After all.. What do you mean by Time?

Originally posted by StellarX

What does that mean?

The things that are done, are done through and of eternity. Eternity is timeless and you are finitely here to experience it.

We have little or no evidence that we live eternally so how could we grasp what it might be like? Why don't your reign in your imagination and concentrate on the few things we do understand about our world?

Whether we live forever or die eternally is of no consequence and can not be proven. What matters is how we treat one another with the time that we have while here. I am your world, perhaps it would better you to understand me, and us to comprehend each other.

How are we 'constituents of eternity' and what does that mean? Don't we experience a beginning and an end because we are born and we die?

Energy is eternal. We are, and are of energy. Yes, we do experience beginning and end, yes we do live and die at least in these vessels for the consciousness. Anything else hasn't been proven and I don't foresee how it ever would be. Eternity is an immeasurable presence, of this immeasurable presence is atoms, elements, photons, electrons, etc. Those are the constituents of eternity. Anything that you put a label on is a constituent of eternity.

According to main stream physics energy perpetually changes form so time is not even irrelevant for energy.

True, because we are energy and time is relevent for us, at least at this current evolutionary state, who is to say that we won't ever think our way out of it? Not I. Energy is eternal, eternity is timeless. To say something is timeless is not to say that it can't change forms. In fact it is completely static and perpetual. Perpetually static because its constant is change and that is the only thing that is never changing, yet it is neither created not destroyed.

Everything that interacts with its environment in self interested ways experiences the passage of time/changes in environment.

Correct, though I would not limit it to "self interests". Time is our measurement of change/motion, therefore change/motion is our measurement for time.

How can something exist and not exist? Please explain how we can experience something that simply has no basis in reality.

Well, for us to do that you'd need to first prove reality exists and then outline the parameters for such a case. A brilliant man once stated "reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Hence the one.

And this is a non sequitur until you define what 'no time' is.

Without beginning and without end. Eternity, yet not limited to eternity, as those finite entities existing of eternity experience time while being of eternity.

We don't know that the universe will exist for eternity.

If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then what does that tell us about the "universe"?

Originally posted by StellarX

Our descriptions or standards for measurement might not exist but then that's what you should say instead of arguing that 'time' does not.

You're right here. I did mis-word what i was trying to get across.

Originally posted by StellarX

To suggest that change will not happen for absence subjective or objective descriptions is just not accurate.

The point I was trying to make here, was that what good are the events to happen if no one is there to record them. In my eyes if no one is there to record events, they might as well not have happened.

Originally posted by StellarX
Sure it's complicated and that's why it's always better to read a few books before you say anything on any topic! That's why i get very irritated with 16 year olds that have the audacity to want to 'change the world' without any background as to what happened before or what may result!

If such people feel compelled to action i suggest they find a treadmill and exercise while they inform themselves.

Stellar

Reading books to reply to the question originally purposed would not be answering the question. The op clearly asked what YOU mean by time, not what the guy who wrote a book means by it.

Do not be fooled by my name, if you are hinting at age. And I highly doubt anything ever said in these forums will "change the world".

[edit on 8-11-2007 by spaceman16]

THE EARTH IS FINITE,THE UNIVERSE IS FINITE,ALL ATOMIC PARTICLES ARE FINITE. IN THE END THERE WILL BE NO EARTH,NO SUN,NO STARS,NO UNIVERSE AND NO MATTER AND CERTAINLY NO TIME WHICH DOES NOT EXIST EXCEPT IN THE MINDS OF PRIMITIVE CREATURES THAT INHABIT THIS ROCK.

Originally posted by spaceman16
You're right here. I did mis-word what i was trying to get across.

Ok...

Originally posted by StellarX
The point I was trying to make here, was that what good are the events to happen if no one is there to record them. In my eyes if no one is there to record events, they might as well not have happened.

