Anti-war nations 'took bribes' before war began.

Originally posted by Shoktek
France taking bribes from saddam?? Sounds similar to US attempts to give france a bad name simply because they dont support bush's war of terror. If there were really evidence of this I suspect it would be in many more media sources as it is quite a serious allegation.

It's just the begining. Anwyay, thinking that France, Germany, Russia and China were against the liberation of Irak for some humanitarians reasons is a mistake.

Money money money...Oups, I mean " oil oil oil..."

Hey seekerof...we both have different viewpoints. But there is one main difference between us..

I could post up all sorts of "anti-war" "anti-bush" fabricated internet articles that I run across. This is not how I want to get my point through. I only say something if it is based on actual fact, and documented with multiple reliable sources. I dont simply post articles that agree with my viewpoints, simply because I hope or want them to be true. People shouldnt change their viewpoints on that, I dont want to mislead anyone like you. Passing this stuff off as fact is exactly the way the people YOU ARE DEFENDING have been acting. Making allegations with nothing to prove it. So it fits you to be on "that" side, because you are similar to them. People can disagree with me all they want, but Im not going to resort to using articles just because they look nice and agree with me...I dont operate like that.

The FACTS ARE: Bush went to Iraq in order to get weapons of mass destruction. Bush has not delivered these weapons. Bush is now trying to back out of the lies used to go to Iraq.

Many people are publicly speaking out against Bush's war now...it is funny that there are still those who try to justify the war by churning out more and more allegations....what will it be next? First we're out to get the "terrorists", then its "weapons of mass destruction"...hmm, people are catching on to those lies, lets make something even better up! I know, bribes from Saddam!! People already hate the guy, surely theyll believe us over him...

Seekerof, you should consider becoming a lobbyist for the bush administration, they need more people like you if they hope to keep confusing and misleading the public.

Shotek, you can justify your position just as I justify mine.....but facts are indeed facts, aren't they?
Please feel free to investigate and dig on those names and you will certainly find out "facts" that you may not want to read or bother connecting them to.

I'm currently breaking between classes and certainly not infront of my 'home' computer with the information that I have bookmarked at hand, but when I get the chance today, if, then I will galdly begin pointing out some "facts" on those names to you.

You are and have challenged MEMRI, you challenge a number of other "facts" and then counter with how the was was unjustified?
Again, to me "justification" is moot to this....what is relevant is the names and their affiliations to those nations and movements that cried "NO war" and the influences that turned UN votes.
Justification or illegial was meaningless to me in this discussion/topic...as indicated by my response to heelstone in that what one percieves or believes to be right or wrong is merely objective and subjective reasoning, none of bear any fruit to this particular discussion but to drag it away from its original intent.
The intent was those names and 'how' and 'who' they influenced and their connections to the UN, National leaders, and organizations that promoted and cried that the war was wrong/unjustified, etc.

Side Note:
You folks had no problems using David Kays statements in regards to Iraq having no substantial WMD's but then fail to use that Mr. David Kay, along with many, stated that the war was justified and merited.....how ironic!

I'll address this further when I get home and can provide more.



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 29-1-2004 by Seekerof]

Okay seekerof, I will be waiting for these facts that you say you have to be posted. I am also not "countering" your information with the war being unjustified, I was simply saying that if this information were true, it wouldn't justify the war...which is what you are trying to get at. I would really like to see actual facts of anything you have been describing...here are some examples...

I dont want to see:

"According to unnamed Iraqi officials, these weapons programs have been hidden for a long time, and have the potential of great destruction if used. They have been seen by witnesses...."

Rather, something like this would be fact:

"US Soldiers are rejoicing today as an underground biological weapons lab was raided, and the weapons sent back to the United States for further inspection by qualified experts and military leaders..."


so instead of simply listing names of people who took bribes from saddam with nothing to back this information....how about seeing some actual records of these money transactions..

I will endeavor to avoid such occurances, if they can be helped, Shotek.


regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof

Side Note:
You folks had no problems using David Kays statements in regards to Iraq having no substantial WMD's but then fail to use that Mr. David Kay, along with many, stated that the war was justified and merited.....how ironic!

I'll address this further when I get home and can provide more.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 29-1-2004 by Seekerof]

I saw David Kay on Nightline last night. I'm sorry, but he was so full of shiZit. Sez this but then means that. He's a little yes man who couldn't find the big prize. now he's doing his best to spin it the way the white house needs him to. I could barely even listen to him. You could tell even Koppel thought he was full of it.

