality based and homosexuality is not illegal any where I have worked.

Prostitution s a perfect example of mans attempt to legislate morality and the complete failure of that effort..

We would be far better off if, like narcotics, we regulated and taxed that particular profession.

I have known "street girls" in my time and have even made friends of a few. They are all out there for various reasons and the laws we have that make it criminal are part and parcel what makes it so dangerous...

Semper

reply to post by ben91069

Are these not examples of morals becoming the law of the land?

Most of those aren't based on morals, in my opinion, except for prostitution. The rest are laws set up to protect the members of our society least able to protect themselves. Pedophilia and incest for the most part involve children. To say that we are imposing moral judgment on a part of society who don't even know what moral or judgment mean isn't convincing to me.

Bestiality could be argued as a moral law I guess. If one culture thought it was ok to have sex with Bessie the cow or Mary's Lamb, who are we to tell them different. I think we do have it right with that one though.

Homosexuality isn't illegal where I am from. In fact, they have been granted the right to a civil union and be recognized as equals under the law with heterosexual couples.

Your mistake is to not allow for the interplay between morals and emotions. The basic behind any inhibitory moral is that it feels bad. Paedophilia feels bad to most (and do not mistake the age of consent with a six MONTH old being raped, age of consent is an arbitrary line, youth is instinctively felt).

I have not seen cows #ing chickens. I have not seen a male lion raped a cub, though infanticide does occur. Morals come from emotions, and prostitution and homosexuality are seen as consenting adults, but the rest involves behaviour we all revile from, and therefore is certainly immoral.

I do not see prostitution or homosexuality as amoral, because I do not feel I should take the right from other consenting people. Incest is warped and ignorant and paedophilia and bestiality are just plain wrong.

The argument for consenting doenst hold water.

The cult of Jim Jones and Guyana was some 900 consenting, and possible some non consenting adults in the mix, who decided that death was the right way to go.

While their consent was in taking their own lives, does this therefore make it correct?

The Chinese reasoned the killing of baby girls,and infantcide for females in India in addition. Just because the adults think its ok..does it make it so?

Does our giving the Chimp Cocaine and him pushing the button make it right just because he wants it?

People consent within themselves to do that which is harmful to them. Take Meth for example or heroine.

Know that which is right, and be a bastion for right. In the persuit of self, we forget that which is best for all.

Any man who has a cherished relationship or a marriage wrought in love, ask your spouse if they approve of prostitution.

Sure you can do it. But is it beneficial?

Many an injustice have been perpetrated on mankind in the name of reason. We eliminate reason by consent, in the face of right.


Peace



[edit on 4-11-2007 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by HIFIGUY

Ok, 'assuming no harm.'.... that was maybe a little implicit.

Perhaps things such as post tramatic stress disorder is a calling card of that which is wrong. A condition inflicted that surfaces at a time unknown.
Its mechanism in the mind of chaos in which I cannot relate, but I can only imagine the horrors that some servicemen go through.

Rape, can be invisible as a mental scar. Children, as they mature, develop and show characteristics of mental damage. Those of which, can become stumbling blocks in a normal relationship.

See us as people of maturity the seasons? How each comes into that time where the time is right?

We do not drink wine before it is matured, nor bread before it is fully cooked..

Respect the cycle of life within the child. Although the child may want, like that which leads to teenage pregnancy and drugs, we know the path of what is right.

Peace


[edit on 4-11-2007 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by ben91069



I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that ben is being a little more abstract than we are approaching this matter.

I think the point of the thread is to point out that while some may scream that moraity cannot be legislated, morality is exactly why we legislate.

All laws have a basis in morality.

It is immoral to steal. We have laws against stealing.

Only beings with a capacity for and a desire for morality have a need for laws.

The other inhabitants of our planet are amoral and therefore have no laws.

And were it not for immorality among the morally conscious there would be no need for laws.



[edit on 2007/11/4 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by ben91069

 

i'm sorry, but pedophilia isn't just an issue of personal morality.. it's also a bit of an issue of consent. that's why we call it the "age of consent" instead of the "age of sex"

Aren't we just like the animals though? What I mean is, what favor do we have over primates? They have no codified rules of consent yet get along just fine without police, courts, prisons, laws, and unwritten rules. I don't think we are as smart as we think we are.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that ben is being a little more abstract than we are approaching this matter.

Thanks for putting it kindly Grady.

The reason I made this thread goes back to my early childhood. With the current increase in persecution of sex crimes, I wanted to gauge the folks here what their opinions are, with a little debate if necessary.

Primarily I am interested in the social issue of underage sex because as a youth I was molested by an older person, but it did not affect me in the ways and means that MSM and society says it does. Without a lot of details, I was young, experimented, and did not view the activity as being "a victim", "taken advantage of", etc. I notice that one of the selling points of illegal underage relations is that it harms the victim. A good case in point is the little girl pornography tape that recently surfaced. Apparently after finding the child safe, she had no recollection of the event and was unharmed.

I was a bit older than her - 12 to be exact and have no feelings that I was taken advantage of. I can't say I enjoyed it, but just that it was a mediocre experience.

What I am starting to believe is that law enforcement is pushing to legislate this particular crime as being especially heinous based on several connecting circumstances, the first being the central focus.

1) "Victims" of underage sex crime are told what a bad thing was done to them, guaranteeing they are brainwashed to believe it. A majority automatically aligns with the issue, having never been a victim but follows the moral issue.
2) MSM shows, such as America's Most Wanted, depicts victims as most likely being murdered after they are "abused" to cover the evidence.
3) No distinctions are being made between those who are convicted of underage sex crimes and those who may have been accused of other sex crimes.