Well 'good' is a once again a very subjective term that presumes that events must be observed by us ( since we don't know about anyone else) to be important. That is rather arrogant point of view and if we are to believe in anything like the evolutionary theory a great many things needs to happen without intelligent observation before the possibility for such arises.

Originally posted by StellarX
Reading books to reply to the question originally purposed would not be answering the question.

But it would provide the background that could enlighten you as to what route to follow towards answers?

The op clearly asked what YOU mean by time, not what the guy who wrote a book means by it.

I am not here to tell you about just my opinions and unless one can find some support for one's theories it's best to remain silent and continue studying.

Do not be fooled by my name, if you are hinting at age. And I highly doubt anything ever said in these forums will "change the world".

My previous statement were rather rude but if you are much older than that i can't spare far more sympathy given that i simply did not have views about issues before i read some proper texts on the subjects. What did you read to led you to you current views?

Stellar

Originally posted by ronbn56
THE EARTH IS FINITE,

Sure looks that way.

THE UNIVERSE IS FINITE,

Says who and based on what evidence?

ALL ATOMIC PARTICLES ARE FINITE.

Oh right and that must explain where the four fundamental 'forces' derives their powers from?

en.wikipedia.org...

IN THE END THERE WILL BE NO EARTH,

In most models there will always be a Earth even if it will lose some mass ( solar expansion and the like) and it's atmosphere.

NO SUN,

So where is our sun going to go according to you?

NO STARS,NO UNIVERSE AND NO MATTER

Where is it all going to go! We are still observing the formation of galaxies ( to say nothing of stars) so what do you propose will happen to prevent this and when?

AND CERTAINLY NO TIME WHICH DOES NOT EXIST EXCEPT IN THE MINDS OF PRIMITIVE CREATURES THAT INHABIT THIS ROCK.

Speak for yourself!

Stellar

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
The things that are done, are done through and of eternity. Eternity is timeless and you are finitely here to experience it.

And what does that mean? What can we possibly know about eternity if it's eternal? How do we know for sure we are 'finitely' here?

Whether we live forever or die eternally is of no consequence and can not be proven.

Exactly.

What matters is how we treat one another with the time that we have while here. I am your world, perhaps it would better you to understand me, and us to comprehend each other

Unless you use the same approach and reason in anything like this manner! Sure it matters how we treat each other while we are here but how does the nonsensical seeming things you are saying help us towards that goal ?

Energy is eternal.

By definition, yes.

We are, and are of energy. Yes, we do experience beginning and end, yes we do live and die at least in these vessels for the consciousness. Anything else hasn't been proven and I don't foresee how it ever would be.

Ok....

Eternity is an immeasurable presence, of this immeasurable presence is atoms, elements, photons, electrons, etc. Those are the constituents of eternity. Anything that you put a label on is a constituent of eternity.

How can we say what eternity is beside by means of definition? Why do you say we can not measure the 'presence' of elements/atoms/electrons etc?

True, because we are energy and time is relevent for us, at least at this current evolutionary state,

How can time ever cease to be important? How do you think we will attain a state where there is no change ( time) ?

who is to say that we won't ever think our way out of it? Not I.

Who is to say we are living in some kind of 'matrix' where what we experience is so completely unconnected with reality?

Energy is eternal, eternity is timeless.

How do we know energy is eternal beside for the fact that it suits our current models if it turns out to be?

To say something is timeless is not to say that it can't change forms. In fact it is completely static and perpetual.

How can it change form and be static and perpetual? How can we say anything is timeless?

Perpetually static because its constant is change and that is the only thing that is never changing, yet it is neither created not destroyed.

So something can be unchanging trough change? Do you read what you type?

If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then what does that tell us about the "universe"?

We don't know that it can't be created or destroyed and you would be well advised to study the few 'scientific claims' you seem to think your interjecting.

Stellar

Originally posted by spaceman16

No bleh's. You're understanding what I mean.

The question still remains, If i cant see something, does that mean it exists?

