cemtrail video from my deck...insane!!

Originally posted by Copernicus

Essan: So there was reports from the 70's discussing weather or not contrails was affecting the weather or not... yeah, so? What bearing does that have on people seeing chemtrails since the 90's? You are trying to argue that since contrails might have affected the weather, the chemtrails we see are also contrails because they might have the same effect?

No, I'm arguing that scientific papers written in 1970 describe exactly the same phenomena as you now call a chemtrail - aircraft contrails persisting and spreading out to cover the sky.

Either what you call a chemtrail is not a chemtrail. Or they have been observed by scientists for decades (without anyone every discovering that they're laid deliberately).

reply to post by Copernicus


Copernicus --

This is a "burden of proof" issue.

The OP has made a claim. His claim can only be backed-up by his video and his eyewitness account. The video has been rebutted by others claiming that it is not uncommon for planes to lay down a trail such as this -- and infact it is an everyday occurance and has been like this for decades. His eyewitness account regarding the persistance of the trail has been rebutted through the diaries and anecdotal information of WW2 pilots who returned from missions after several hours and followed there old, spreadout contrails home. And persistence and spreading of these trails has been known for many decades to create artificial cloud cover and effect that weather.

So the OP's proof for this particular episode of chemical spraying has been rebutted (and some would say successfully rebutted, but this is for each of us to decide, not just me.)

My point is that this discussion board is working the way it should -- The OP provides his evidence, others who wish to "deny ignorance" will provide evidence that counters his. In my opinion, it is not enough to say "The OP and others knows what he saw and They aren't stupid." That argument fails because I can simply counter with "I know what I see, and I, too, am not stupid." This only creates a stalemate and does not address the issue with any hard evidence.

Just like in the U.S. justice system, "The burden of proof lies with the accuser."

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


How are private citizens supposed to proof something that is not being acknowledged to exist by the Air Force or government? Its called "covering up" for a reason you know.

The documents concerning this are classified. How do you suggest a private citizen gets their hands on them?

Please realize that if a government wants to cover something up, all you can do is try and spread information about it. You have no chance of getting justice through the justice system since they require proof, and proof is classified.


[edit on 29-10-2007 by Copernicus]

Originally posted by Copernicus

How are private citizens supposed to proof something that is not being acknowledged to exist by the Air Force or government? Its called "covering up" for a reason you know.

Does it not occur to you that if it look like a duck, flies like a duck, quacks like a duck and, when eaten. tastes like a duck .... it might just possibly be a duck?

If you think it's something else, you need to offer some reason for supposing it not to be a duck. So far no-one has provided that evidence.

That's not to say that chemical spraying - or plans for chemical spraying - is not real, just that you've been misinformed as to what such spraying would look like.

Originally posted by Essan

That's not to say that chemical spraying - or plans for chemical spraying - is not real, just that you've been misinformed as to what such spraying would look like.

At least you are now acknowledging the POSSIBILITY of these crimes against humanity.
MAYBE you are not as stubborn as I thought!
A step in the right direction.

Originally posted by Essan
Does it not occur to you that if it look like a duck, flies like a duck, quacks like a duck and, when eaten. tastes like a duck .... it might just possibly be a duck?

If you think it's something else, you need to offer some reason for supposing it not to be a duck. So far no-one has provided that evidence.

Yes, this does NOT look like a duck, flies like a duck, quacks like a duck and so on. Maybe you did not bother to watch the video I provided? The clouds being shaped from the spraying does not in any way, shape or form look like natural clouds.

We ARE offering reasons for supporting it not being a duck, you just choose to ignore it.

PLEASE watch the video. It shows letters sent to the EPA back and forth for years, with them denying it, with them ignoring samples taken and analyzed by independent biologists etc.


