Proof we are all lying to ourselves

Im sorry but where did you hear bush say this ""The operatives planted the explosives high up so the people traped above could not escape"" I never heard him say this. and if its suppose to be in your video well its not

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Disclosed
and your pre-collapse evidence is.....

I have already showed you the photos and videos of what looks like thermite reactions and molten metals comming from the corner of the South tower.

How odd, the NIST report saw the liquid metals as well, and discussed it in their reports:

wtc.nist.gov...

11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.

Photographs, and NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

And please do not be immature about the firemen, we have been over this and you know the firemen only made it to the 78th floor not the impact floors.

So, are you saing now the 78th floor was NOT an impact floor? Just a couple pages back, you were saying the firemen were not finding fires there and it WAS an impact floor.

If you have no witnesses or evidence to thermite reactions happening on the impact floors, you have no evidence to prove your theory. You might as well say it was someones c4 explosive collection they brought for show and tell.....it doesnt matter that there is no proof.

Oh, and you have never been able to post any evidence to deabte my theory of the thermite reactions.

Wr cant debate evidence you never have provided. You have not once provided a witness seeing thermite reactions in person, on the impact floors. Without that proof...everything is speculation. Zero evidence = zero things to debate.

In case you can not figure it out. Griff was talking about the photo you posted was intensified.

Do you know what intensified means in photography? I'd like to see what YOU think it means.


[edit on 9-11-2007 by Disclosed]

NIST Writer: "NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires."

NIST Proofreader: Maybe we should insert at this point our evidence that confirms the temperatures actually did reach our expectations...

NIST Writer: well I did write this in another part: "More than 170 areas were examined on the perimeter column panels ... Only three locations had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 °C."

NIST Proofreader: Well that won't work, that has to do with the perimeter columns.

NIST Writer: But the molten material was right next to the perimeter columns.

NIST Proofreader: Yes, but that's still below our expected temperatures.

NIST Writer: well how about this, "Based on the pre-collapse photographic evidence, the microstructures of steels known to have been exposed to fire were characterized. These microstructures show no evidence of exposure to temperatures above 600 °C for any significant time."

NIST Proofreader: That won't do it, that shows what we didn't find, it doesn't actually state what evidence we found... plus that's talking about the steel again...

NIST Writer: How about this?:"Similar results, i.e., limited exposure if any above 250 °C, were found for two core columns from the fire-affected floors of the towers."... uh, I guess that won't work either....

NIST Proofreader: Don't we have anything we can put in there?

NIST Writer: Listen, I can talk about this all day, but I've got 30 more pages to write...can we just agree the fire was HOT and move on.

NIST Proofreader: okay... besides, who's gonna read this anyway?

[edit on 9-11-2007 by NIcon]

I'd like to know how molten metal (aluminum if it was the plane) could flow up from the sagging floors to come out of the facade.

How can NIST claim the floors were sagging and then claim that the molten aluminum from the plane is what we see dripping out the facade? Can someone explain that one to me?

Originally posted by Disclosed
So, are you saing now the 78th floor was NOT an impact floor? Just a couple pages back, you were saying the firemen were not finding fires there and it WAS an impact floor.

Please read carefully and try to understand.

The 78th floor was just at the bottom of the impact area where the lower wing hit. I was stating the firemen did not find any large infernos or jet fuel fires that you kept stating were there.

Please try to follow along. I am making things as simple as i can. In the video i have shown , besides the molten matals you also see what appears to be thermite reactions.

I am still waiting for you to show me evidence that there could not be thermite reactions.

For the "it was molten aluminum mixed with burning organics" crowd. Including NIST:

www.youtube.com...

For an experiment trying to cause a "natural" thermite reaction:

www.scribd.com...

Well done Griff.

Here is more information on molten aluminum.

www.firehouse.com...

