Question for all the anti-masons out there...

Not so much.. I swear, where you guys come up with this stuff... Why can't it just be regular guys? With a regular agenda that, to them, was the right way, but happened to be the wrong way for everyone else?

Take your views on conspiracies..... and simplify it 1000% and you MIGHT be close to the truth, as the real conspiracies are mundane, ordinary and hardly outright sinister in objective.

Tetragrammaton:

What a horrible thread, one I will definently NOT post in, just for the likes of the OP, and it deserves to stay where it is, in the past.. we have enough of them just like them anyways, no?

"anti-secret" is "anti-mason" when you cannot recognize Masonry because it has "secrets" ..

reply to post by Rockpuck


I'm sorry, was that a reply to my post?

reply to post by Rockpuck

"anti-secret" is "anti-mason" when you cannot recognize Masonry because it has "secrets" ..

Anti-secret and anti-mason are not the same, if you are anti-secret you you can still be all for the whole freemason idea just against the secrecy part of it.

I doubt RockPunk will reply to your post Santarii. Seems he only shares information with other masons. (see his post on previous page)

Talk about denying ignorance.

[edit on 11/11/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

Originally posted by SANTARII


Anti-secret and anti-mason are not the same, if you are anti-secret you you can still be all for the whole freemason idea just against the secrecy part of it.

I think, for the most part, it's based around a misunderstanding. Critics of Freemasonry blow the secrecy thing way out of proportion. Freemasonry is a fraternity, and like all classical fraternities and sororities, has a private ritual of initiation, along with private "modes of recognition". But these are the only secrets in Freemasonry and, strictly speaking, none of them are really secrets anyway.



[edit on 12-11-2007 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
I doubt RockPunk will reply to your post Santarii. Seems he only shares information with other masons. (see his post on previous page)

Talk about denying ignorance.

[edit on 11/11/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

Ok. Not sure what the hell your even talking about. If your wondering if I was replying to your post on the other page, yes I was? Will I reply to Santarii? No, how many times have I responded to the same question?

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint

Who would one report it too? World leaders? The authorities? You are so naive!

I'll tell you about the MASONS. Most of them are good people. That's how they recruit new members. They are looking for good men, to join their brotherhood. But, there is evil at the core. AND, thereare evil men, Masons and non masons. The trouble is in the fact that they MUST help their brother, without question, when asked to do so.
I've lived the experience. I am not a mason. Only the victim of Freemasonry. Cops belong... Hells Angels belong. Maybe not all of them. But that doesn't matter. If you have a problem with a mason. You have a problem with all masons. Doesn't matter whether they like you are not. If their brother asks a favor. They do it. The reason is irrelevant.
They may not even like each other, but they are brothers nonetheless. This can be confusing to the rest of us, because we cannot make sense of a certain alliance between two people that seem to dislike each other.
Also, I must add. That brainwashing is a SLOW process. That one is brought into the MASON circle as a good man. Slowly, bit by bit, they are changed. To the point that an evil act is justified by "for the good of us all; the BIG picture".
Also, Masons don't just go out and beat people up. They enjoy cleverness to their evil doings. They get a "kick" out of clever killing.
For those of you who are masons,...I KNOW YOU BETTER THAN YOU KNOW YOURSELVES.
I say this from first hand experience. I have seen the MOST EVIL and vile acts. Those of which I could sit and talk about all day... but they are so grotesque, I am sure that most would not believe. So, what is the point.

reply to post by devilhisself


So you are content to spam this forum without any back up info?

reply to post by devilhisself




I have not read a rant like that on ATS in a while. Always a good laugh.

I'll tell you about the MASONS. Most of them are good people. That's how they recruit new members. They are looking for good men, to join their brotherhood.

This is true, Masonry seeks only good men to make better.

But the logic in your argument is flawed.. if we where evil people wouldn't we want other evil people in our ranks? Perhaps I must be missing something here..

But, there is evil at the core.

At the core? The core of what? What is the core? .. Is the core our basic teachings within the Blue Lodge? If so, how is it being a Master Mason I have never seen this evil? Our rituals can be read from a number of sources, so please, what is "evil" about it? If its not the BL, is it the Scottish Rite? If it is, being a 32º how is it I have not seen the evil there either? What is evil?

Be specific.

AND, thereare evil men, Masons and non masons.

If you mean, in general among us there are people with ill intentions I would agree. Does Masonry its self make people "evil" no. Does society? Er. No. Maybe. Who knows. But what does Masonry have to do with this again?

The trouble is in the fact that they MUST help their brother, without question, when asked to do so.

Not exactly. I would help who and when I can.. though I never thought of helping people as an evil act.. in my teachings anyways it is right and just to assist those who call on you.

If a brother needs something I can give without harm to my self, I would gladly give it. To not would be selfish. If a brother asks me to help him bury a body or rob a bank well obviously there would be a rather urgent call you the police

I am not sure what it is you think Masons ask of other Masons. I have never asked anyone for anything.