#3 is one I noticed on television during this election week. Our news ran a short commercial for some upcoming issue that sexual offenders are going to be allowed into the schools (precinct voting locations) to vote, during school hours. What they aren't saying is that this group includes those who in no way have been shown to offend children. We have another issue where they are deliberating whether to make them have special license plates.

You see, I had my own experience as a youth, and it did not ruin me for life. What I see is an uneducated society falling prey to listening to a judicial system that wants more control over any issue that society believes is wrong, whether it actually is or not.

Signature by ben91069
After the end of the world, the Air Force will still be around solely to make fly-overs at NASCAR races.

I couldnt help but notice your signature...

I once had a dream, where I was standing in front of some old Air Force warehouses. The funny thing about it was,they were recycling centers.
There were no more planes or war...

Its written that War will no longer be an art practiced by mankind.

But...back to the topic at hand

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
And were it not for immorality among the morally conscious there would be no need for laws.

Theirin resides the triple point of the issue.

The Amoral who have no sense of right or wrong.
The Moral, who have a moral conscious and recognize there is right and wrong.
The immoral, who do wrong in spite of being morally conscious.

That being said, laws must be implemented to let the amoral know there is a right and wrong and to correct those that do wrong in the face of right.

Jesus Christ stated that he did not come for the righteous, but the unrighteous and sinners. Ill define sinner as ( Errored thought leading to errant behavior )

Many of our laws today, although based on morality, or in fact immoral.

A nation of 5% of the worlds population that carries 25% of the worlds prison populaton is testimony to this.

Good people know what Good is.

Until all mankind comes to recognize Good,

He will struggle within his own law.

Practice one command globally, and you will see change.

Practice Love one another, and the world corrects itself.

All other ways are futile lessons in coming to know the truth.

Peace


[edit on 9-11-2007 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 9-11-2007 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by ben91069


Animals also don't pack themselves shoulder to shoulder like sardines in a can, willingly subject themselves to physical and mental torment in the name of "making a living" and when they do come into conflict with one another, rarely have large advantages over the opposition and suffer great risk of bodily harm.

Humans insist on having a huge population, we make our lives revolve around the concept of stress for profit, and we have easy access to weapons that make conflict almost completely safe for us.

As for your questions... Pedophilia and bestiality are illegal for the same reason rape and murder are - you are harming someone and have no consent to do so. A child's cause and effect thought processes are underdeveloped, and they often do not realize they are allowed to say no. How is an animal going to give consent if a child cannot?

The rest of those? Yeah, that's just moralization. Even the incest - if a brother and sister want to get it on, and they're both old enough to know what the hell they're doing, well, they can go ahead, I could care less.

ben91069

I was abused at a very young age, and well this is what my experience has been....
Although I had entirely forgotten about the incident, it did affect my behaviour in certain situations regardless. It was when I started wondering why I was behaving in this manner in these situations and really delving into it that I remembered what had happened. This occured way back in the 60's so of course, it was pretty much kept hushed if anyone even knew about, which I think they did, because the guy mysteriously disappeared afterwards......I was told he was sent to a mental institution..

But, in my opinion, yes, such an experience occuring in childhood helps mode the person, and well, even if entirely forgotten, will lead to little quirks in the behavior and personality that will pop up every now and then.
Could this be worsened through the media and such focusing on the victimhood, I think so, since they are making the little event into something much bigger and not letting the person bury it into some dark corner of their mind, but then it could also help the person if there it someone around to help the child sort through it early and well, avoid some of the quirkiness.
In my case, the guy just mysteriously vanished from my life, for all I know, my mom could have gotten one of her mafia friends to take care of him. But, he did go....which, I think at least all the media exposure will lead to other villians to just go too....to prison or whatever, but at least they will be out of their victims lives.

reply to post by ben91069

Correct me if I am wrong, but after looking at various sex crimes they are all based on moral views and not that any wrong doing has been done.

Aren't all laws based on the morals of the land? If I stoned someone to death in the US I'd go to jail. Under the right conditions if I stoned someone to death in a middle eastern country I would remain free.

If I didn't have so much to do at home right now I'd resond to each of the examples you provided in your fine post. I'll just write about the one that I was thinking about before reading here.

Prostitution - It's against the law in many places but under a different name it is perfectly legal. That name is dating. Especially one night stands. Come on, think about it. You spend money on a date, dinner, movie, whatever and end up in bed afterwards. What's the difference?

I say legalize prositution. Am I wrong or will this cut down on rape, unwanted pregancies, and std's if the insitution is regulated?

reply to post by Sanity Lost


Take a look at the conditions of prostitutes in Nevada, which has legalized prostitution. Outside of the strip and other high-visibility areas, these girls are effectively paid slaves - many are forbidden to leave, violence is still a tool used to control them, and they have little ability to safely get to the Authorities - who as often as not say "you applied for the job, it's not our business" even in cases of rape and the like. The feeling is that if a girl signs her contract she is in essence throwing away her human rights and there's not much room for the law.

I'm not saying keep prostitution illegal... but there is a long way to go even where it is legal.

reply to post by The Walking Fox

I'm not saying keep prostitution illegal... but there is a long way to go even where it is legal.

As much as I stated I was in favor of legalized prostitution, I agree with what you are saying. A great deal needs to be done to make sure everyone is safe and also are willing participates.