If you say yes. Prove it.
If you say no.Prove it.

if i ever met you i could prove it easily..
ill grab a bat.. and tell you to close your eyes
then bash you in the knee

you would then argue that when your knee was bashed the bat didnt exist.. neither did your knee.. or me.. or you for that matter.
yet you still feel pain with your eyes closed.. you didnt see the pain tho so its not there either..

the pain.. you didnt see it but you experienced it.. so its there.
does sound not exist? cant see that either... now.. then again i could kill you and incinerate you.. id still be here.. even tho 'you" only exist as carbon ashes..

something being percieved and something existing is not the same thing.
because something is not percieved does not mean it does not exist.

i feel like im trying to explain peek-a-boo to someone that is entertained by it.. someone older than 1 years old.. and your saying its a valid form of entertainment.. im making a similie here.. before you even disregaurd everything else ive said and jus comment on this part..

B-L-E-H.

Originally posted by GlahES

if i ever met you i could prove it easily..
ill grab a bat.. and tell you to close your eyes
then bash you in the knee

you would then argue that when your knee was bashed the bat didnt exist.. neither did your knee.. or me.. or you for that matter.
yet you still feel pain with your eyes closed.. you didnt see the pain tho so its not there either..

the pain.. you didnt see it but you experienced it.. so its there.
does sound not exist? cant see that either... now.. then again i could kill you and incinerate you.. id still be here.. even tho 'you" only exist as carbon ashes..

something being percieved and something existing is not the same thing.
because something is not percieved does not mean it does not exist.

i feel like im trying to explain peek-a-boo to someone that is entertained by it.. someone older than 1 years old.. and your saying its a valid form of entertainment.. im making a similie here.. before you even disregaurd everything else ive said and jus comment on this part..

B-L-E-H.

Originally posted by StellarX

And what does that mean? What can we possibly know about eternity if it's eternal? How do we know for sure we are 'finitely' here?

Do you not see the vessels of your fellow creatures pass away before your eyes?

Sure it matters how we treat each other while we are here but how does the nonsensical seeming things you are saying help us towards that goal?

Because they are not nonsensical. The only way to be non-"sensical" is to be dead. We sense everything and it all makes sense or we make sense of it. If we calm down and stop calling each other non-sensical and illogical, then we can be patient enough to understand each other, all the time, or funny enough to enjoy life so that it doesn't matter so much. Some people become so analytical that they lose touch with fellowship and become a one sided coin.

By definition, yes.

Then what does that tell us about existence/universe? Eternity is not only a measure of time but it is also a definition of space. So if you agree that energy is eternal then you must also agree that there is no expansion and implosion occuring, rather space and time are eternal by default of energy's definition. That is unless you are going to rewrite relativity and physics and separate "space and time".

How can we say what eternity is beside by means of definition? Why do you say we can not measure the 'presence' of elements/atoms/electrons etc?

Think of it like this. The universe is an immeasurable presence and we are measuring absence, or rather our measuring is of the present void. Did you ever think you could be measuring absence? Well you are.

How can time ever cease to be important? How do you think we will attain a state where there is no change ( time) ?

We can only speculate, and to be honest; I don't like speculation much unless it is in good intent and fun imagination. The truth is we're already there, the dissapointment is getting people to realize that contradiction is existence.

Who is to say we are living in some kind of 'matrix' where what we experience is so completely unconnected with reality?

What is reality? Yes we live in a matrix mathematically. We are ever connected to anything and everything. There is no separation, separation is a delusion derived of low awareness.

How do we know energy is eternal beside for the fact that it suits our current models if it turns out to be?

We can not lose energy. There is only transmutation of particles, atoms, molecules, forms, shapes, compositions etc.

How can it change form and be static and perpetual? How can we say anything is timeless?

Is perpetuity not a state of static? Is static not perpetuous? Because we are allowed to say it, thus it is true, thus we must understand what it means and how it can be. Eternity is timeless, our finite experience here grants us the ability to experience time while of eternity.

So something can be unchanging trough change? Do you read what you type?