I've lived the experience.

How so, your not a Mason?

Only the victim of Freemasonry.

What specific act was done to YOU by a Lodge of Masons?

Cops belong... Hells Angels belong.

Some police officers do belong. Hells Angels? Ok.

Maybe not all of them. But that doesn't matter.

Isnt that the point though? You lack common sense..

If you have a problem with a mason. You have a problem with all masons.

No, that is not true at all. Where do you come up with that?

They may not even like each other, but they are brothers nonetheless. This can be confusing to the rest of us, because we cannot make sense of a certain alliance between two people that seem to dislike each other.

Setting aside perhaps petty differences and recognizing a common bond.

I don't know..

You may be right..

Sure sounds evil to me.

Also, I must add. That brainwashing is a SLOW process. That one is brought into the MASON circle as a good man. Slowly, bit by bit, they are changed. To the point that an evil act is justified by "for the good of us all; the BIG picture".

You know this from experience?

Or perhaps you know a brainwashed Mason your self?

How are we changed?
What changed us?
What aspect of Masonry did this to us?
Gosh, I don't know what to do.. to find out I have been hoodwinked all this time.

Also, Masons don't just go out and beat people up. They enjoy cleverness to their evil doings. They get a "kick" out of clever killing.

Hmm. Not always true. For instance, my lodge prefers old fashion bar fights for one, or gang style street fights. Ever see a group of 60 year old guys take down some punks with canes??

Ok, seriously.

Who have we killed and um, what "kick" do we get out of killing for I suppose "fun" ..

For those of you who are masons,...I KNOW YOU BETTER THAN YOU KNOW YOURSELVES.

Boy do I feel exposed. Tell me mate, whats my favorite color?

I say this from first hand experience. I have seen the MOST EVIL and vile acts. Those of which I could sit and talk about all day... but they are so grotesque, I am sure that most would not believe. So, what is the point.

I would personally love to hear some of these tales. I don't mind the grotesque.. hell man, I am a Freemason.. am I not supposed to get a "kick" out of grotesque acts upon another?

And don't be shy, please reply to my questions.. very curious here.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Take your views on conspiracies..... and simplify it 1000% and you MIGHT be close to the truth, as the real conspiracies are mundane, ordinary and hardly outright sinister in objective.

The P2 and the Illuminati were both very real conspiracies involving masonry.

The P2 is a very intriguing web of conspiracies involving the CIA and the Mafia. Most famously, it was involved in the Banco Ambrosiano scandal and the highly suspicious death of its chairman, “God’s Banker”, Roberto Calvi in 1982.

Gelli used the Lodge for 10 years under full blessing of The Grand Lodge of Italy, who were unaware of the Lodge’s illegal activities. Somewhere between 1974 and 1978 the P2 was expulsed, and the Lodge went black. (Irregular)

The P2 Lodge’s activities definitely qualify as sinister.

Members of the Bavarian Illuminati had infiltrated numerous Masonic lodges throughout Germany. (Prussia) However, their aims were hardly sinister. And their infiltration was more for recruiting like-minded individuals, than to subvert Freemasonry.

The Illuminati’s activities weren’t nefarious, but they were still conspiratorial.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Ok. Not sure what the hell your even talking about.

I thought you had (and were withholding from non-masons) an example from history about a group attempting to “take control of a Lodge and steer it in the right/wrong direction.”

A mutual friend assures me that your example is not anywhere on the scale of P2 or Illuminati. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I was simply curious that maybe I had miss an important event in Masonic history.

reply to post by ConspiracyNut23

The P2 is a very intriguing web of conspiracies involving the CIA and the Mafia. Most famously, it was involved in the Banco Ambrosiano scandal and the highly suspicious death of its chairman, “God’s Banker”, Roberto Calvi in 1982.

The P2 was not involved with Masonry. If the members thought them selves true Masons they where fooled.. their charter was revoked some years BEFORE the conspiracies even began. The lodge which the crimes originated where from an informal non recognized illigitimate lodge that had no connections with the Grand Orient of Italy.

Essentially it was a group of guys who got together with the title Masons but where never recognized as such and committed various levels of criminal activities that had, very little if any at all, involvment of the Grand Orient of Italy.

It was basically a rich and powerful club.

There are many of those.

They go by many names.

They still exist.

Gelli used the Lodge for 10 years under full blessing of The Grand Lodge of Italy

Learn your histories mate, the lodge was irregular and was expelled in 1976 by the Grand Orient of Italy.

Members of the Bavarian Illuminati had infiltrated numerous Masonic lodges throughout Germany.

True, but as you say it was hardly sinister. It also went more along the lines of a new ideology. Technically you could say Democrats and Republicans have infiltrated Masonic lodges because many members are members to either party.

I thought you had (and were withholding from non-masons) an example from history about a group attempting to “take control of a Lodge and steer it in the right/wrong direction.”