Molten aluminum has a 4-digit UN identification number of 9260. When referenced in the ERG it refers to guide 77 for hazards of the material. Guide 77 was an addition to the 1993 version of the ERG. Molten aluminum is the only material that refers to this guide. The guide indicates that the material is above 1300� F, and will react violently with water, which may cause an explosion, and release a flammable gas. The molten material in contact with combustible materials may cause ignition, if the molten material is above the ignition temperature of the combustible material. For example, gasoline has an average ignition temperature of around 800� F. Diesel fuel has an average ignition temperature of around 400� F, depending on the blend, and additives. In an accident gasoline or diesel fuel could be spilled. The molten material could be an ignition source for the gasoline or diesel fuel if it came in contact. When contacting concrete on a roadway, or at a fixed facility, molten materials could cause spalling and small pops. This could cause pieces of concrete to become projectiles. Contact with the skin would cause severe thermal burns. There is no personnel protective clothing that would adequately protect responders from contact with molten materials.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Please read carefully and try to understand.

The 78th floor was just at the bottom of the impact area where the lower wing hit. I was stating the firemen did not find any large infernos or jet fuel fires that you kept stating were there.

You stated this....this is your exact quote:

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
And please do not be immature about the firemen, we have been over this and you know the firemen only made it to the 78th floor not the impact floors.

The fireman only made it to the 78th floor not the impact floors.

You stated that...."not the impact floors"

your words....

How can anyone "follow along" when you change your statements?

[edit on 9-11-2007 by Disclosed]

Originally posted by Disclosed
You stated that...."not the impact floors"

Yes the 78th floor was not where the airframe impacted. Where the aluminum from the aircraft would have been.

Is it really that hard to understand?

reply to post by ULTIMA1


So, since it wasnt an impact floor, as you have just stated, it really isnt a big surpise that there were only numerous small fires, correct?

Molten anything is explosive when combined with water - particularly when submerged. This happened, if I remember correctly, down in Dallas at a diecasting plant that my dad's diecasting plant did business with. A worker pulled a 'stupid' and left a coke can sitting on some aluminum bars that were getting ready to be placed into the furnace. They didn't use a dry-hearth and simply 'plopped' the bars in the furnace (a dry hearth uses an angled plate that heats the metal to its melting point more slowly, but prevents things like condensation that collects in the micro-cracks in the metal from causing popping and prevents all kinds of molten hell from flying back at you). The resulting explosion leveled the whole complex (it was a pretty big complex).

So, children, leave the furnace alone - and keep an eye on your coffee cup.

Of course, I'd be more concerned about the titanium in the engine and magnesium in the landing gear catching fire..... only way to put those out is to bury them or deep-six 'em. Spray all the PKP and AFFF on them you want - they'll keep burning and smile.

Although, I have to say, I'm not precisely sure what direction this debate has taken since I took leave....

I often wondered what the effects would be of the building being a giant 'heatsink'. There's a few problems, though. First - the spray-on fireproofing nullifies a lot of it - aside from the fact that steel is not the greatest thermal conductor around - it's not like copper - which rapidly whisks heat way to its extremities. Then, although the design calls for welded construction - time constraints led to the use of bolts in a number of areas as opposed to welds. Had the structure been welded - it MIGHT not have collapsed. However, the damage would have been irrepairable - so the towers would have been dismantled.

www.ponderon.com...

Comforting, huh? I think I find the fact that accountants get the final word in engineering decisions more frightening than any alleged government conspiracy. They can conspire all they want to (or not conspire all they want to) - I can shoot at them if the problem gets too bad - I can't shoot at a building that's falling down on my head because an accountant said to use a 1/2" bolt instead of the recommended 2/3" bolt (which does make a difference - especially in the longevity of the construction). Or, why waste the time and money on welding that structure when we can bolt two together in the same time to weld that one?

EDIT: Had PPK instead of PKP - PKP is a nice purple powder that used to be used in firefighting for electrical and liquid-accelerant fires prior to the adoption and advent of CO2 and AFFF (Aqueus Film Forming Foam).

[edit on 9-11-2007 by Aim64C]

Originally posted by Disclosed
So, since it wasnt an impact floor, as you have just stated, it really isnt a big surpise that there were only numerous small fires, correct?

I stated it was were the wing went in the building, not the main airframe. So now you agree with me that the official story was wrong when they stated there was a big inferno and jet fuel fires ?

Originally posted by Aim64C
Of course, I'd be more concerned about the titanium in the engine and magnesium in the landing gear catching fire..... only way to put those out is to bury them or deep-six 'em. Spray all the PKP and AFFF on them you want - they'll keep burning and smile.