Irregardless ECK, the man is unwavering in his story, just as unwavering when he presented his Iraq Survey Group report. He has been the most consistent of all that have spoken so far.


Ok, back to the names.
For starters, we have:

"Great Britain: George Galloway received 1 million barrels."

Here's the dish on British MP Mr. Galloway:

"Saddam's little helper"
www.telegraph.co.uk.../opinion/2003/04/22/dl2201.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2003/04/22/ixoplead.html

Excerpt:

"It doesn't get much worse than this. George Galloway is Britain's most active and visible peace campaigner. The Labour MP for Glasgow Kelvin did not just oppose the recent campaign against Saddam Hussein; he lobbied equally aggressively against the first Gulf war, and � during the years in between � for an end to sanctions."

"The documents: contacts, money, oil and the need for anonymity"
www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2003/04/22/ndocs22.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/04/22/ixnewstop.html

"Galloway was in Saddam's pay, say secret Iraqi documents"
www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2003/04/22/ngall22.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/04/22/ixnewstop.html



Need more on British MP Mr. "Anti-War" Galloway....just plug George Galloway in...an abundance of information can be found in relation to his opposition to the sanctions, the end to the sanctions, ANSWER, and anti-war stance in regards to Iraq.

Besides British MP Galloways connections to another "anti-war" hawk: US Congressman Jim McDermott.

"'Baghdad' Jim McDermott Took Cash From Saddam Ally"
www.newsmax.com.../5/1/121213


That brings us to:

"Shaker Al-Khafaji,the pro-Saddam chairman of the 17th conference of Iraqi expatriates, received 1 million barrels."

Mr. Al-Khafaji is the very same gentleman that accompanied Congressman McDermott and Mr. Bonier to Baghdad. He is the SAME gentleman that gave Mr. Scott Ritter $400,000 to make his 'documentary'. The same gentleman that got Mr. Scott Ritter an audience with Saddam Hussein. The SAME gentleman that has of 3/31/2003 $1,000 to Senator and presidential candidate John Kerry..............
More?

"Saddam's Cash
From the May 5, 2003 issue: And the journalists and politicians he bought with it."
www.weeklystandard.com...

Excerpts: (From page 2 of 2)

"One of those "Saddam friends" is Shakir al-Khafaji, an Iraqi-American businessman from Detroit. Since 1992, al-Khafaji has served as president of the regime-backed Expatriate Conferences, held in Baghdad every other year. The government provided subsidized travel for Iraqis living outside of the country.....

Al-Khafaji first came to public notice after revelations that he gave former U.N. weapons inspector Scott Ritter $400,000 to produce a film that criticized the United States for its role in the inspection process. Al-Khafaji, who is listed as a "senior executive producer" of the film, arranged meetings for Ritter with high-level officials in Saddam's government, a feat New York Times magazine writer Barry Bearak found "impressive." Ritter had previously been an outspoken critic of Saddam Hussein, and issued dire warnings about the status of the Iraqi dictator's weapons of mass destruction. His sudden flip--he is now a leading apologist for Saddam's regime--and revelations about Ritter's 2001 arrest for soliciting sex with minors have fueled speculation about the nature of his relationship with al-Khafaji.

Al-Khafaji has long claimed that he cares only about the Iraqi people, an assertion too preposterous even for Ritter, who told THE WEEKLY STANDARD in 2001 that his patron was "openly sympathetic with the regime in Baghdad." That stands to reason. The Falcon Trading Group, a company that al-Khafaji founded in 1993 in Johannesburg, South Africa, has done nearly $70 million of business with Saddam's regime.

Al-Khafaji told Baghdad Radio on June 14, 2000, that he hoped to arrange a delegation so that members of the U.S. Congress could "get acquainted with the Iraqi people's suffering as a result of the unjust embargo clamped on it." He got his wish two years later, when he accompanied Reps. Jim McDermott, Jim Thompson, and David Bonior to Baghdad last fall.

McDermott, in particular, caused quite a fuss when in a September 29 appearance on ABC's "This Week" from Baghdad, he claimed, "The president of the United States will lie to the American people in order to get us into this war." Moments later, despite 12 years of evidence that the Iraqi regime had lied about its weapons program, McDermott said, "I think you have to take the Iraqis on their face value.".....