That has happened countless times in Masonic history.. any change is right or wrong, and there are always changes. In fact every year at the Grand Lodge Communication new Masonic codes are voted on that are, depending upon your political leaning, good or bad.

A mutual friend assures me that your example is not anywhere on the scale of P2 or Illuminati.

I am sure they wished they had such influence.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Learn your histories mate, the lodge was irregular and was expelled in 1976 by the Grand Orient of Italy.

Suspended is not expelled. Learn to follow links and quit being so rude.



[edit on 13/11/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

reply to post by ConspiracyNut23


Expelled.

When asked to be reinstated they moved their status from Expelled to Suspended.

Ironically the same thing is said in your Wiki link.

Originally posted by devilhisself
Those of which I could sit and talk about all day... but they are so grotesque, I am sure that most would not believe. So, what is the point.

We've heard everything from cross-continental stalking, to shape-shifting, to blood sacrifices, to exploding toilets.

Try us.

reply to post by Rockpuck

The P2 was not involved with Masonry.

This is a blatant lie! And the poster must know this, in direct violation of this site's TOS.

Ask yourself Rockpunk why the Grand Orient would vote to expulse an irregular lodge? Simple, because since 1877 the P2 had been a regular Lodge.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
Gelli used the Lodge for 10 years under full blessing of The Grand Lodge of Italy, who were unaware of the Lodges illegal activities.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Learn your histories mate, the lodge was irregular and was expelled in 1976 by the Grand Orient of Italy.

basic arithmetic.

In 1967, Brother Licio Gelli, who had been initiated into a lodge in Rome in 1965, was placed in virtual control of P2 by the Grand Master of the day.

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

So 1976-1967 = 9 years.

Expelled.
When asked to be reinstated they moved their status from Expelled to Suspended.

So then, he wasn’t “expelled” as you claimed, the final result was still a suspension.

Expulsion

It has been argued that the Grand Orient of Italy expelled Gelli and P2 in 1976.[7] In 1974 it was proponsed that P2 be erased by the Grand Orient of Italy, which was carried overwhelmingly. However in 1975 a warrant was issued for a new P2 lodge by the Grand Master. In 1976, The Grand Orient of Italy suspended, but did not expel, the lodge on Gelli's request. Gelli was still active in the Grand Orient's national affairs in 1978, financing the election of a Grand Master. In 1981 a masonic tribunal decided that the 1974 vote had meant that the lodge had already been erased and that the lodge had been illegal all along.[8]

en.wikipedia.org...

So officially, the P2 Lodge was still on the Grand Orient’s book until 1981 (when they finally decided that the 1974 decision stood, and the Grand Master had acted illegally)

Calvi was found dead in 1982, the Blologna Massacre happened in 1980. Does anyone believe that as soon as the P2’s charter was revoke they started committing atrocious organized crimes. Yet, the P2 remained squeaky clean until then?

Why would they even bother to try to expulse the P2 if no illegal /unmasonic activities had been committed?

But of course "The P2 was not involved with Masonry".

In 1877 the Grand Orient granted a warrant to a lodge in Rome called "Propaganda Massonica". This lodge was frequented by politicians and government officials from across Italy who were unable to attend their own lodges. Although its potential for masonic mischief was recognized, there is no evidence that any was forthcoming. The lodge was not on the Grand Orient's registers but operated as the Grand Master's own private Lodge, allowing for the initiation of members whose names would not therefore appear on the Grand Orient's rolls.

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

The bolded part is interesting. To anyone's knowledge on this board, did this ever happen anywhere else in regular masonry outside Italy? Or is it particuliar to the Propaganda lodge?


[edit on 13/11/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

reply to post by devilhisself


Their are online communities of anti-masonic people. They can organize and email eachother reports of what goes on in masonic lodges or post their reports on message boards. They could also publish their findings on web pages or even in magazines.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
The bolded part is interesting. To anyone's knowledge on this board, did this ever happen anywhere else in regular masonry outside Italy? Or is it particuliar to the Propaganda lodge?

Not to my knowledge.

Just on the wider issue of Italian freemasonry, it has since freemasonry began in Italy been 'somewhat on the wild side'. For many many years freemasonry in Italy, for the most part, has been regarded as irregular by mainstream masonic organizations, such as the UGLE. Today, the only recognized grand lodge in Italy is the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy.

The problem stems from the all pervasive nature of politics in Italy. God love 'em, they just can't keep their fingers out of pies. Everything is interlinked in Italy, from politics to religion to soccer and back to politics again. As long as someone makes a fast buck along the way no-one seems to mind. Hardly surprising then that freemasonry became corrupted. And equally hardly surprising that the regaular masonic world wanted nothing to do with them.

Was P2 bad? Yes. Was P2 masonic? About as masonic as these guys

reply to post by ConspiracyNut23

P2 or Propaganda Masonica Due Lodge in Italy founded in 1877