[edit on 29-10-2007 by Copernicus]

reply to post by Copernicus


I thought we were discussing Ralph Nader's video? The one mentioned in the thread title?

reply to post by Clearskies


I'm a sceptic. Therefore unless proven otherwise, I'm open to all possibilities

Indeed, I suppose I'm even open to the possibility that the 'authorities' mimic persistent contrails, and only carry out the process when persistent contrails would be expected to occur, using mostly commercial aircraft following normal flightpaths, in order to carry out chemical spraying without anyone noticing Although I'm unaware of any evidence for this. It does, however, seem the only possible way that what are described as chemtrails can in fact be chemtrails.

Sometimes they get sloppy.
But I have even noticed no trails behind planes where I STILL get the
searing headaches and nausea, shortly after they pass over.
Then they subside, only to return with the next plane.....

One time(about a year ago), I caught a recognizable whiff of the powderish 'stuff' that IS sprayed, and it smelled like "Seven dust",
a powder pesticide!
This spraying started en force where I live only after 2005.


[edit on 29-10-2007 by Clearskies]

reply to post by Essan


I think your comments show that you are intentionally ignoring what im saying and are trying to continue the charade. Well, Ill let you continue. I trust that people are intelligent enough to see right through it.



[edit on 29-10-2007 by Copernicus]

reply to post by Copernicus


And I would humbly suggest that your comments are aimed at distracting attention away from the original purpose of this discussion: which is about a specific observation of alleged chemtrails.

We have already had the OP refuse to answer a simple question which may have helped prove the case one way of the other.

I'm not sure that this thread serves any valid purpose now, other than to perpetuate the 'it's a duck' 'no it's not' 'yes it is' 'no it's not' argument.

Has anyone gone to this site, WeatherWars!, and clicked on a pilot's view and LOOKED at those photos???

Those are not crop sprayers......
We're BREATHING some noxious stuff.

Essan, what do you think???

chemtrails...
you need to research the biological warfare program in the 50's
chemtrails were used to test aerial dispersal methods
not sure if their still being used, if they are we woulnd't hear about it
they do exist, and aircraft also make normal contrials, you never know which i guess

Dear God people, just examine the characteristics of water and heat. A plane flying at altitude is in cold air, right? Ok. Then the hot air from the engines heats the air that the plane in flying thru to the point that water vapor condenses around the molecules of heated air and makes a trail in the sky. So far so good.

Then, in a matter of seconds, or a minute at most, the contrails disappear. Why? Because the colder air surrounding the contrails quickly chills the molecules again, and they return to their previosu temps, and disappear from sight. If you have ever seen a jet with a contrail, usually the contrail disappears behind the jet, within a few miles.

ONLY chemtrails can remain after the cooling period, whioch is almost immediate. Water vapor CANNOT hold temperatures independently when in the upper atmosphere!! Impossible!! What on earth would the chemtrail deniers attribute the contrails to? How could anyone explain how water molecules could remain warm for long periods of time while surrounded by cold air? What is keeping the ' contrails ' warm? If it is water vapor, like a contrail, then there are only water molecules to deal with, and they will cool almost immediately after the jet passes.

If it is NOT simply water molecules, then the scenes we all see are explained easily: Either they have heavier elements in them, something besides water, that allows for the continued and lingering trails to be seen, ot they do not, simple. Contrails are only water vapor: They CANNOT linger longer than a few minutes at best, and they CANNOT 'turn into ' vast cloud cover. It is not physically possible to explain HOW the water molecules are being kept heated in a cold and surrounding atmosphere.

It is easy to explain chemtrails tho: they are OBVIOUSLY made up of elements that can remain suspended for long periods, and are NOT dependent on temperature for their existence. That is a fact. There is no way that simple water made contrails can exist after a short time: It cannot be shown how to keep the water particles warm enough to sustain the condensation effect and subsequent appearance from the ground of trails.

So, you believers in CONTRAILS ONLY, please explain what keeps the ' contrails ' warm enough to remain since they are being surrounded by cold air and would no doubt return to their previous temps in a minute or two. Temperature is the entire story of contrails, and chemicals and elements are the story behind chemtrails, simple. No other explanation makes any sense scientifically or logically.