Well just think about what could happen if you had molten aluminum, jet fuel, titanium, magnesium, and oxygen tanks all comming into contact.

Oh i forgot tungsten.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Disclosed
So, since it wasnt an impact floor, as you have just stated, it really isnt a big surpise that there were only numerous small fires, correct?

I stated it was were the wing went in the building, not the main airframe. So now you agree with me that the official story was wrong when they stated there was a big inferno and jet fuel fires ?

You said yourself...fireman did not make it to the impact floors.

Do you want me to link your quote again? I can easily do it.

Which is it, ULTIMA1...fireman made it to the impact floors or not?

If they were at the impact floors, seems they would notice thermite reactions. Why didnt any of the firefighters report thermite reactions? Did they report melted aluminum either? Wouldnt there have to be melted aluminum on those floors for your thermite theory? WHy didnt they report that?

[edit on 9-11-2007 by Disclosed]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Well just think about what could happen if you had molten aluminum, jet fuel, titanium, magnesium, and oxygen tanks all comming into contact.

Oh i forgot tungsten.

Fire.... HOT fire.... that doesn't just melt steel - burns THROUGH steel, concrete, and anything else, given enough time.

And aluminum in airframes doesn't exactly melt. Much of the thin skin simply vaporizes. Composites, where present, burn (and there are composites in a number of older aircraft - particularly fiberglass and some forms of carbon fiber). You're left with not a whole lot of aluminum. Aircraft are marvels of engineering in that they use geometry for strength as opposed to simply making more metal.

Although most military aircraft, even, are under-engineered (in my opinion) - they are still marvels of engineering.

So, melted piles of metal could be iron/steel, or could be aluminum. Although aluminum doesn't melt like steel does - especially in 'natural' incidents (fire).

Although I like how we disregard the construction of the WTC being that it was bolted as opposed to welded (this is a HUGE difference in the overall structural integrity).

Originally posted by Disclosed You said yourself...fireman did not make it to the impact floors.

Do i have to draw you a picture, OK.

The plane hit the South tower at an angle. The lower wing hit around the 78th floor. Now my statement is that the 78th was not where the main airframe impacted the building, its where the wing hit the building. Do you understand what i am trying to say so far?

As i stated before the firemen made it to the floor under the impact area. They stated their were small isolated fires, not the big inferno and jet fuel fires you kept stating were there.

Here is drawing for you to get an idea since you seem to have a hard time understanding the explanation.

i114.photobucket.com...

reply to post by ULTIMA1


So they made it to the floors UNDER the impact area....oooh. So you then have no idea of the size of the fires on the actual impact floors. No firefighters able to analyze them?

Why even mention the "small isolated fires" on the 78th floor then? People ask about the fires on the IMPACT floors....and you mention fire conditions on a non impact floor? Might as well tell me the condition of the 32nd floor...it wasnt an impact floor either....and is just as relevant.

Also, if you had no firefighters checking impact floors, then you are just GUESSING there were thermite reactions. No evidence. Zero.

Wow, thats a pretty solid theory there, ULTIMA1. Have some swamp land you are selling too?

Originally posted by Disclosed
Wow, thats a pretty solid theory there, ULTIMA1.

You mean just like your theory of the big inferno and jet fuel fires below the impact area.

I brought up the firmen under the impact area to prove your theory of the inferno and jet fuel running down and causing fires false. So stop whinning about the impact area and move on.

Oh, i have more evidence of thermite reactions then you had of the inferno and jet fuel fires.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


So, the firemen treating the victims of the jet fuel fireball that shot down the elevator shaft and blew the doors of the elevators, in one of the lobbys....and those victims. They dont count, right?

Originally posted by Disclosed
So, the firemen treating the victims of the jet fuel fireball that shot down the elevator shaft and blew the doors of the elevators, in one of the lobbys....and those victims. They dont count, right?

Please watch the following videos so you can get some idea of what happened in the basement. You know you really should learn how to do research.

Following videos are of William Rodriguez lecture about what happened in the basments.

www.liveleak.com...

www.liveleak.com...






[edit on 9-11-2007 by ULTIMA1]