On October 25, McDermott received a check for $5,000 from Shakir al-Khafaji. The money, first reported by Amy Keller in Roll Call, had been deposited in an account for the McDermott Legal Expense Trust, a fund the congressman set up to pay legal bills in a lawsuit brought against him by Rep. John Boehner. (In 1996, McDermott had released to the media the transcript of a phone conversation between Boehner and Newt Gingrich, taped by a Florida couple.)

No one has accused McDermott of being a mouthpiece for Saddam Hussein simply for financial reasons. Indeed, McDermott has been saying stupid things for years with no evidence anyone has paid him to do so. A spokesman for McDermott says he "doesn't know off the top of [his] head" whether McDermott has plans to return the money."


Want to confirm this more; want more information on Mr. Shaker Al-Khafaji? Just type his name into any search engine.


As for Mr Samir Vincent:

"Samir Vincent received 10.5 million barrels. In 2000, Vincent, an Iraqi-born American citizen who has lived in the U.S. since 1958, organized a delegation of Iraqi religious leaders to visit the U.S. and meet with former president Jimmy Carter."

Mr. Samir Vincent, on 3/4/2000, gave $1,000+ to Tom Campbell. Who is Tom Campbell? This is him: Republican Tom Campbell....the same individual that said this:

"REP. TOM CAMPBELL, (R) California: We are at war, and Congress has not declared that, and it's unconstitutional"
"WAR ON THE FLOOR"
www.pbs.org...


To be continued.....in next thread. Got more.


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 29-1-2004 by Seekerof]

Continued:

Then we get to this:

"Former French Interior Minister Charles Pasqua received 12 million barrels."

Mr. Charles Pasqua and his connections:
"Social Network Diagram of Charles Pasqua"
www.namebase.org...

www.namebase.org...

Doing a name search on Charles Pasqua will reveal alot more including that he is France's representative in the European Parliment to the European Union.
www.google.co.kr...:NWkiZBiLhC0J:www.the-elected.com/showMember/470+%22Charles+Pasqua%22&hl=ko&ie=UTF-8

Of course, as par for a Frenchman, Charles Pasqua denies these allegations, as does Patrick Maugein, who is head of International Soco/Trafigura company :
www.lefigaro.fr... (Translator required)

Patrick Maugein:

"Patrick Maugein of the Trafigura company received 25 million barrels."

Soco International deals in what? This: Oil and Gases.
www.socointernational.co.uk...

More on Mr. Patrick Maugein:

"INTELLIGENCE ONLINE # 435 - 29/08/2002"
www.intelligenceonline.com...
Look three names down, click and join to read.
Very interesting read at that.....
Seems that Mr. Patrick Maugein appears to have considerable influence with president Jacques Chirac.

But back to the Charles Pasqua 'connection':
Please note the names and one in particular: CHIRAC JACQUES.
Well, well........Good ole' Jacque rears his frog head.
Then on top of that:

"Iraqi govt. papers: Saddam bribed Chirac"
www.washtimes.com...


Then we have:

"Canada: Arthur Millholland, president and CEO of the Calgary-based Oilexco company, received 1 million barrels of oil."

"`You can't ignore what you see' "
www.geocities.com.../iraqinfo/sanctions/sarticles5/ignoresee.html

"OILMAN TO LEAD MPS ON TOUR OF IRAQ"
www.casi.org.uk...
(Scroll down 4-5 articles to read on)


And Russian President Putin's crap is so obvious, I wasted little to no time on him......

And finally the matter of "Oil Coupons/Vouchers":
healingiraq.blogspot.com...

"2-Rus Naft Ambix - Azakov (Russian presidential office)/ 86.9 million (2 million of them to Russian ambassador in Baghdad)"


Anti-war, wanted sanctions removed, pro-Saddam....please, feel free to 'dig' on the names and piece the puzzle...and one will see the obvious reasons for the currently divided votes on the use of force against Iraq.



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 29-1-2004 by Seekerof]

Here is the "mainstream news" coverage you were looking for. abcnews.go.com...

Jan. 29 � ABCNEWS has obtained an extraordinary list that contains the names of prominent people around the world who supported Saddam Hussein's regime and were given oil contracts as a result.