I watch the sky often, and picking contrials out is easy: they go away, usually after the jet is halfway across the sky. Chemtrails do NOT go away and linger and make cloud banks and strange colors and leave residue behind in some cases. But until someone can explain keeping air warm in a freezing cold atmosphere I will believe the truth: Chjemtrails are real, and contrails are too. but they each have specific characteristics and abilities, each easily observed.

reply to post by ralph nader


I can say what I said and not got warned or baned because I didnt do anything but state that what you claimed was wrong and therefore made you look stupider than you probley are. I am not doing it to insult you it was a mere question in why you would say something without the correct knowledge. Also, for your information, if you dont want people insulting you dont give them reason to. By the way I am here to speak my mind and I am sorry that I angered you or made you feel like I was trying to upset you, I dont feel like upseting anyone.

I have seen many aircraft trails which have stayed in the air for a long period of time, see it all the time here from test flights. I don't automatically think "Oh they must be dumping chemicals in the air!". I was friends with the Commander of the base near me and friends with a lot of people that worked there (Aircraft mechanics etc), never heard of this chem thing. Sounds like another thing that people want to be paranoid about, instead of looking at the facts. Started to watch that video... American conspiracy video again, why am I not surprised. The guy even tries to sub consciously tell you what you have to think when watching the video "people will tell you this is rubbish".

reply to post by eyewitness86


Essan has provided scientific proof has to how this happens. He has provided such detail and so much of it...really, he should write a small book on this

Nobody has been able to dispute the information he has provided. I suggest you do a search on his most recent thread that he started, read it and dispute it. He started a thread on this topic for the sole purpose of "us" disputing the scientific info he provided!


Here is the thread! Good luck!
Chemtrails: Debunking



[edit on 29-10-2007 by greeneyedleo]

reply to post by greeneyedleo


Thks

As someone with a keen interest in meteorology and meteorological phenomena - and, indeed someone with a large number of friends who are professional meteorologists, I think it behoves on me to explain what it is people are seeing.

Unfortunately it seems some folk only believe what they want to believe and conveniently ignore or dismiss anything to the contrary.

As i keep saying - I don't dispute the possibility of chemical spraying (although I've yet to see any convincing argument as to what is being sprayed, how or why) - I just know that what most people claim to be chemtrails are nothing of the sort. And no-one seems able or willing to disprove my explanation .... they just shift direction to avoid accepting the truth.



[edit on 29-10-2007 by Essan]

O.K. I live in the flight path of a major international airport. One some days (mostly in the winter, lol) there are trails behind the jets. TONS of trails are left in the sky, because they last for a very long time around here. By the end of the day, it looks like a freaking crossword puzzle up there, lol.

So, because it is in the flight path of a major airport, there would not be unnecessary plane traffic floating around spraying nefarious agents. The planes are coming and/or going from the port. Two of my best friends are mechanical for two different airlines there. I have been to both of their places of employment on business and hung out.

Now, common sense says if the shear amount of trails I see up there are chemical agents, that damn near every plane going in a out of this place must be quipped with super secret nozzles, tanks, and support personnel to refill and service the,m. Multiply this by hundreds of airports nationwide and you have a conspiracy that is impossible to keep quiet. Use you heads here, people.

Chemtrails, and the scale most woos think they are on, are not real. Yes, there has been limited, controlled scientific spraying of chemical agents for various studies, but they are well documented, public, and far from widespread.

It's call COMMON SENSE, LOGIC and REASON. Apply that to the stupid chemtrail myth and it FALLS APART.

Deny Ignorance, don't encourage it.

reply to post by Essan


hey andy,im back, geez..i sleep, work and come home and all you guys
are still at it.crazy.i dont know why my video has drawn so much debate, you guys pick apart everything,there are far better examples out there,and its good to see your open to the possibility of chemtrails.i headr about your thread, whats the title?i want to check it out.peace.