Correct. Yes I do read what I type. If something is eternally in change, then it will never change those attributes, thus it is a static system.

We don't know that it can't be created or destroyed and you would be well advised to study the few 'scientific claims' you seem to think your interjecting.

Some of us don't know, others do.

[edit on 16-11-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

I, think i'm just going to watch you guys battle it out....lol

il bump this because i can

and yes spaceman.. i do that alot.. watch them battle it out

make a comment.. get maybe once reply.. and none after my reply to theirs.. and they argue with others.. its making my head inflate.

^_^

-G

reply to post by StellarX
WHERE DOES TIME BEGIN AND WHEN DOES IT END? WHAT WAS THE DATE TIME BEGAN AND AT WHAT DATE WILL IT END? WHERE DOES SPACE BEGIN AND WHERE DOES IT END? TINY EARTHLING MINDS CAN NOT COMPREHEND THAT TIME IS NON EXISTANT AND MATTER IS ONLY TEMPORARY AND THAT WHEN ATOMIC PARTICALS KNOWN AS ATOMS COME APART AND EVENTUALY JUST WEAR OUT THERE WILL BE ONLY NOTHINGNESS, AND IN THAT NOTHINGNESS THERE WILL BE NO TIME BECAUSE THERE WAS NEVER ANY TIME AND THE ONLY THING THAT WILL LAST FOREVER IS THE ABSENCE OF MATTER. FEAR NOT OH FEARFUL ONES, THERE ARE OTHER UNIVERSES THAT ARE NOT MADE OF MATTER.THERE IS MAN TIME, EARTH TIME,UNIVERSE TIME AND INFINITE TIME, BUT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TIME AS IT RELATES TO NOTHINGNESS. IN OTHER WORDS IT A TEMPORARY RECORD OF OUR EXISTANCE AS WE RELATE TO THE TEMPORAY EXISTANCE OF THE EARTH AND THE UNIVERSE.

Originally posted by ronbn56
WHERE DOES TIME BEGIN AND WHEN DOES IT END? WHAT WAS THE DATE TIME BEGAN AND AT WHAT DATE WILL IT END?

Well they supposedly have a few dates you can choose between if you go with the big bang models; let me know which one you favour as i don't even like the bang models anymore

WHERE DOES SPACE BEGIN AND WHERE DOES IT END?

Or does it? Do you know?

TINY EARTHLING MINDS CAN NOT COMPREHEND THAT TIME IS NON EXISTANT AND MATTER IS ONLY TEMPORARY AND THAT WHEN ATOMIC PARTICALS KNOWN AS ATOMS COME APART AND EVENTUALY JUST WEAR OUT THERE WILL BE ONLY NOTHINGNESS,

Speak for your own , presumably small ( ?), mind! Your or our incomprehension is certainly not evidence that what we are trying to is simply not comprehensible! Atoms do not simply come apart and i am wondering who started that particular rumour!

AND IN THAT NOTHINGNESS THERE WILL BE NO TIME BECAUSE THERE WAS NEVER ANY TIME AND THE ONLY THING THAT WILL LAST FOREVER IS THE ABSENCE OF MATTER.

How you then managed to find time enough, when you could not find the time to study the issue, is quite beyond me.

FEAR NOT OH FEARFUL ONES,

What is there to fear other than people who either can't find the caps lock key or just leave it on?

THERE ARE OTHER UNIVERSES THAT ARE NOT MADE OF MATTER.THERE IS MAN TIME, EARTH TIME,UNIVERSE TIME AND INFINITE TIME, BUT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TIME AS IT RELATES TO NOTHINGNESS. IN OTHER WORDS IT A TEMPORARY RECORD OF OUR EXISTANCE AS WE RELATE TO THE TEMPORAY EXISTANCE OF THE EARTH AND THE UNIVERSE.

Without freedom of expression forums such as these would have been pretty boring places. Thanks for letting us know 'how things are'.

Stellar