Awful lot of coincidences if you ask me...



[Edited on 30-1-2004 by Fry2]

Latest and report confirmed as "authentic":

"TREASURY PROBES SADDAM'S OIL PALS"
Link:
www.nypost.com...

Excerpt"

"January 31, 2004 -- WASHINGTON - The Treasury Department yesterday opened an investigation into Iraq's growing oil bribery scandal, in which 270 prominent politicians and organizations around the world are accused of receiving sweetheart oil deals from Saddam Hussein.
The probe was launched after an Iraqi State Oil Ministry list of beneficiaries of the lucrative contracts - that included the president of Indonesia, a controversial anti-war British politician, two French officials and even the Russian Orthodox Church - was published in a Baghdad newspaper this week and confirmed to be authentic by officials of the new Iraqi government."

Seemingly, with the Treasury becoming involved, they will probably investigate those that recieved "bribes"/monies from those overseas that sought to bribe or influence American politics and politicians....
Personally, the more I read on this the more I understand 'why' and 'how' the anti-war movement and supporters howled: "No war (blood) for Oil"....they really were implying that going to "war" would take away that "Oil"...


"FRENCH FOR BRIBERY"
Link:
www.nypost.com...

Exceprt:

"But already the real reason behind much of the international opposition to the war is becoming clearer.

And it comes as no surprise."



regards
seekerof

Latest and report confirmed as "authentic":

There is no Iraqi government. There is an American Puppet Regime in Iraq.

Saddam was more trustworthy.

Exactly...of course its just another great opportunity to smear france because they didnt support the war. Need to see some real facts about this speculation.

[Edited on 31-1-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Shoktek
Exactly...of course its just another great opportunity to smear france because they didnt support the war. Need to see some real facts about this speculation.

What evidence other than 'Papers' will there be?

With the sanctions, and the US blockade how did all of this oil get out?

We are not talking about a small amount here. The only way this much oil could have gotten out of Iraq is if we enabled it.

The "vouchers" were found and taken from Saddam's era of rule, not the Iraqi Council's....
Your points are irrelevant.

The information and the links speaks for themselves, despite your efforts to discredit. Carry on though.


regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Shoktek
Exactly...of course its just another great opportunity to smear france because they didnt support the war. Need to see some real facts about this speculation.

[Edited on 31-1-2004 by Seekerof]

Obviously Shotek, you don't read to well or have a problem understanding what the articles imply?
They involve far more than France........

The edit on your post was due to an error on my part of not looking at the word "quote" and hitting "edit" by mistake and then typing my response, thinking it was under "quote"...my apologies.


regards
seekerof

Arch....your lack of research into this matter is quite self-evident...you comment:

"With the sanctions, and the US blockade how did all of this oil get out?"

Try the UN's "Food for Oil" Program.

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
The "vouchers" were found and taken from Saddam's era of rule, not the Iraqi Council's....
Your points are irrelevant.

The information and the links speaks for themselves, despite your efforts to discredit. Carry on though.

The words are from the Iraqi puppets. They have no credibility. It is quite relavant. Without evidence other than papers that can be forged all we have here is a poor attempt at international slander.

How did all these millions of barrels of oil get out of Iraq?

Again, your research is flawed.
The "words" are what? Because they had them put in an Iraq paper makes them less credible?

The "vouchers" were written prior to the Iraqi Council bing in existence, by the people involved with Saddam's regime....again, point is irrelevant!


As to this:

"How did all these millions of barrels of oil get out of Iraq?"

Read right above your last post.


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 31-1-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Arch....your lack of research into this matter is quite self-evident...you comment:

"With the sanctions, and the US blockade how did all of this oil get out?"

Try the UN's "Food for Oil" Program.

In the UN oil for food program was not a free license to export oil. It was all controled by the UN. Any ships leaving Iraq with oil in this program were know by the US.

We have, and had complete control of the Persian gulf. Any ships not authorized by the UN program would have been stopped and searched as numerous were durring the sanctions.

We are not talking about a small amount of oil. No one hid this in their underpants. It would be many shiploads of oil that were not capable of getting past the US blocade.

The "vouchers" were written prior to the Iraqi Council bing in existence, by the people involved with Saddam's regime....again, point is irrelevant!


Or they were forged by America, or by the council, or by someone else seeking to gain favor with the occupational regime.